I been trying to think about the list while writing it...

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Mr. anderson
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I been trying to think about the list while writing it...

Post by Mr. anderson »

After suffering a horrendous defeat against Vampire Counts a couple of days ago (the only thing I killed that stayed dead was a corpse cart), I went back to the drawing board (well, excel anyway - brilliant for playing with army lists by the way - who needs army builder?) and came up with something like this:

Dreadlord (goes in Black Guard)
-Armor of Darkness
-Pendant of Khaeleth
-Crimson Death

Sorceress
- Level 2
- Tome of Furion
(Lore of Shadows)

Sorceress
- Level 2
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Dispel Scroll
(Lore of Metal)

Death Hag
- Cauldron of Blood
- BSB

35 Warriors
- Standard, Musician

13 Crossbowmen (One Sorceress here)

19 Crossbowmen (Other Sorceress here)

5 Dark Riders
- Musician

5 Dark Riders
- Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

14 Corsairs
- Full Command
- Sea Serpent Standard

14 Witch Elves
- Full Command
- Banner of Eternal Flame

19 Black Guard
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

War Hydra


So the thoughts behind the list?
Well the idea is that the flaming witch elves will mess up monsters, especially those with regeneration. What has me particularly excited is that with hatred in first turn even only 7 of them can wipe out that bastardly terrorgheist in a single turn (just to check - you CAN get flaming and poison on the same unit yes? no idea if i've missed something in that enormous rule book).

The Frenzied corsairs I'll use with the killing blow blessing for some nasty suprises for heavy cavalry. The sheer volume of attacks should take down four-ish knights, then they'll take a few casualties and take down the rest the turn after unless it is a deathstar bus type thing.

The black guard with dreadlord should be able to take out elite-ish units or even knights if things are desperate, and they don't necessarily need a blessing to be effective, although I'm thinking that with a 5+ ward they'll be much improved.

The harpies and dark riders are chaff/redirectors because obviously the blessing goes on a single unit at a time so I prefer to deal with threats one at a time.

I had five Cold One Knights instead of the Dark Riders but the worry is I won't have enough redirectors and too many units that could potentially need the cauldron at the same time. Originally I was thinking to take them as something to work with the spearmen as a flank charge and give the extra attack blessing. They could have waited it out and protected the cauldron (with stupidity re-rolls coming in as a neat bonus). The spearmen can hold out on their own for a while especiall in vicinity of the general and BSB so I can wait until nobody needs the blessing, then charge in. But that job can be taken by the hydra, or I can charge the hydra in, win the first round of combat and then follow up with spearmen or some such.

The shadow mage and metal mage are just there to help me with debuffs and the metal default spell to take out small knight units/reduce them in size to be chewed up by corsairs.

Enough waffling and on to the question - not having played warhammer in so long I've absolutely lost touch with whether or not what I'm thinking can be translated into the game well enough, and whether I'm missing something glaringly obvious here... It is meant to be a sort of all comers type list, not only to take out vampires (although admittedly when writing the list I was thinking about vampires most of the time).

Alright, now its really enough waffling.
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Post by Red... »

Will provide detailed comments when I get the chance.

But two quick comments first

1: why the 2 level 2s? I ask because Vamps magic is quite important to dispel and it strikes me that a Level 4 would be better equipped to do this. I would suggest instead a level 4 with sacrificial dagger (to go in with the warriors) and a level 1 with a dispel scroll. That way you still have two mages for offensive casting, can still get the two signature spells you want, but also get a +4 to cast and a +4 to dispel, which is really helpful. It doesn't cost that much more either, and you could get the extra points by making the change suggested with regard to the Dreadlord below...

2: Why the Dreadlord on foot? He doesn't add that much combat power above that possessed by a master (or even a BG champ armed with Crimson Death or the Whip of Agony) but costs a ton. I'd replace him with either a Master or the champ equipped as mentioned). Then you can free up points for other things (e.g. the level 4 mage I mentioned above).

I also use Excel for list building - never had any problems with it and think it's probably the best kit out there for doing it :)
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Mr. anderson
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Post by Mr. anderson »

I've been agonising over the dreadlord - it's a cool model and I like the idea. More importantly, I put him in the unit so it can take on another elite unit with a lord level fighter in it. On their own the black guard seem a bit... meh. Lots of armor piercing attacks and such but it feels like I'd then be better off with 10 cold one knights due to higher strength and more resilience, not to mention the mobility.

Using the master instead I can't get him a 1+ armor, armor piercing strength 6 at initiative 8 and the inverse ward. If I plan on hammering the Black Guard straight at the most dangerous target I always really feel like I need the dreadlord. That being said, it is just a gut feeling, I don't really know.

You're right on the level 4. Every time I look at the list I take out the 2 level 2s and replace them with a level 4 but then I go back and change it next time I look. Level 4 and level 1 I hadn't really thought of before and it might just solve that dilemma at least.

I'm not so sure on the sacrificial dagger in my main unit of warriors - they're there to hold the line along with the black guard to stop/beat two units that make it past my redirectors and buy me some time to chop things up with the witch elves, corsairs and hydra. A sacrificial dagger waving sorceress creates two problems. Firstly, stabbing members of the doorstopper warriors seems dreadfully counterproductive. And secondly, I really don't want that level 4 in there when the warriors take on a horde of skeletons with Vlad von Carsetin in it.

The solution to that dilemma would be to have a separate bunker for her which I was thinking about (in fact I already organised 20 zombies to be converted to slaves) but I'm running out of points to be honest - to get to ETC level I'd need to drop 100 points anyway.

One solution would be to drop Black Guard and Dreadlord altogether for 10 cold one knights but that would just feel odd... After sticking with my black guard all through 6th Edition it would be disrespectful to drop them now that they're useful :S

I'm open to ideas though, and I really liked the level 4 and level 1 suggestion. I'll tweak some more...

The beauty of excel is I can just go and see what happens and tweak without things getting crossed out... it gets addictive, really. I always get another idea that could fit and might work better and then i start tweaking again.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Looks like a reasonably sold army. Most don't play a Dreadlord on foot, but I think it can be interesting and effective if you have only infantry as your combat troops.

Lore of Metal on the second caster is just ok in my book. Yes, the signature spell can be good against armored vampire characters, and at the very least will draw out dispel dice. But it isn't a great lore if your opponent fields a lightly-armored army, and it is lacking against Vamp players who field lots of single-base spirit hosts as harassment units. I would probably take Lore of Death since it can be used for character-sniping and can also take out single (unarmored) models like spirit hosts and war machines if you are facing them.
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Post by Romark »

I've used the Level 4 and Level 2 before, never thought to myself to gain a bit more points and leave it at level 1. Worth thinking of for next one.

Would fire (inevitably Fireball) not be a better option to Death on a lvl1, as it can hit units better than death (inc ethereal), and sniping is likely going to be targeted for dispelling, so a Level 1 is unlikely to get it off unless throwing 6+ dice at it...
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Fireball is good against ethereal units, but Death Sniping also works well against the single-base Spirit Hostx and is flexible in that it can get characters too. Plus he already has the Ruby Ring. Could be good to fit Lifetaker in here.
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Post by Mr. anderson »

Taking into account the suggestions I"ve done some tinkering and came up with this:

Dreadlord (goes in Black Guard)
-Armor of Darkness
-Pendant of Khaeleth
-Crimson Death

Supreme Sorceress
- Level 4
- Sacrificial Dagger
(Lore of Shadows)

Sorceress
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Dispel Scroll
(Lore of Death)

Death Hag
- Cauldron of Blood
- BSB

30 Warriors
- Standard, Musician

14 Warriors (sorceress bunker)
- Musician

17 Crossbowmen (Other Sorceress here)

5 Dark Riders
- Musician

5 Dark Riders
- Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

14 Corsairs
- Full Command
- Sea Serpent Standard

14 Witch Elves
- Full Command
- Banner of Eternal Flame

19 Black Guard
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

War Hydra

The lore of Death sniping is actually a very good idea Dyvim - especially with the terrorgheist being leadership 4, I can at least soften it up a little and provide some redundancy together with the witch elves. Combined with the debuffs from shadow I think the black guard can do without the cauldrons blessings if necessary, I can use the cauldron's blessing on another unit.

Is 14 warriors enough for the sorceress bunker? They can protect the BSB behind the main battle line from fast cavalry and flyers a little. I'm thinking that a maximum of 3 per turn should be used up. Thanks to the BSB, panic tests induced by excessive daggering aren't that much of an issue. That way the sorceress will be out of fuel after turn 5 if I keep at it at the rate of 3 a turn. The solution is to either stab less, or take more warriors. Preferably I'll leave one of them alive to not give away victory points for the unit.

I think I'll stick with the dreadlord on foot - Dyvim's point on an infantry based army convinced me to keep him in for the time being. The level 1 with the ring should work quite well as she can put out a lot of damage if need be. The magic phase should be quite a lot of fun with the combinations. I'd like the lifetaker in the list but I can't see where to drop points to fit it in - suggestions?
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Post by Omnichron »

14 man bunker is ok, 19 man bunker is better :)

I really don't feel the need for dark riders in your army, especially not against VC, and I'd consider spending those (tons) of points on more warriors on that 30 block and witch elves. I'd reconsider the use of corsairs for something else, but if you feel like they can do they job with KB, keep using them. Personally I feel like 2 units of spear elves is better.

Other than that, I think you should have your death sorc with the BG and the lord, giving her LD 10 to snipe down whatever he throws at you. It means he has to get into close combat with that unit or get most of his things sniped.

All in all, I think fleshing those units out a bit can help you a lot. Remember that he can field a VC lord which kills about 10 elves each round of combat with ASF... that means there's almost nothing left when you get to strike back with most of your army. KB with about 40 spear elves can take that lord out without much points lost (as such a unit is cheap).
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Post by Rabidnid »

I really see no need for the DL or all those DR, give the champ in the Bg the crimson death and drop a unit of DR. You can kill any characters with directed KB from the corsairs witches or BG.Buff the corsairs and withes to 20 or so and give the hag manbane. VC units tend to be big and regenerate, so combat will rarely be over in a single turn.

You should still have a few hundred ppoints after that so look at a master in a unit of CoKs with the ASF banner. PoK and soulrender on the master will certainly handle most things since he gets to strike at initiative due to the ASF banner.

Also stick magic banners on your spears, gleaming pennant and banner of discipline are both good choices. Your little spear block with the lvl 4 sorc general will be ld 10 if they have the banner of discipline.

The archers need a muso for free reforms.

Sorry for suggesting so many changes, but your list is just a little too 7th to be effective. I would just run a lvl 4 with shadow, ruby ring and a DS, and put the points for the lvl 1 towards the CoKs. That will leave you with 5 combat blocks and 3 redirectors backed by lvl 4 shadow and the cob.
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Post by Red... »

For some kicks and giggles I would change the Dreadlord's talisman from the Pendant of Khaeleth to the Ring of Darkness. He remains fairly durable in combat (4 WS7 attacks at S6 with AP and hatred, followed by 3 wounds and a 1+ armour save), but also gets the added bonus that most enemies will hit him in close combat on 5s and - perhaps most importantly - the entire unit becomes much much much less vulnerable to massed missile fire (even high elf archers will be hitting on 6s at long range, rather than 4s!). Yes, you lose the uber-broken ward save, but I'd argue that was more than balanced out by the bonuses imparted from the ring (and there's no chance that your gaming group will groan 'cheese' once the DL hits close combat). If you want some added magic protection in the unit, you can give the champ a null talisman (for a 6+ ward versus spells that allow saves) or the ring of hotek (although this is much nerfed these days).
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Post by Thanee »

Yeah, I kinda agree with Rabidnid there.

The Corsairs and Witch Elves need more numbers to be effective. Manbane is great for the WE champion.

The DR are pretty useless against VC. Harpies are much more efficient redirectors.

I would also go as far as taking out all the characters, except the Level 4 (I would play her with Lifetaker, Sacrificial Dagger and Seal of Ghrond) and the CoB BSB (and give the Warrior Bunker Standard of Discipline to get your General's Ld up to 10). This way you can put more and bigger combat units on the table.

A single, big unit of Warriors is fine as the bunker. Those are more of a reserve, anyways, and you can always relocate your Level 4 to the RXB unit when you need to march the Warriors into battle.

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Post by Thanee »

Rabidnid wrote:You should still have a few hundred ppoints after that so look at a master in a unit of CoKs with the ASF banner. PoK and soulrender on the master will certainly handle most things since he gets to strike at initiative due to the ASF banner.


If you play a unit like this, the Whip of Agony on the COK champ is a great addition.

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Post by Red... »

I'd politely disagree. The level 4 is essential for having a good magic offense and defence and the level 1 is vital because of the dispel scroll she brings (every time I go to battle without a dispel scroll I regret it). The Death Hag is crucial for the Cauldron she brings, which is a massive force multiplier. That just leaves the Dreadlord. There are pros and cons to taking him, but it's just the one model to decide about really, I'd say the others are all but auto includes...
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