1750 pts - Training list

[Daeron]

Greetings,

Going to warm up for some competition training. I'd like an all-comers list but the challenge is tough: 1750 points. It doesn't give enough room for all the goodies. I went low on chars to keep enough points free to the troops.

EDIT: updated 12/01

- Supreme Sorceress, level 4, Dispel Scroll, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Kaeleth, Black Dragon Egg (I can't resist this item, it seems), Lore of Shadow
- Cauldron of Blood, BSB

- 30 Corsairs, Musician, Banner, SSS
- 5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Musician
- 5 Harpies

- 20 Black Guard, Musician, Standard, Banner of Murder
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon

I could drop one unit of shades for something more combative, or both units for another collection of harpies and cold one chariots. However, given the combat nature of the list, I feel I could use some fire support and machine hunting. Furthermore, this list is deployed in 5 steps, making it likely I'll get +1 on the turn roll.

My biggest fear ought to be a mage that can blow away my shades in little time and use that to get an edge in VPs, but then.. I do have some dispelling abilities and enough support troops to keep some control on the field.

[Red...]

Looks decent. You have multiple 'killer blow' methods, ranging from the SSS Corsairs / Mindrazor / CoB combo, the Blackguard with -2 to AP setup and the two units of 9 shades. That means if one or even two of your options get neutralised, the third can still kick in and swing it. Nice balance there. You also have a good array of fast troops and the two blocks of infantry help to add bulk. The sorceress will do what she does well and not die easy. All solid stuff imo.

[Samusin]

... just thinking of running those corsairs in horde formation... with killing blow... (and allso without) verry frightning o0

[Cycloptic squirrel]

Looks solid as is, though I don't know if the pegasus is necessary. I'm assuming its there just to keep her mobile? I think she'd be ok on foot, which also gives her the option of joining the shades in a pinch and also frees up a chunk of points to play with. If this is a warm up list, try something you're not used to. I've had fun with a 5 pack of witches, especially with the cauldron nearby. Alternatively, you could put a champion with the ruby ring in the blackguard for some early game chaff clearing. You could just go for another pack of harpies.

[Daeron]

Thank you for the feedback. I quite like the list, but I also feel mortally afraid of having but few "strength" at the basis of all my attacks. An empire list with cannons, stanks and cavalry may really corner me there.. or a list that went heavy on the monsters. My lack of magical attacks or flaming attacks is a concern.. Enough to make me wonder if I should get the ruby ring of rhuin.

[Cycloptic squirrel]

How about a BG champion with Crimson Death? He'll die easy, but will likely get 3 S6 AP attacks in first.
As for all the monstorous cav out there - I'm not sure DE have a wonderful counter except for magic, which I think you are pretty solid on.

[Daeron]

Hmm.. I think the ruby ring would be more effective in that case. It could be made to work from a distance.

I could also trade egg for that ring but I like the egg because it enables me to charge once with my Sorc into combat, increasing the toughness to 6 and deliver 2d6 S4 impact hits.. once in the game. That's enough to take out a chaff unit. It feels like a nice trick up my sleeve should the sorc be hunted in her hiding spot compared to being forced out of hiding to make the item work.

Alternatively, it could be handy against a horde army where it could really deal a big blow to a unit and deny that unit a chance to charge. That could really mess up one's tactic. Either way.. It just felt like a neat trick to have

[Daeron]

It seems I miscalculated this list.. Odd. I was over the limit by 20 points. I dropped a Harpy and Corsair champion for it, but that doesn't exactly increase my confidence in the list. Especially the Harpy is dear to me. That one more body truly increases the resilience and attack power.

Perhaps I need the Lifetaker.. but can it really make the difference for the risk it places on my Sorc?

[Samusin]

well if you want a lifetaker, then change it with the egg... that seems for me the only real possilbe change

[Daeron]

I had two training matches at 1500 points in which I used a toned down version of the list. I dropped the BSB and two BGs, but to my regret I learned that this still keeps my list illegal: the Sorc is over the 25% mark. I'm annoyed by my carelessness there.

Still, it gave me a good sense of how the units work together. The list works but I made some mistakes and learned a lot. I also learned a few weaknesses of my list.

In a battle against High Elves, the Black Dragon Egg nearly killed a unit of Swordmasters. The shooting was just about sufficient to make the difference. I got lucky on the magic though, well.. my opponent's magic really stumbled and for a Fire mage that means my Shades gained a lot of freedom. The combat was heavy and the support from Shadow proved vital even though I cast the "omg!" mind razor only once to remove a pigeon. (Eagles they call them).

In a battle against Dwarves, I had a collection of odd rolls which pointed me at some weaknesses in my playstyle (and my opponent's for that matter). My opponent had a cannon and organ gun, 2 quarrelers, a hammer unit, bsb, gyrocopter. I skillfully placed my Sorc (and troops) at 25" distance from the Organ gun and cast Pit of Shades on it. He used a dispel rune... I smiled grudgingly, rubbing my hands at the propect of the next turn, until I learned he had more. o.O
My Sorc was a long distance from his quarrelers, and she had a wood covering her, but out of 25 shots he still scores 9 hits (6s to hit), 5 wounds (4s to wound), 3 fail to save (even though a third should have been saved). That was turn 1. Hm.
Better now than at the tournament, I suppose. I should have placed my Sorceress in my BG unit. My bad.

His Gyrocopter turned out to be T5, even though we were both sure it was T4 before I charged in with my harpies. The harpies fought a loosing battle, but never the less kept the Gyro busy long enough to stay off my back. That's something I might have been "more sure off" given some magic support (if it ever got through that is).

The Organ gun was taken down by DRs with a hand of luck they didn't get killed before that. Lesson learned: 2 chaff units needed to make sure 1 survives and don't rely so heavily on your Sorc to fix the problem.

My Corsairs run into a reformed block of Quarrelers and loose. It's a bit of a surprise, but it's almost tradition for that to happen between him and me, where I make a legendary poor roll and he makes a legendary good roll. However, looking back at it, it's pretty damn unrealiable matchup. My Corsairs pass their break test and break the unit in the next round. Lesson learned: his unit really really needs to be softened up a bit.

My BGs play the same game against his second block of Quarrelers, making mincemeat out of the unit. He keeps steadfast one round, breaks the next, runs off table. Lesson learned: I love that unit, but those 2 bodies I dropped really could have made a difference.

The DR's block the path of his hammerers, forming a congo line with their rear pointed at them. Only 1 survived their attack but the flee was a success. Lesson learned: one can show his arse to a Dwarf and live to tell the tale.

My conclusion is that, although my Sorceress is a vital part of my army, my army still has more potential than I feared without her. But I really need to be more protective of her and keep the bluff of big magic to let the little magic seep in.

These battles have really made me wonder if I shouldn't go for Lore of Metal.. but it's such a combat heavy army and I think that I may run into other issues with Metal.

[Samusin]

The DR's block the path of his hammerers, forming a congo line with their rear pointed at them. Only 1 survived their attack but the flee was a success. Lesson learned: one can show his arse to a Dwarf and live to tell the tale.

HAHAHAHA xD thats so haha lol can't stop laughing xD thats a good one

and about the bad rolls for you and godlike for the enemy... -.- I'm verry good with having that too lol (especialy if I play against skaven... seems my druchii not take them serious enough)

[Daeron]

In all honesty, barring a few rolls at the start, it wasn't as extreme as I may have displayed there. The start was mind blowing, but somehow.. it still worked out, partly because his game wasn't perfect either. I really should learn not to let my mind get blown away by a bad roll or two.

[Samusin]

I had the bad-rolls-for-me-great-for-enemy a complete game against HE once.. got friggin masacred... my mages both cast at irrisitable force 1st turn and both get sucked into void lol, my combat blocks get so bad rolls they almost all start to panic after turn 3 and the hydra got just smashed by 2 turns of bolt thrower :'( well that was just a extreme bad game lol

well a the start of a game it will not allways matter that much, if the rest of the game goes off well it would be more critical if the game is going towards his end -.-

[Daeron]

So I had a second game day with this list, but only a single battle that day. It was against the same Dwarf opponent. He had swapped around a few numbers but nothing major.

From my point of view, he placed (in order)
- Cannon
- Small unit of quarrelers
- Hammerers
- Organ Gun
- Large unit of Quarrelers
- Gyrocopter, behind the quarrelers

I placed:
- both Shades (near the cannon, after deployment)
- Sorceress, tucked behind a rock. I rolled "Steed of Shadows, Enfeebling x2, Pit of Shades". I decide to take Miasma, Enfeebling, PoS and Pendulum. I know mindrazor would be favorable, but I wanted to train on using the pendulum.
- Harpies
- Black Guard
- Corsairs
- DRs, which make a vanguard move closer to the quarrelers/organ gun but stay out of the organ gun's range.

Round 1 - me

Shades creep along the side of the battlefield, closer to the enemy and outside his quarrelers' arc. I moved my Sorc to my Shade units, out of the arc, but near the cannon. My corsairs and black guards advance to keep the threat real. The harpies approach the organ gun. The DR's move out of the right quarreler's shooting arc.

Magic sees my pit of shades dispelled with a rune. The miasma dispelled. The pendulum gets through and picks off two crew members from the cannon.
Sheer load of bolt volume blows away the final crew of the cannon and clears the entire flank for my Shades and Sorc.

Round 1 - him

Shooting happens. The Gyro tries to block the Corsairs and takes out a DR. The Organ gun blasts the harpies to bits but the quarrelers fail to deal any significant blow.

Round 2 - Me

The Organ gun gets charged by the DRs. The Gyro gets charged by the Corsairs, who fails to flee properly and gets destroyed. The run is too short to reach the quarrelers however.

Magic sees the large unit of quarrelers, facing the Corsairs, take a -3 to BS with miasma. The enfeebling on the organ gun gets dispelled. PoS fails (I think.. or it was dispelled)

Combat picks away a crewmember from the Organ gun, but looses one. He doesn't break.

Round 2 - him

The quarrelers shoot as they may, but fail to do anything noteworthy. My BGs are down a few though.
He moves his hammerers around, but doesn't charge.

Combat fails to harm the organ gun crew. They kill a DR and it becomes a loosing battle, but the DRs hold.

Round 3 - Me
Corsairs charge the large unit of quarrelers, profiting from the miasma on the stand and shoot. The BG's charge his other quarrelers.. and fail the charge. Oddly enough.
Magic sees the quarrelers in combat with the Corsairs enfeebled and miasma'd. I shoot some Quarrelers to help out the BGs.
Combat wreaks havoc in the quarrelers and Corsairs (bloody great weapons) but they hold the line.

Round 3 - Him

The hammerers charge the Dark Riders in the Organ Gun assault. Shooting takes a few BGs out.

Combat sees the Organ gun freed, and the hammerers reform to face my BG. The Corsairs punch through their Quarrelers and slaver away in the pursuit move.

Round 4 - Me

The Corsairs turn to endanger Organ gun and Hammerers. The BG try to charge the hammerers.. and fail again. Oddly enough

Stuck in a bad position, I place a unit of Shades in front of the quarrelers to block them. Magic sees the Pit of Shades scatter away from the Organ Gun, right onto an unfortunate Corsair who fails his test. The Pendulum deals a hit, but doesn't destroy it.

I take away the BS from the quarrelers, but the rest doesn't do much.

Round 4 - him

He charges the Shades with quarrelers and hammerers. For some reason I can't remember, I decide to flee. He redirects both into my BG. Both succeed their charge rolls.
The Organ Gun takes out the remaining Corsairs with ease. Combat sees the BG deal a few kills but take a great deal in return. They hold though.

Round 5 - Me

My fleeing shades rally, but remain in range of the Organ Gun. This would be the final face-off. I move my second unit of Shades in range and shoot the Organ gun, finishing it. Magic enfeebles and takes away WS of the hammerers. The Combat goes awry for my BGs never the less, who deal a few blows but get decimated. He reforms his quarrelers to face me, and his hammerers to run away.

Round 5 - Him

His hammerers run for it! His quarrelers take a long shot at my Sorc to no avail.

Round 6 - Me

I reason that I won't be able to shoot the quarrelers down, but combat might do it. I charge them, and he runs. The charge fails... sadly.


Pit of Shades finally comes through and does as is wished. It decimates his hammerer unit down to the BSB. Pendulum fails to kill him but it did scare him.. it did take out some quarrelers but they were still standing. The remaining shooting doesn't do anything against the quarrelers.

Round 6 - him

He rallies the quarrelers. The game is over.

All in all, I'm pleased with the performance of the list. Failing two charges with the BG stood between me and a crushing victory, I think. Once more my DRs succeeded in wearing the crown of utter and complete failure in combat: after bearing a year long record history of failure to do anything at all against Dwarven crewmembers they come back to show they "still got it". But then, they kept the organ gun busy... and that proved valuable too. I've ceased to have any expectations from them in this department though. They're clearly not made for combat against anything that isn't made of paper.
I'm glad how I handled the Organ Gun and its range, but feel a bit sad it took so many damn shots at it to take it down. Had this gone smoother.. again it could have been a grand victory.

My casting strategy worked fairly well... Using as little dice as required to get a reliable casting success I failed only 1 spell and had only 1 miscast which S10 hit was saved by the Pendant of Kaeleth.
I'm glad I tried out the pendulum.. It's actually a fun spell and can really help with warmachines on a distance or scare battle lines. It fails to do significant damage, but never the less it "helped". I purpusefully choose the pendulum for training reasons although I do think that mindrazor was the better option: it could have cleared the quarrelers in one go, and/or the Organ gun, not to mention the fight with the BGs would have been even scarier!

Both my opponent and I felt that this fight could easily have gone even further in my favor... from which I conclude I need to learn to make that happen and he concluded he needs to work more often with his Dwarves, perhaps change his list.