Trying to avoid the Witch Elf Crutch

[Dalamar]

After.. three games with a witch elf/cauldron horde I came to a realization...

They are insanely powerful, dishing out such a ridiculous amount of attacks that they can blend units on their own in a single combat round.
Which made me realized another thing. The unit costs upwards of 700 points, depending on Death Hag's loadout. While they are possibly the ultimate infantry blender and will even cavalry a pause due to the sheer amount of wounds they can cause (1s are bound to be rolled when you're rolling 20+ saves)
Which lead to a third realization... if this unit is so amazing, what if your opponent figures out a way to deal with it? What does the unit that costs 700+ points takes away from your army in the long run? Well, I decided to find out and he's my new list *without witch elves or the cauldron*

Lord:
Supreme Sorceress
Level 4 Dark
Black Amulet, Other Trickster's Shard, Tome of Furion
Cold One!

Yes, she's riding a Cold One, she will join a unit of Cold One Knights and almost always (or just always) take Power of Darkness for S7 knights and S5 Cold Ones (yep, S5 A2 mounts... who needs monstrous cav?) I'm potentially considering giving her Ring of Hotek for magical protection for the unit (since they can't make up for the damage with large number of wounds) but my worry is lack of protection for her when they get into combat. Perhaps she could then use the Opal Amulet? (4++ for the first wound)

Heroes:
Master
Battle Standard Bearer
Cloak of Twilight
Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak
Dark Steed

He'll ride around with Warlocks, either assisting them with flanking or charging out on his own and apply considerable punch to tough single monsters... skillcannons, hellcannons, ironblasters, chariots in general etc. Battle Standard means he can't really afford to lose combat, risk of breaking (and auto dying) is then pretty high... but with right choice of targets he should shrug off most shooting and not get hit back in close combat. Supports Cold One charges when necessary

Tullaris Dreadbringer
General

Yep, Tullaris for General, in a horde of Frenzied (thanks to Him) Ld 10 (thanks to Bloodwrack Shrine) Executioners

Core:

5 Dark Riders
Shields, Repeater Crossbows, Musicians

5 Dark Riders
Shields, Repeater Crossbows, Musicians

5 Dark Riders
Shields, Repeater Crossbows, Musicians

5 Dark Riders
Shields, Repeater Crossbows, Musicians

Plenty of fast avoidance and redirectors.

14 Darkshards
Banner of Eternal Flame
Musician, Standard Bearer

For those pesky regenerating units, can act as flanker if necessary (but not expected to)

Special:

9 Cold One Knights
Gleaming Pennant
Dread Knight, Musician, Standard Bearer

Sorceress' bodyguard and line punchers, 9 S7, 1 S4 and 10 S5 attacks if Power of Darkness goes off. Important to not let them get bogged down? Not necessarily... because next round they have 19 S5 and 1 S4 attacks. Gleaming Pennant for stupidity emergencies

27 Executioners
Banner of Swiftness
Draich Master, Musician, Standard Bearer

With M6 they can almost keep up with the knights if necessary, and can be a nasty surprise to your opponent who thought they'll sit just 1" over your optimal charge range and tease you. Joined by Tullaris and Bloodwrack Shrine they form a 10x4 horde

5 Harpies

Yep... harpies. I figured out a use for them (though I'd rather if they were cheaper but oh well...). Their job is to sit behind my units (as opposed to their old job of going forward to hunt war machines and risk themselves by being a pain in the opponent's butt. They will sit (likely behind Execs) to move, at the right opportunity, to create an advantageous position for me. Examples: Execs are about to get charged. Harpies land in front of execs so the enemy will overrun, giving me a magic phase to help execs, or even bring help through flanking or: Harpies fly forward to bend away a nasty frenzied unit (like cauldron witch elves?) and get them ripe for a flank charge or: harpies fly forward and release fanatics (because Dark Riders are too useful to waste them on fanatics). I was thinking a Medusa could also be an option but: If the opponent doesn't go for the bait... Medusa is very likely to just charge them herself with Ld 2 frenzy (though alleviated if she's supporting Tullaris with execs). M7 and no fly means she needs to be to the side of the unit instead of behind, exposed to shooting. only 3 W instead of 5 and no skirmish.

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower

They will form a shooting base with Darkshards, should be reasonably safe from chaff charging them (due to darkshards) and provide long range fire support

Rare:

Bloodwrack Shrine

One: I put a lot of work into this lovely model and I intend to use the hell out of it. Two: it allows for an easy Execs horde (although removing it would free up points for enough execs to fill the gap) with Ld 10 and -1Ld to the enemy (which with Shroud of Despair can be a game winning move) Magical attacks from the medusa's gaze can also be handy in a pinch if ethereals trouble you.

5 Warlocks

Magic support and surprisingly good flankers (for a fast cav unit at least)

Total: 2500 points exactly
Models: 86 (could use a bit more... but need to get used to how much more expensive Druchii got)

[Calisson]

Sounds very exiting!
Please batrep!

[Datalink7]

Looks solid for the most part.

I used the Bloodwrack Shrine in the last local tournament in a unit of Executioners (28). After the tournament my analysis is that it isn't worth it. Now, that was only three games but it was simply too vulnerable to cannonballs. Maybe I was unlucky in facing Ogres, Empire and DoC, but I would rather have just had more executioners. If you were to drop it you could bump it up to 40 Executioners and still have extra points left over.

I wanted to take it because I love the model. And if that's the reason you are taking it that's cool. But I think it isn't the most effective choice (though I could be wrong).

I actually think Harpies aren't too bad. Flying units are always useful, even as redirectors if not war machine hunters.

[xFallenx]

Yup. Bat Reps. I like the list & the use of the harpeis is a refreshing change. They still have great utility albeit at a greater cost, but in the hands of a skilled general they still offer too much to be ignored.

[Dalamar]

What I would still like to see in the list is a monster or two... but I just have nowhere to get the points from...

[Gidean]

Oh I like this list. You should do well! Please give us feedback when you can.

[Dalamar]

What would you think if instead of Level 4, it was a Level 2 with Tome (to ensure Word of Pain and one other spell... possibly Power of Darkness)? This would free me up some points for either a nice juicy monster or a small unit of sisters.

[Gidean]

What would you think if instead of Level 4, it was a Level 2 with Tome (to ensure Word of Pain and one other spell... possibly Power of Darkness)? This would free me up some points for either a nice juicy monster or a small unit of sisters.

No. I am sorry. Firm believer that a level 4 is necessary to push through and dispel magic.

[Thraundil]

Not taking a lvl 4 means you are almost an entire dice down on dispel attempts... Its a big one to miss out! And then, as DE nowadays if you want to skip the lvl 4, you may as well go without any sorceress at all, and use your warlocks as your lvl 2 wizard.

[Gerner]

Not taking a lvl 4 means you are almost an entire dice down on dispel attempts... Its a big one to miss out! And then, as DE nowadays if you want to skip the lvl 4, you may as well go without any sorceress at all, and use your warlocks as your lvl 2 wizard.

I disagree. If I don't have a level 4 I atleast take one level 1 to bring a scroll.
But then again, I never enter a battle without a scroll.

[Dalamar]

By the end of our last book I was playing without a level 4 and doing just fine.
I'd normally take warlocks bur they have access to specific spells and level 2 gives access to other spells (namely power of darkness and word of pain/shroud.

As for dispel scroll... I often play without any.

[Thraundil]

Correct, scroll is lifesaver against those times where winds of magic sees reasonably high double rolls. (4's or up). But, I consider scrolls a "nice to have" if there is a sorc in my army setup. I think paying 100+ points for a lvl 1 with scroll just to have a scroll... Sure, she gives a channel and access to a spell. If you take her specifically to get beast signature or PoD and toss her in with some knights, then by all means grab the scroll. But I never take a sorceress "just to carry a scroll". Lvl 4-less worked in 7th, and with warlocks now it will work even better as you can save a lot of points just having 2 units of 5 warlocks. They definitely still bring threats to the table imo.

[Cold73]

Personally i hardly ever go without a lvl 4, but that is personal preference.

If you want to go for a lvl 2 instead of a lvl 4.
Then you should really aks yourself the following question.
Do I really need the Power of Darkness for the +1S on you CoK?
The reason i ask is the following...with a 4 spells to cast you have plenty of threat and your opponent might well have to choose to if he wants to let another spll through or not. (dont forget there are only 2-3 spells in total from the Dark Magic Lore that an be cast when in combat.
With just a lvl 2...you need to use more dice then your opponent to have a chance to get it through...and that is actually the last thing you ever want to do when in such an expensive unit...a simple miscast...even a minor one...can devastate the entire unit.

[Dalamar]

Dark magic can cast 6 out of 8 spells while the sorceress is in combat. The two spells she can't cast are doombolt and chillwing.
Don't forget Hekarti's blessing making our level 2s equivalent to level 3s.
Power of darkness is of course not a must. Word of Pain is a must hence tome of furion. With Word of Pain, Soulblight, Doombolt and one more spell, tou have hardly any spells that hour opponent wants to see cast. They're all deadly.
Miscast remains a problem regardless of caster's level. Thankfully dark magic is incredibly easy to cast. 12+ for a boosted word of pain? Shadow wizards are jealous.

[Dangerous Beans]

I think that the addition of a monster would give you some extra target saturation for your army and also take some heat off the Shrine - which is a beautiful model and I fully think you should keep it; I've sadly yet to play a single game with the new book (thanks to work) but the excellent and detailed tactcs thread on the shrine sold me to the idea of being much better than many give it credit for.

Saying that, I really do love your Level 4's setup which does give the unit some protection from enemy cavalry killing characters / monsters. I think that the decision of Monster / Lev 2 VS Lev 4 is really how well that monster can support your cold one knight unit. Sadly I'm really overly enthused by either of our unit monsters (Medusa doesn't even count!) so I'd like to know more details on your thoughts as to which (I think the K-beast pips the hydra in most circumstances these days).

Certainly on the Level 2 front, I don't think that a scroll caddy is neccesary at all and believe quite firmly that we should play to our strengths as aggressive wizards; Tome of Furion is perfect for that. Frankly I don't think your army needs most of the Dark spells (other than a choice select one depending on your opponent, which the Tome allows! + Power of Darkness for the turbo-knights). I can see the argument in the Level 4 variety of spells allows a greater 'cloud of unknowing' on your opponents part, but really Doombolt and Soulblight on the Warlocks should have your opponent's alarm bells ringing badly enough anyway! If you do take the Lev 2, perhaps adding something simple like an ironcurse icon to give the knights some ward against warmachine hits (God forbid a cannoball striking their flank from an ill fated overun!) and maybe an opel amulet for that first miscast wound?

Keen to know more about the monster / army re-jig replacements if the Level 4 goes. I think I'd add more Warlocks to support the level 2 to be honest!

[Dalamar]

I rejigged it a bit and dropped darkshards and one of the dark riders unit.
Put back in their place is a unit of 21 witches (staying cheap with flaming banner so not a crutch) and banners for the three dark rider units (topping me at 9 fortitude).
With supreme sorc dropping to regular sorc (tome and opal amulet) it freed me up 180 points and here are my option:
Hydra with flaming breath to bounce into large low strength units and hold them up forever (and take some cannonfire away from shrine)
K-beast for more punchy punch and 20 points left for... something?
10 sisters of slaughter with full command for flanking action.
3rd Reaper and a unit of shades (160 so 20 points spare)
Scourgerunner and something (30 points extra... maybe pegasus for master if I can find another 10 points)

Currently hydra is the one written down but all options have merit (k beast the least as I already have an S6 horde and S6/7 knights)

[Clockwork]

I like the list! Though I think the first version is better with the Darkshards and level 4. I'd say give it a good play through before making significant changes. Whilst the monster would be nice, you've got enough high damage threat with the Knights and the Executioners.

I'm a personal fan of small units of Witches, but the 21 seems an odd number. In a list like this. Its the relatively exposed underbelly of the list and it will suffer for that (although, if you're playing the psychological game that may be what you want to ensure that your other units remain unscathed).

[Dalamar]

21 witch elves, fielded 7x3 are wide enough to maximize attacks against 5 wide defensive units, I also don't expect the third rank to ever reach combat due to shooting but if it does, the better for me!

I actually did make some more changes (I tend to do that before I get to play with a list... after a game the changes usually get more subtle)

now the core contains (instead of witches) 2 units of 10 darkshards one with flaming banner, one with scarecrow banner (had 5 spare points)
It also has The Scourgerunner and sorceress has ring of ruin instead of opal amulet (but putting amulet back on her would allow me to field one of our monsters or sisters etc.

[Gerner]

My experience with Dark Shards have let me to dish them.
I really want to bring them, but their shootning is just too unrealiable and doesn't do suffiecient damage.

[Dalamar]

Darkshards are made for clearing fast cavalry and small infantry units (or small 2+ cavalry units)
After those targets are gone... well, they can still flank or ping off a wound or two off of a larger unit.

[Ampao]

Very interesting list!

What would you take if there were no SCs allowed?

[Dalamar]

The idea behind the unit is important so I would bite the bullet and take Witchbrew Death Hag as my general (she's also cheaper and keeps her ASF but the -3Ld on frenzy could hurt)

[Dalamar]

So I've played a game against WoC today his army was:
Level 3 nurgle sorcerer on steed
Khorne DP (no wings)
Tzeentch BSB on steed
25ish Marauders
15 Nurgle Warriors
15 Nurgle Chosen (they got +1 save gift for a whooping 2+ save infantry)
7 Hellstriders
5 Tzeentch Knights
Hellcannon

So pretty small. We rolled up Blood and Glory which gave me a pretty sizable advantage (I had 10 Fortitude to his 5)

Overall Scourgerunner put 2 wounds on the DP (which was a pain in the ass to kill even with its rather low defenses of rerollable 4+ and 5++) and crossbows did almost nothing (or nothing really)
Knights played chess with the chaos knights on one flank (I had harpies and dark riders between them ready to double flee but he would not fall for it so we were just sitting there while in the middle Execs managed a charge on Chosen (thanks to Banner of Swiftness), killed 7 lost a couple back and I won combat by 6 points... -1Ld from shrine and chosen were holding on snake eyes, which they failed of course. By then DP ate enough bolts to make it croak and the Fortitude of Chaos was broken. At the bottom of turn 3, the game was over with a massive advantage for Dark Elves (All I had lost was a unit of crossbowmen who fled from the DP to get him stranded in the middle of the board... they succeeded with stranding the DP, but ran 12" and ended up off the board themselves... and 3 warlocks who were struggling with the Hellcannon (Actually I lost 2 to a miscast and 1 to hellcannon) which had pretty darn good save rolls, almost as good as warlocks' poison rolls)

[Datalink7]

Glad to hear it went well. Though, if I'm honest, that looks like a fairly poorly constructed warriors list

[Gidean]

Glad to hear it went well. Though, if I'm honest, that looks like a fairly poorly constructed warriors list

Agreed. Most certainly not an optimal list. But good show Dal.