Another ETC list, critique wanted :)

[Thraundil]

Greetings, one and all!

Theres a tournament in my local gamestore in 3 weeks time. I've been to two of their tourneys in the past year, and the local meta seems to involve one or two big combat units, as many war machines as one is allowed to take, and standard levels of magic with as much automatic PD and DD generation as is allowed. BS shooting seems to be limited to certain armies. Example from last tourney, I faced:

- A WoC list with hellcannon, 3 chimeras, big warrior block with disc tzeentch sorc and unkillable disc BSB, some hounds and some marauder horsemen.
- An empire list with 60 halbardier horde, 5 demis, 3 cannons, altar, 2x buff chariots and light council
- An orc list with 39 savage orcs with bows, maxed war machines and 12 trolls.

So pretty much; one or two combat units, and as much artillery as can be packed. Only the WoC played agressively, the other two lists were very content sitting back at max distance and pounding my monster heavy dragon list to pieces with their ranged firepower. This time I'm going with something different. The idea is to create a bunker for my supreme sorceress that is also a reasonably decent close combat unit - the bloodwrack shrine corsair tower. In addition, a big executioner horde with frenzy. A small WE speedbump block. One 5-man DR unit to screen the executioners from massed BS shooting in the first turn, one 5-man DR unit to threaten vulnerable stuff. A twilight pegmaster to hunt war machines, and 10 warlocks (could take 2x5, but I find that one unit of 10 is so much more sturdy). And 3 RBT and 6 shades. Alternatively, 4 RBT but losing out on the shades. I like the idea of having the shade drop.

Anyways, I always seem to write huge blocks of text... Heres the list:

Lvl 4, dark magic, scroll, ToP, ironcurse icon.

Master, dark pegasus, twilight, full mundane and lance

Death Hag, BSB, flaming banner, witchbrew

10 WE

2x5 DR, crossbows, shields, mus

21 Corsairs, ahw, FC, LD banner

30 exec, FC, swiftness banner

3x RBT

6 shades, ahw

Bloodwrack shrine

10 warlocks with master

My shooting is limited, and will focus mostly on clearing any chaff they might put in front of me so my executioners can make a march straight for the enemy combat unit(s). If I face a heavy shooting list, I may sit outside of close range for a turn and volleyfire / doombolt his archers down. By and large, cannons will be of limited use here as the bloodwrack shrine and pegasus master are really the only two good targets. I may even drop the pegasus master altogether, either to beef the corsair numbers or include more support troops, although I really like the twilightmasters utility. Death hag BSB is risky, but against non-hordes she will try to avoid being in B2B with too many enemies, and most hordes I will face will be low-S low-W probably. And I really wanted both movement and flaming banner in the exec unit. BSB carries the flaming, because if I face e.g. dragon prince bus or a character with 2++ vs flaming, she can jump ship to another unit in a tight spot.

I playtested the list in almost its current form the other day against a wood elf. He sported 47 glade guard models and a hail of doom arrow, it was a tight spot but I won despite a few mistakes. Vs him I had a master on foot in the exec unit with the ring of hotek, but I think that most horde-killer spells I will face will ignore wards (fiery convocation would be annoying, but I'll have a scroll for that). So I decided to drop him in favour of shades and a few more exec bodies.

The plan is very simply to beat the crap out of opponents. Back to basics since my dragon list fell through massively
Any advice, critique and comments are most appreciated. Thank you.

[MangoPunch]

I am no expert (more of a noob) but won't the 30 execs be a magnet for artillary? Might it make more sense to take a couple smaller units, and one or two more peg (or even dark steed) master(s)?

Is the Death Hag going with your exec or WEs? If you are worried about troll regen wouldn't it make more sense to give the WE's flaming attacks?

Why the level 4 and why Dark magic?

[Amboadine]

Why the level 4 and why Dark magic?

I would really ask, why not? Lv 4 is almost compulsory at tournaments and the extra +1 to cast for Dark makes a surprising difference.

I would stick with the 3 RBT and 1 shade drops rather than the 4 RBT. Those shades can get to places the RBT can't.

[T.D.]

Looks good.

No other comments - how good it is will only become clear through playtesting

[Thraundil]

30 execs will indeed be an artillery magnet. But with dark riders, pegmaster, shade and warlocks out there too, he will have to choose whether to shoot my combat block and then loose the artillery, or shoot the hunters and let the combat blocks close in... At least thats the hope. And a horde of 30 exec wont be that much easier to hit than 2x15, but their combat and staying power will be much higher. And the DH goes with them, giving them frenzy, which means strength in numbers! 2x15 exec with no frenzy that loses perhaps 7 models each before combat means 2x8 execs, which wont kill much. 30 exec with frenzy that loses 14 models before combat is still a 10 man frontage sporting 25 total attacks.

DH has the option of going with the 10 WE, sure. But thats a big target mark on a small unit, she wont be safe there.

And as for the lvl 4. Indeed, why not dark magic is a very strong allround lore I find, you get magic missiles with moderate strength, anti-BS magic missile (which will swing well to protect my army from big shooters), an amazing combat hex, a pretty decent horde thinner, and some strong utilities that the opponent potentially must worry about.

Yep, will definitely stick with the 6 shades. Will also force my opponent to be extra careful deploying.

T.D. - cheers I will try to find somebody who knows the ETC system and play them. As mentioned, I did play one game with an almost-identical list vs a WE, his shooting was a concern but once in close combat I mauled him. And with boosted word of pain spam on his treekin, he actually could never engage on my corsairs. So I feel comfortable advancing with the entire army at once, rather than exposing only the executioners to firepower.

[Marchosias]

If there are so many big units and artillery, what about a full scale avoidance list? Ignore the big block and kill everything else. It seems to me a much safer bet than trying to find out if 30 execs can kill 60 hallberdiers. Not that know something about ETC.
Word of Pain is amazing but you are by no means guaranteed to get it off. I have read your battle report - what would happen if, when you hexed the treekin prepared to charge your corsairs, your opponent had used a dispel scroll?
This is not to say your list would not work. I have just the feeling that you are trying to accept their game style instead of exploiting it. I may understand you wrongly, though.

[Setomidor]

I currently run a Lvl4 Dark on a Pegasus with the Cloak of Twilight, Dispel Scroll, and MR(1). From your description, it sounds like you would do extremely well with the same SS build in your meta since she would be extremely hard to catch and you can utilise spells like Black Horror from behind cover to auto-kill war machines en masse. I would put the regular 4++ on the Master on Pegasus instead, even though you would be giving up the benefit of KB and D3 wounds you would have a 4++ that also works in CC. Without a ward save in CC (or rerollable AS), you are taking a very large gamble with the Cloak of Twilight and I find that 3A is not enough to make this gamble pay off.

Why Corsairs instead of more Witch Elves? Is it a bunker for your Lvl4? If so, and if you put her on a Pegasus instead, I think three small units of WE would benefit you more than one small unit of WE and a medium sized unit of Corsairs. If you want to keep that construct, you don't really need the +1LD banner as you would be at 10 with the Shrine anyway.

I would also consider splitting the Warlocks into two units of 5 instead of one large unit. I have found that multiple chances to cast Doombolt can be extremely potent, and you would also mitigate the effects of panic on Warlocks (which is their biggest weakness).

Good luck, please tell us how it goes

//Seto

[Thraundil]

The WE numbers are a model issue. I own 10 WE, have promised myself not to buy more models until what I have are close to being painted. Otherwise, I'd run a two towers style list.

Corsairs are meant for SS bunker indeed. Shrine goes there also.

Warlocks run as 10 because I have experienced too often that my opponent directs shooting at them, they lose a few models and panic and run. With one unit of 10, I can rely on them to be able to advance a little more.

MSU was something that crossed my mind as well. What discouraged me was the orc-and-goblin player I met last tourney. He had so many doom divers that he vaporised my dark riders (yep, all of them) in the first 2 turns. And I dont have enough cavalry units to really make an effective avoidance list (since I would pretty much want all-mounted or close to).

Twilight sorceress on pegasus is definitely a possibility. I'm pretty set on this setup though, wanting to see how it plays. I will proceed to higher skillcap lists once I have the basics down

[Setomidor]

I see, but in the case of Warlocks you can only suffer one extra casualty before a unit of 10 Warlocks suffers a panic test compared to a unit of 5 (and for twice the cost). I would be very worried about losing the Warlocks to panic, so if you want a big unit I would ensure that the BSB is mobile enough to always be nearby.

[Babnik]

Twilight sorceress on pegasus is definitely a possibility. I'm pretty set on this setup though, wanting to see how it plays. I will proceed to higher skillcap lists once I have the basics down

I really don't see how giving a twilight cloak to flying sorceress is a good combo. The main value of this item is not the MR as you can get it with other item, but the killing blow and multiple wounds when charging. Are you going to charge anything with your sorceress on her little poney?

Cloak of twilight works great on a peg master with lance. Chariots, chimaeras, anything withouth ranks, several wounds and heavy save will fear it.

For the bikini dark biatch, if you really want to have it on peg (in ETC not the best combo), a common MR item would be better.

Personnaly, I think these costly ladies should ride a dark steed in 10 DR units. Giving MR and getting look out missy rule.

[Thraundil]

Ah Babnik, you misread what I wrote I think.

I am not running a peg sorceress. It was suggested to me by one of the others, in my list I will have a standard sorceress on foot

Setomidor; good point. The main value I get out of 10 warlocks is I feel like they can act both as hunters, flankers, but also as solo combat units. 5 locks will kill "almost" as much as 10, but only stick around for half as long. Not to mention if I charge e.g. 10 or 20 archers, 5 warlocks might get shot down and take a casualty or two, cutting their combat power by a lot, whereas 10 warlocks would take a casualty or two and fight on as if nothing happened. I've had very poor results from my 2x5 warlock setup, but almost exclusively positive results from my 1x10 block.

[Babnik]

It depends how you play your warlocks.
If you are afraid to see them being shot down, it means they were too close from the shooting unit because you gave them offensive task.
I like to field 10 warlock just to hide my SS L4 with MR 2 or 3 inside. Usually I stay away from light shooting and use them as L2 mage only. Only if I see a very safe charge (against chaff or weakened light infantry) I will play them more offensive way.
2x5 warlocks give you 2 doombolts and 2 soulblight per phase and 1 more dice for channelling. That's kool only if you bear in mind to position them safely against light shooters. Behind a forest, another unit.... Warlocks do not need to make vanguard move!

[Setomidor]

:shock: I really don't see how giving a twilight cloak to flying sorceress is a good combo. The main value of this item is not the MR as you can get it with other item, but the killing blow and multiple wounds when charging. Are you going to charge anything with your sorceress on her little poney?

The reason it works very well is that the Cloak confers a 3++ against shooting, and the extra MR(1) gives her an incredible 2++ against magic. You can't accomplish this with normal MR items, as they don't help against shooting at all, or even with normal Wardsaves as you cannot combine this with MR (since both Wards and MR are Talismans). Her protection and high mobility makes her extremely hard to kill for some opponents, and becomes a very efficient way of denying the enemy ~460 VPs. You should try it and see how you like it.

[Babnik]

:shock: I really don't see how giving a twilight cloak to flying sorceress is a good combo. The main value of this item is not the MR as you can get it with other item, but the killing blow and multiple wounds when charging. Are you going to charge anything with your sorceress on her little poney?

The reason it works very well is that the Cloak confers a 3++ against shooting, and the extra MR(1) gives her an incredible 2++ against magic. You can't accomplish this with normal MR items, as they don't help against shooting at all, or even with normal Wardsaves as you cannot combine this with MR (since both Wards and MR are Talismans). Her protection and high mobility makes her extremely hard to kill for some opponents, and becomes a very efficient way of denying the enemy ~460 VPs. You should try it and see how you like it.

I see your point but I think putting it to a flying master is better to get the close combat HUGE benefits. Put your SS safely in unit for LOS. You deny the points of SS AND you can get the points of many things thanks to the deadliest lance ever.

But that's only my very personal opinion....

[Gerner]

Looks like to be a decent list.
I only have a few thoughts..
From my experience I think the flaming banner will be used more often on the Corsairs since most of the units with regeneration or flammable will try to avoid your Executioner because of their already incredibly deadliness. Don't know if it makes sense?
I'm just thinking that I wouldn't throw my chimera or my trolls into that unit because of their high strength already -where as the Corsairs looks like something I could munch on, specially if I have regeneration!
Why have a master with the warlocks?
I would consider making the Master the BSB instead of the hag, but I can see how she is a lot more near the fight and he is away. She is just so damn squishy, and a challenge from anything with an armour save will mean the death of her.

Hope it helps.

[Amboadine]

But that's only my very personal opinion....

You are definitely not alone in that opinion. I totally agree.