Two towers, 2400 points

[Daeron]

My interpretation of the two towers list:

220pts - High Sorceress, Level 4 -> to be refined

193pts - Master, Peg, Full armor, CoT, Lance
300pts - Death Hag, COB, BSB

383pts - 28 WEs, FC, Banner of Armor Piercing
110pts - 5 DRs, Shields, Mus, RXBs
110pts - 5 DRs, Shields, Mus, RXBs

354pts - 27 EXEs, FC

210pts - 3 RBTs

175pts - Bloodwrack Shrine
125pts - 5 Warlocks
125pts - 5 Warlocks

I have 95 points left to customize the high Sorceress or keeping her cheap and taking a 4th Bolt Thrower. I suppose it would depend a bit on the combos I'd like to make:
- Lore of Blood AKA the Lore of Life. I like the support this Lore would give, but I'm unsure if it will be effective against either High Elves or Dwarves with their magic defence. If I'd take this, I'd dare rely on the protection it would give and keep the Sorceress cheap, taking that 4th RBT.
- Lore of Burning Heavens. Considering the flyers and shooters, it's certainly a Lore I'd welcome against these opponents. Anything that helps me get safely into combat would help this list and the Comet against Dwarves is hilarious. "Run you stunties! Run!". I would give her the Ring of Hotek and some other protection if I can.
- Lore of Death seems interesting to tackle the different mobile units they might throw at us: eagles, phoenixes, gyros.. Once we get closer to the enemy I'd risk targetting a character. Obviously Purple Sun will be welcome against the stunties. I'd consider putting her on a Dark steed to join some Warlocks with some MR or another ward.
- Lore of Shadow still looks good to me. I don't think there's a spell in there that I can't use. It lacks in damage, but this is fixed by the Warlocks. I could still choose to keep her cheap, or load her out with MR and a ward.
- Lore of Dark Magic, with the tome of Furion for Word of Pain. The rest of the kit to be decided, but I'm thinking a 4+ ward or the ring of hotek.


Any thoughts?
If I don't find any one combination I prefer, I could always just randomly roll at the start of the game lol.

[T.D.]

Looks neat and efficient.

As to lores...

...I'd go with the dice

[Thraundil]

Your list looks so well tuned! I've really found inspiration in your way of putting together an infantry based list. How about a unit of shades instead of one of the bolt throwers, just to give you a scouting support unit?

As for lore choice. With a list like this, I'd probably go with life or light, actually. You really rely on your infantry to do the grind for you, which means your biggest weakness is shooting / taking casualties before combat. Life can boost T, regrow lost models, and give regen to the executioners, moderately useful vs both shooters and magic. Light can effectively prevent shooting altogether. Considering that elves drop like flies to shooting, these might be solid choices, as once you close in on melee you should be able to win it with superior statlines. Not to mention, preventing losses in melee increases the likelihood of breaking your opponent

[Daeron]

Some of the Light spells felt mediocre or high cost for the benefit. The -1 to hit is great. The rest doesn't impress me but I have no experience with the Lore. Is it bright (hur hur) enough to give it a chance to shine (hur hur) and lighten (hur hur hur!) my day?

Life does seem promising, but aren't some RIPs? And thus not so effective against Dwarf or High Elf. On the other hand, the restoration of wounds does seem very useful

[Dalamar]

Out of life only throne of vines and shield of thorns are RiP but overall I find the lore underwhelming and easy to predict hence easy to counter. If you end up for example with regrowth, flesh to stone, throne of vines and dwellers (potentially the best setup) then I know to let throne through, then let either flesh to stone (if the unit is not in combat or regrowth (if its not that important) through and focus on dispelling dwellers. I'd go with dark since you only have one wizard with a choice and take Time to ensure Word of Pain as it is Awesome.

[Daeron]

Ahh, yes. Thanks for that feedback. I still think Life is interesting because I hope it may reduce the need for protection on the Sorceress. While the spells individually may not be as impressive, I still have 2 units of Warlocks to help out and enough points for a 4th bolt thrower. It needn't be as impressive. And the throne would permit a more dice-mad strategy which is important against them dispell-rune-crazy Dwarves. It's not even Dwellers I'd be so focused on, but the regeneration and restoration of lost wounds which, I hope, is the bane of the shooting I may face.

I did inspire the Tome + Dark combo based on your reports Dalamar. I do think it has merrit. My only issue with it is that the spells all cost a lot. Against a strong magic defense, I have often used and liked to use many small spells which I find easier with Shadow than Dark. On the other hand, a third Doombolt might be good and it would certainly be stylish.

[Dalamar]

Spells cost a lot? I find dark ridiculously easy to cast (only spell really worth boosting is word of pain). With the innate dark elf +5 to cast you can even gamble casting boosted WoP on 2 dice (about 50% chance of success) and most other spells are cast on 2 dice as well.

[Daeron]

Hmmm you make me think about it... Let me have another look at that Dalamar and get back on this when I did

[Dalamar]

Sure you can go crazy with doombolt and black horror but I wouldn't boost doombolt except when I have dice to spare (and only 6-dice it) and I see no point in boosting black horror as large template only helps against big units, and those are usually dealt with easily enough not to need boosted black horror (and aiming from a side you can get a 5 deep unit completely with the small template anyway)

[Daeron]

Hm.. Yes. I think on a level 4 with the +5 to cast it does become a fairly easy to cast lore. I'll give that one a shot!

[Carsenik]

Sorry to be off topic but what is two towers? I have seen it said but don't know what it is?

[Daeron]

It refers to having two "towers", being a Cauldron of blood or Bloodwrack Shrine model, in your list. It has quickly become a "style" with the new book. While the towers only refer to the cauldron and shrine, it usually implies having one solid combat unit per "Tower".

[Dalamar]

I even made a three towers list at 2500 points

[Amboadine]

Which was the third tower, BWS?

[Dalamar]

Dual witch elf horde with cauldrons and bws exec horde. Leaves enough ooints for a level 4 and some warlock chaff.

[Haagrum]

Some of the Light spells felt mediocre or high cost for the benefit. The -1 to hit is great. The rest doesn't impress me but I have no experience with the Lore. Is it bright (hur hur) enough to give it a chance to shine (hur hur) and lighten (hur hur hur!) my day?

Dear God, it's an apuncalypse! (thankfully, parenthood has made me immune to lame jokes. )

Pha's Protection is the obviously-awesome spell, but Net of Amyntok can be good against most opponents (especially if they have a caster in the unit). The boosted signature spell is excellent (albeit expensive) against targets like Daemon Princes, Chimeras and Hell Pit Abominations. Speed of Light is underrated IMO, yet it all but guarantees being hit on 5s, hitting on 3s and getting your ASF rerolls unless you're carrying a great weapon. Light of Battle means no risk of Frenzy-baiting. Even Timewarp is overlooked because we already have ASF - however, it also doubles your Movement and adds an Attack. Try to imagine facing a Witch Elf Cauldron unit with 5A per model, extra attacks on the crew and the Death Hag, AND an Executioners horde with bonus Attacks, each with a charge range of 10 + 2d6".

[Amboadine]

Dual witch elf horde with cauldrons and bws exec horde. Leaves enough ooints for a level 4 and some warlock chaff.

Interesting list. Have you had any luck with it, or just a paper theory exercise so far?

[Dalamar]

Just paper theory... I don't own that many witch elves... yet!

[Carsenik]

Ahh I see, my list is actually very similar to this idea with out really knowing. I will would like to try it. I am playing this weekend so I can so about trying this idea and see how it plays.

Also, I think Master is not calculated properly because my master is 186 points with peg, full armor, CoT, and lance. Every point counts

Also as for items for the Sorc, I still think the +4 talisman is good for extra protection. I normally find with 4 dice you will most likely get a double or a 2 for WoP so the Tome may be redundant. That is just my experience so far. Although the Ring of Hotek, could be beneficially if the SS in either of the towers. Hard call.

I do agree with Dalamar, cause the Dark Lore just has so many synergies that it is a no brainer to take. Especially if you get Shroud of Dispear against Skaven to break their LD bubble and pop a horror through there ranks.

[Vietnow]

As much as I welcomed having access to all 8 battle lores.... I always go back to Dark in some way. The ability to ensure WoP, with Tome, is too useful. A L2 with tome is the minimum for me. With a L4 you have a 90.5% chance to get WoP (I think, I head math'd it) IMO the worse roll is 1 3 5 6, the odds of that are extremely low, and still not game ending.

Of the games I've played with Life, underwhelming is the correct description. I've also tried metal shadow beasts and death on a L4. Personally I'd rank them;
Dark
Shadow
Death
Beasts (depending on list this can me a great lore)
Metal

I suppose this may change in a comped environment, if Dark was more difficult to take. Sorry I digress.

With a two towers list a L4 with dark has WAY too much useful synergy. You're very likely to get both WoP and Shroud. While shroud isn't very useful against vc/tk/doc, it has fantastic synergy with this list. The BWS's -1 bubble is down right dirty if they cannot use their general/bsb. The CoB forces the fear test at -3 with cry. That's -4 on the model's base Ld, with no bsb/general. The BWS also causes terror, another chance for fear tests. (make that failed fear tests)

Light is ok, but many of the buffs end up being redundant, or not needed. Shem's being flaming is nice, but to really hurt a big ugly monster you need to boost it, and its only D6 hits. Banishment only shines with other light wizards, and that's expensive for DE. Bironas is ok, but you're only gaining the double move and +1 attack from it. The move is easy to predict, and the attack can be gained from our CoB buff. Net can be effective, but it isn't guaranteed to do a thing. I find it very underwhelming with DE special rules. For an army like Empire, it performs well as they have few combat focused special rules. (I played my empire for the first time saturday, speed of light won the game)

Sorry, I tend to get wordy. Hope this helps

[Ampao]

Very interested in this list Daeron. Question, how would you deal with Regen Hordes? I.E. Gutstar with trollguts and OnG Troll Horde?

[Daeron]

Also, I think Master is not calculated properly because my master is 186 points with peg, full armor, CoT, and lance. Every point counts .

That would be his rxb that I neglected to mention. There is little more annoying that a hero with two meagre shots that nearly always hit. The odds are small, but he could even do a wound to a warmachine and save the need for a salvo of an rbt.

Ampao, I deal with such hordes the hard way, I'm afraid. Or rather... I will have to, as I have not used this list nor faced such an opponent with it.