1500 pts - returning to WHF

[Skipjh]

Hi all
after hanging up the dice for several years, I am getting back into fantasy with my beloved Druchii. I have played a friendly 1k game just to get my head around the basic rules after watching a 2400pt competitive game.
After lurking on here for some time, below is my first crack at a 1500pt list. I would really appreciate any feedback or suggestions, especially as it comes to 1503 so I need to drop something!

SS, Lvl 3, ToF, Shadow - 240 pts

Master, BSB, HA, SDC, Soulrender, PoK - 163 pts (to go in Corsairs)

20 Corsairs FC, AHW 225 pts

10 RXB, Muso, Shields 115 pts

5 Dark Riders, RXB 110 pts

5 Harpies 55 pts

20 Black Guard, FC, Banner of Murder 320 pts

Cold One Chariot 100 pts

War Hydra 175 pts


So I would appreciate any thoughts. I have tried to get two good combat units (BG, corsairs with BSB), two supporting units with CoC and Hydra plus some redirectors. BG seem to be recommended as one of the better units for new-ish players to use?
In particular, would SSS on corsairs be of more benefit than the banner of murder on BG? Also thought about swapping Dark Riders for Shades, but figured the speed of the Dark Riders would be more useful?
I thought about the sac dagger but didn't think I would need more PD at this points level, and the necessary large warrior block would mean dropping corsairs or BG. Also thought about a Hag BSB CoB to replace the Master but then thought I would need to drop the BG, so wasn't sure the buffs from the CoB would be worth it at this points level on warriors / corsairs?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Jvh792]

LOVE the list. Very well balanced. You'll be hard pressed to lose a game. Don't be afraid to charge your BSB out of the unit into a monster or small unit of cavalry. He will do pretty well. Or set him up to get charge by the cav so u get max ward save from PoK. Monsters are ideal though.
I would say to drop 2 black guard to give the corsairs the sea serpent standard.

[Jvh792]

That extra punch will help them (with shadow magic help) to make them really scary in CC
Also, your hydra is a close combat unit. I've killed many hordes with just a single hydra.

[Skipjh]

Thanks Jvf for your feedback - I like the idea of dropping two BG for the SSS, although I guess that means I won't have the master able to charge out of it.

[Jvh792]

Why couldn't you charge him out of it? That just means that on the charge against a monster he is already +2 combat res above the monster.
You get +1 for the charge, and +1 for the BSB
If he does 1 wound, then +3. Almost any monster will break to +3 combat res. Unless it's stubborn. Make sure to check that.

[Skipjh]

My mistake - I hadn't really gotten my head around the changes to frenzy. After reading up the rules a bit more I now understad that as long as the Corsairs pass the Ld test to restrain the frenzy charge, the BSB can then charge out of the unit.

[Jvh792]

yup. Which they will pass with 9 rerollable

[lordkaiser]

Hi
Great army list but a few things which you can change.
I for one wouldn't go anywhere near the soulrender, 10pts for armor piercing on a great weapon is just not worth it, instead take whip of agony which is simply amazing for its price. Also unless you want your BSB to be a stand alone tank instead of a unit buff I wouldn't take PoK, but instead use the extra points for SSS or can take Armour of darkness if REALLY worried about defense.
Seeing as you already have a rank unit, I think that going all out attack and getting some witch elves w/ FC, witchbrew (instead of the SSS) and giving them the banner of murder to compensate for their lower strength than the black guard would suit your needs better.
In respects to rounding off your points I would give your master a shield and take away the Rxbow music for a perfect 1500pts

[Manit0u]

Yeah, master with armour of darkness and crimson death would work better here. You can then drop 2 bg (I'm assuming you're going to put your sorc and master in them) and get SSS on corsairs like it was mentioned earlier.

[lordkaiser]

Would you take the crimson death over the whip of agony? I personally like the idea of an an extra AP attack while also being allowed to carry a shield rather than just one more strength (and in this case allows the points to be rounded off). Meh its personal preference I guess. I also forgot about the min troop cap so corsairs w/ SSS would be best option.

[Omnichron]

Personally I'd favour something else than the BSB on foot with the corsairs. This is how I look at it

BSB on foot with all kinds of setup < Cauldron of Blood < BSB on pegasus with pendant, dragonhelm and great weapon (as well as mundane gear.

So, I'd either go with the cauldron or the pendant pegasus master. The latter gives you one more wound and T on your master and the mobility to get where you'll absolutely need something to take on the more difficult units... I think I've included him in over 90% of my lists this last half year.

[lordkaiser]

@Omnichron I understand what you are trying to say and I respect your massive experience compared to me with the dark elves, but my view is that I REALLY want that leadership re-roll and +1 resolution bonus to a main unit, things that are made harder (if not redundant) if you fly your BSB away to attack some random enemy. Basically I see the BSB as an augment character that should be camping in your unit of meatgrinders to make sure they don't run away.

[Manit0u]

Would you take the crimson death over the whip of agony? I personally like the idea of an an extra AP attack while also being allowed to carry a shield rather than just one more strength (and in this case allows the points to be rounded off). Meh its personal preference I guess. I also forgot about the min troop cap so corsairs w/ SSS would be best option.

AoD gives you 1+ save so taking a two-hander is in no way deteriorating for the build. More strength is also better than AP, since it gives you the same save penalty while allowing you to wound easier. For the same points, if you have the option to increase your save to 1+ without mount/shield, crimson death is miles better than the whip.

Gotta use those options while we still can. Stuff like AoD and BoM will be gone in the new book (seeing how there are equivalents in the BRB that cost almost twice as much).

[lordkaiser]

AoD gives you 1+ save so taking a two-hander is in no way deteriorating for the build. More strength is also better than AP, since it gives you the same save penalty while allowing you to wound easier. For the same points, if you have the option to increase your save to 1+ without mount/shield, crimson death is miles better than the whip.

That is true, but what you have forgot to mention is that the whip of agony is a beastmasters scourge, which gives the user an extra attack. Comparing points values to common magic items, every +1 strength is worth 20pts and every +1 attack is also worth 20pts. That means without factoring in the fact the whip of agony is AP or the fact it is a one handed weapon (allowing you to use a shield), it is just as valuable as the crimson death point wise, and is even better value when adding in the AP. I do admit it is personal preference and they are useful in different situations (and using AoD favours the death slightly more), but you can never say the crimson death is hands down better than the whip, especially not by miles like you stated.

[Manit0u]

Wasn't it changed so that for you to get extra attacks from magical weapons you need them paired?

[Fallenturtle]

Wasn't it changed so that for you to get extra attacks from magical weapons you need them paired?

except of course when the item itself is labeled "Extra attack" as the whip is labeled as in the latest FAQ....

[Omnichron]

@Omnichron I understand what you are trying to say and I respect your massive experience compared to me with the dark elves, but my view is that I REALLY want that leadership re-roll and +1 resolution bonus to a main unit, things that are made harder (if not redundant) if you fly your BSB away to attack some random enemy. Basically I see the BSB as an augment character that should be camping in your unit of meatgrinders to make sure they don't run away.

I understand that notion as well. I've used the master on foot with corsairs too, and although it works in some battles, I find him too voulnerable and slow against many opponents.

The thing with the pegasus master is that you can have him join the corsair unit just as much as the other master... the "problem" if you want, is that he won't get any look out sir against the most powerful shots while in the unit, but with pendant you have the same kind of save (5--). Also, the master gains +1 wound and +1T, which makes him much stronger. With the manouverability added to him, you can move about whenever you need to and charge/countercharge those things you might fail to take down with your corsairs.

I also keep my master close to my units in the beginning of the battle (although outside my units usually), and it's quite rare he is outside range from the most important units for those rerolls... It happens of course, but then I usually cover that side with my LD 10 Sorceress general (+1 LD due to discipline banner in the bunker she's in).

[lordkaiser]

Yeah that does make a lot of sense actually. I never really thought that my Pegasus chuck norris could be the BSB (in my list he's a dreadlord) cause I wanted the better LD from my general. Actually on that note I would be really grateful if you could give me some advice on my current list (I've had tons and its looking a lot better than it was) to really make it a tear-drinking slaughterfest competition stomping army . The board is called 2000pt rank and flank list, and thanks a ton in advance if you look at it and give some advice.

[Skipjh]

thanks everyone for your feedback and the very interesting discussions. I ended up going with the master BSB as is, and despite deploying terribly had a win in my first proper game, mainly thanks to some Hydra heroics.
I will definitely start getting together the bits for a Master on pegasus conversion though - thanks!

[Jvh792]

Hydra eats everyone FTW. so many games go to the hydra...

[Golden Spark]

probably why hydra is 70$ now lol