Mango's March to War - Army Blog

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Amboadine
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Amboadine »

MangoPunch wrote:If I drop the sword of might from my Dread Knight, I can have 5 shades with Great Weapon (or AHW). Alternatively I can keep SOM and drop the LD banners from COK, or a Darkshard and One of the COK Banners.

5 S5 attacks doesn't seem particularly reliable. What types of targets do you take on with GW shades versus AHW shades?


This is where I typically have one unit of each. :) Ahw are also a very useful option. As for targets, that extra strength can make the difference against certain chaff units with greater toughness values or heavier armoured chaff and war machines.
Really depends on your meta, but with two units you can cover most bases.
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by MangoPunch »

Thanks again Amboadine! Here is my most recent 2,400 list. I really wish I could find 15 points for the Standard of Discipline to make that first COK unit more autonomous - advice on where or how to scrounge them up is appreciated.

Supreme Sorceress [290]
+ General
+ Talisman of Preservation + Dispel Scroll
+ Level 4 Wizard + Lore of Light

Master [213]
+ Battle Standard Bearer
+ Cloak of Twilight
+ Dark Pegasus
+ Heavy Armour + Lance + Sea Dragon Cloak + Shield

5 Dark Riders [110]
+ Musician
+ Repeater Crossbow + Shield
5 Dark Riders [110]
+ Musician
+ Repeater Crossbow + Shield
12 Witch Elves [160]
+ Hag
+ Musician
+ Standard Bearer
+ Banner of Eternal Flame
12 Witch Elves [150]
+ Hag
+ Musician
+ Standard Bearer
14 Darkshards [192]
+ Musician
+ Shield

5 Cold One Knights [190]
+ Dread Knight
+ Sword of Might
+ Standard Bearer
5 Cold One Knights [170]
+ Dread Knight / Standard Bearer
10 Har Ganeth Executioners [140]
+ Draich-master
+ Musician
10 Har Ganeth Executioners [140]
+ Draich-master
+ Musician
War Hydra [180]
+ Fiery Breath
5 Shades 90
+ Great Weapons (or AHW)
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

2,400 points
-JGB

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WS: 5 / S: 2 / T: 2 / D: 5 / I: 5
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Amboadine »

Unless you are willing to skim the Darkshards to 12, I am really not sure where to get those extra points from.
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi MangoPunch,

I wanted to reply to your topic long time ago but unfortunately I was too busy to post properly. However, some of the hassle I had recently is over so hopefully it is not too late to add to your topic!

Let me start with the game against HE and we will see how much further I can get in one go! Btw, as a rule I try to reply to a battle report as I read it without checking the comments made by other forum members so I apologize if I write something already discussed.

Game vs High Elves

1. Armies

I don't intend to comment on armies in terms of what I think is good/bad choices. In fact, I don't think there are bad units, just generals who can't use them to their full potential :) Because of that I prefer to look at strengths and weaknesses of both forces. Each player brought these units for a reason after all.

High Elves army has some tough regiments indeed. Phoenix Guard is quite big and with 4++ alone they can take a lot of punishment. One Frostheart is a powerful monster and having two of them is obviously even harder. Combined charge of PG block and one of the birds can cause a lot of trouble, especially against low T and low armor foes. And that is what DE army is.

Two units of archers are good support as they can be efficient against light troops and even help in combat as their ASF can be quite handy too. They might not prevail in one on one fights but at the same time they can still inflict casualties and/or keep enemy busy.

There are 3 wizards but no BSB which personally I think is a risky approach. It is not to prevent units from fleeing because your opponent probably assumes his big PG regiment is going to win combats due to high resilience but it adds a lot of flexibility.

I wonder what was your opponent plan in terms of magic lore selection. I understand that he wanted to make his PG even tougher nut to crack with flesh to stone and regrowth. Dwellers is also a good spell, provided the enemy likes to keep his characters in a single unit.

The army is compact and with smaller number of units that can be both an advantage and disadvantage. It does not give away points easily, as archers and reavers are the only fragile regiments. Wizards can be spread or put into PG block. However, with few units it is more difficult for it to get into desired combat as units can be diverted or delayed. Of course flying monsters can compensate for that to an extend but it is about allowing PG to get there rather than anything else.

Your army has totally different approach. It may be looked at as a classical match between more orthodox approach of big units against MSU army. You have a fair mix of different tools. 5 combat units provide quite a nice hitting power. All are very good at killing other T3 units. Amount of attacks are amazing and against HE in particular hatred will be very useful. Even PG has to be careful against WE as they might have trouble in saving all these attacks. WE are also great against Phoenixes due to poison.

You have good shooting that can be used to destroy fragile reavers and archers to allow you to dominate the movement phase even more efficiently. Add to that magic phase (warlocks) and with focused fire you can quickly eliminate all but PG. Technically Phoenixes are also a target (especially with withering) but I wonder about target selection here. You see, flying monsters can be dangerous but archers are very powerful against small, unprotected units and can quickly cripple them at range and be a constant threat. While Phoenix can charge only what it can see thus having limited options in comparison. It is still hard to make the priority but a decision should be made in order to stick to the plan.

2. Deployment

With better range of long bows I think it was good idea for HE to deploy a little further. I am sure your opponent assumed he would have first turn and wanted to shoot/cast magic turn 1 but the longer you have to march towards him the better for HE. I would also hide ER behind the archers to keep them for later as the longer they are alive the more valuable they become for disruption of enemy moves.

On the other hand you had smaller chance to start the game so you could have deployed accordingly. For example, you could simply position your regiments at 30.1" away from the archers and use DR vanguard to move out of harms way. They can get back to position quickly. Or if vanguarding to the flank put them out of sight it is also good option.

Another option is to form them in a conga line but presenting the flank, at 24" edge of deployment. In that formation they are long and can provide hard cover to more than one unit. I would have preferred to move them away though and start with the army further as to deny good shooting in turn 1 for HE. You can pick up the pace quickly anyway, keep witches covered by knights and dark riders and warlocks racing at the flanks so that it is easier to outflank the enemy.

3. The game

T1 - as expected, HE used their archery to eliminate fast cavalry. It is a good choice as otherwise DR can be very annoying. The situation with COK shows that there might be good idea to consider giving them gleaming pennant instead of champion so that they can be prepared for such unlucky rolls and allow you to use them on the flanks outside of BSB influence.

Well done on removing his reavers. I wonder what was his plan with keeping them in first line?

T2 - That was indeed risky on your part, first to put your general and level 4 so far away from the army (and BSB) as well as in the harms way of the archers. It was good decision to keep her with warlocks (even in such a small unit) but it would have been equally good if she stayed with knights for a while or simply hid behind BSB. Just make sure she could not be reached by magic missiles and you are safe.

The main thing, however, is that you lost powerful unit that can help you to dominate magic phase as warlocks spells are devastating and draw dispel dice well.

On the other hand I think PG should have stay with the army and further archers should have moved a little forward to finish your remaining Dark Riders. In that way your opponents keeps his battle line steady while you still have lots of terrain to cover and you already lost your 3 fast units that can provide some cover or threaten the flanks.

Now I am a little confused. I thought warlocks were the bodyguards to the sorceress and 3 dark riders were left alive to block PG? Is that correct?

Other than that a very good move with many units surrounding exposed regiment and preparing for multiple charge.

T3 - Quite interesting situation I must say. However, I wonder what else could have been done. For example, did he try to charge with his second phoenix? If not he could have blocked COK from left flank from moving anywhere.

Another good option was to charge PG against DR but phoenix against witches. Yes, risky with all the poison but he had t stomp to add to combat. Also PG would have overrun towards the witches on the left while phoenix would have blocked WE and COk at the same time. That would have given him an opportunity to break through.

I would have cast Shield of Thorns on PG because he knew this unit is going to hit WE and that would have helped him to kill some before the combat.

It was very lucky for him to break Hydra but also shows that it might have been a good idea to keep that breath attack for more convenient target. If used in close combat it would have helped you to swing the balance into your favor and maybe even win it! While killing PG is important they are simply better protected.

A very good execution of a multiple charge indeed! That is what MSU is all about!

I think it was a mistake to dispel the RIP spells. Shield was on Archers who were not in combat. Throne was on Archmage not engaged at the moment. I'd rather cast many small spells in the situation where the number of dice is even. In particular D&D was good for the combat!

I am sure that you would add now that that breath of hydra was very helpful as it allowed breaking steadfast and you are of course correct. :)

From that moment your opponent was put on back foot and he was desperate to do some damage. I think it was good idea to attack WE instead. They are easier to wound with magic missiles and as COK are not ItP they can be panicked. Not likely but there is a chance. Same with his other spells. WE are not as strong and there are more of them so Dwellers is better used against such troops.

All in all you used MSU well and exploited his mistakes. He should have kept the formation as breaking it allows MSU army to outflank even powerful units such as PG and by the sheer amount of attacks overwhelm them.

Well done!

Ok, I think I will try to comment on the game against daemons some time later as I have already written quite a lengthy post! Hopefully I will be able to come back soon!

Cheers!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi MangoPunch,

I am going to continue with comments, now onto game 2!

Game 2

1. The Armies

I always admire themed armies. They are not weaker than so called "optimized" ones at all. They simply have their distinctive strengths and weaknesses and as always it is up to a player to utilize the advantages and minimize the disadvantages.

Again you are facing an army that is fewer in unit numbers and has less support. Khorne daemons are still dangerous even if they are not as hard hitting as before (I mean bloodletters). But with fast elements in the form of BT, BC and Hounds then can be in combat quickly, have good second wave in the form of infantry and cannon and they are still very good in the fight. Again, the key to success is to divide and conquer. Main challenge would be to stop BT or at least delay it. That can be achieved by challenges as well as denying it the overrun/pursuit paths into new units.

I have also noticed that you decided to chose Heavens Magic this time. I think it is great for DE to be able to pick more lores too (even if from the point of background it may seem questionable sometimes :)) and I am simply curious why did you pick Heavens this time. Please, note, I am not saying it is good or bad. Not having used that myself I don't have the experience with it but I was on the receiving end and I know it can be devastating!

2. Deployment

Scenarios are always very interesting addition and I am happy to see you played one. I think they add nicely to the game and prevent some net listing as often you need to factor in some additional objectives.

In the Meeting Engagement I find being second better. You see there the army is, you know there is a huge chance of being second so you can deploy accordingly. What is more, reserves can actually be good for you, provided you get fast units in there and not your level 4!

3. The Game

T1 - It can be surprising sometimes to get that first turn but I think you did well. There was no need for you to move forward too much but you used the opportunity to surround the flanks earlier. I also like the fact you kept the Knights in reserves!

Your opponent already shows that he is more reacting. His army seems to be spreading too much, in particular with BL entering the field far to the flank. It seemed to me that he withdrew the cannon and moved his crushers only a little. Is that correct?

T2 - Nice charges! It is always great to attack first, especially when the enemy is weakened or when you have the chance to attack from the flank. What I would do differently, though, is to position BSB closer to DR (unless they were in range already) so that the would hold if something unlucky happened to COK.

It was good combat phase. I am still wondering which way he should make way with his BSB. I assume he was in the "middle" of the regiment so he could choose. He could not have reformed, however, as he was already engaged from both flanks and in that case Ld test was not required.

It was still good for you despite exposing the flank because you have more units to add later while weakening the powerful enemy was important.

I am not sure if it was possible but the picture suggests there was a chance that BT could have attacked COK rear (the unit in combat). Was that the case? if yes, why didn't he choose to do so? I believe that would have helped him a lot. On the other hand (remember I write as I read :)) it seems that was not necessary. In that case, did he consider attacking other DR, behind your lines? That would have kept him from harms way as he could have not been charged?

T3 - I think the direction of overrun would be from the center of the WE unit (more ranks) to the center of BT base, so that both units would move towards the Skullcannon. Indeed, resolving the combats in the correct order is important and in this case there was no need to do the one against BT as second. But hey, you got him and that what matters! :)

I am not sure if it is possible to charge the hero out of the unit and then to charge with the unit itself. I believe it is not correct but I will need to dig out the rulebook to be sure. In any case that is the mistake I made myself too and one has to be very careful in positioning diverters. That is why I don't like conga lines. They are cheeky a little although I understand you wanted to minimize the amount of attacks and have a chance to stay alive with some models and flee rather than be wiped out completely.

T4 - You kept the pressure on and I like how magic helped you a lot with so many hexes and buffs at the right time! I also presume the Cloak was essential in killing Karanak the Hound?

I was a little surprised, however, that WE lost combat. With re-rolls and poison you should have inflicted a few wounds, no? What did go wrong?

In any case at this stage it was really mopping up. Great victory for you! Congratulations! You used your strengths very well, surrounded isolated units and kept the pressure on putting your enemy on the back foot all the time. He had to react rather than act and that is always bad news.

I think it was a good call to charge Skullcrushers early. You picked the fight and held them in place. Otherwise you could have faced double charge from them and BT. I think overrun with WE was good thing to happen as it prevented them from reforming. Sure, they won the combat but that was not granted with limited attacks to both sides instead of full attacks against any of your units. You have more regiments and close combat was better to weaken the enemy so other units could pick it up later on. You got his BSB on the charge which is great too. Even if you achieved only that it would have been a very good exchange.

Cheers!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Just one more comment on the new list. I am not sure abut champions for COK. I prefer musicians, simply because they allow better mobility (swift reforms). In my most recent tournament I didn't take them and that was a problem. For example, I pursued the enemy, caught it but could only turn around in the following turn and was too far away to join the combat again. Or could not swift reform and move sideways to avoid the enemy charge and had to flee instead.

If you dropped champions and get musicians you would also get points for Standard of Discipline instead of Sword of Might. I am not saying it is a bad idea to have one. Magic weapons are great. And more attacks is always nice to have. From my experience it is, however, more convenient to have musicians. Also, in order to utilize champions to their full potential you might need 6 knights so that when he challenges there are 5 left to remain steadfast against powerful single character.

Cheers!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by MangoPunch »

@Swordmaster: Thank you for the well thought out and very helpful response. I read through them already, and will take more time later to think about and address each point you made. In terms of Musicians on the COKs, the reason I didn't put them is because I usually run the units 3x2, so can wheel 180 degrees in about 9", so only lose 2" of movement at most by not having a musician. Your point on the less effectiveness of the champions is very valid, and pushes the scales more in favor of magic standards or another 40 pts elsewhere.
-JGB

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WS: 5 / S: 2 / T: 2 / D: 5 / I: 5
Equipment: Staff, Throwing Knives
Inventory: Mysterious Map
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by BruceATL »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: For example, I pursued the enemy, caught it but could only turn around in the following turn and was too far away to join the combat again. Or could not swift reform and move sideways to avoid the enemy charge and had to flee instead.


As a side comment, how did you flee with CoK's? Or were you using some other kind of cav?

CoK's can't flee as a charge reaction due to the being ItP from stupidity.
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

HI BruceATL,

I was referring to my games with HE as I don't play other armies. It is a very good point that COK cannot flee. But I wanted to emphasize the need of musicians for greater maneuverability. In the situation I was facing COK knights would have been in even bigger trouble then, without the ability to flee.

Having said that I also want to highlight that it is merely my preference and I don't claim it is best solution. I am sure for other players other options will work very good. It is the matter of considering them and picking these that suit particular player the best.

Cheers!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by BruceATL »

Ah, gotcha SoH! Agreed on the musicians.

I'm not an MSU guy although I do try to bring a lot of rank and file on the board, but it seems to me Cold One Knights are a suspect choice due to the fact they can't flee. What I would replace them with I guess would be Dark riders with a basic hero in there and keep the points as low as possible. Then you keep the flee option and maintain some punch.
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi BruceATL,

DR unit with a hero can be used as an assault unit. The advantage is it is more mobile and you have a unit from core. It will be more evasive and can be more flexible due to equipment. However, it does not have the same staying power and grinding abilities of COK. I presume then that such unit would be great for support charge from the flank rather than a line breakers as COK can be, even in a small numbers.

COK on the other hand have a few advantages. ItP means they don't care about Fear/Terror (also cause Fear themselves) so that you don't have that silly situations where you fluff your attacks due to failed psychology test. They don't care about panic either, often a problem for MSU armies. They are S6 on the charge but with 2A S4 from cold ones they are actually good at grinding down infantry and some better armored foes too.

As always it comes down to the preferences of particular player but I believe there is a huge potential in that unit, despite its disadvantage in the form of stupidity.

Cheers!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by T.D. »

Against Cold One Knights in MSU:

- they can't flee
- they are stupid
- low number of wounds per points investment

In favour of Cold One Knights in MSU:

- they can't flee (and therefore won't run away when you don't want them to! ...unless broken in CC)
- they are immune to psychology
- they cause Fear
- they have a 2+ AS and 6+ parry
- they have WS5, I6 and ASF
- they have M7 and swiftstride
- they can take magic weapons and magic standards
- they charge with one S6 and 2 S4 attacks, and grind with 3 S4 attacks per model
- they are badasses riding dinosaurs!
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Gidean »

T.D. wrote:
- they are badasses riding dinosaurs!



I think your last point T.D. pretty much sums it up. :D
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by MangoPunch »

Blood in the Woods

6/22/2014 - 2k Meeting engagement versus the Wood Elves
I will be updating this over the next few days. I'll hold off on the result until the end, but will include my analysis throughout. First up, the lists:

The Lists
It was my typical 2k army, but with my level 4 on Light (more on that later):

Supreme Sorceress [290]
+ Talisman of Preservation / Dispel Scroll
+ Level 4 Wizard / Lore of Light

Master [213]
+ Battle Standard Bearer
+ Cloak of Twilight
+ Dark Pegasus
+ Heavy Armour / Lance / Sea Dragon Cloak / Shield

5 Dark Riders [110]
+ Musician
+ Repeater Crossbow / Shield

5 Dark Riders [110]
+ Musician
+ Repeater Crossbow / Shield

12 Witch Elves [160]
+ Hag / Musician / Standard Bearer
+ Banner of Eternal Flame

12 Witch Elves [150]
+ Hag / Musician / Standard Bearer

10 Darkshards [140]
+ Musician
+ Shield

5 Cold One Knights [200]
+ Dread Knight
+ Sword of Might
+ Musician / Standard Bearer

5 Cold One Knights [180]
+ Dread Knight / Musician / Standard Bearer

War Hydra [180]
+ Fiery Breath

Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125


Woodelves List:
(will expand on this later as I have a copy of it, but here is the outline from memory):

Lvl 4 of High Magic on Dark Steed with Acorn
Master BSB on Dark Steed with magic arrow that does 3D6 S4 shots once a game and he had magic resistance

9x Way Watchers
5x Way Watchers

3x10 Glade Gaurd (1x Hagbane (poison) and 2x Trueflight (no to hit modifier))

2x Eagle

3x Warhawk riders

2x5 Wild Riders

6x Sisters of the Thorne (Character Bunker)

Pre-Game Thoughts

Lore of Light: After being underwhelemed by Heavens, I decided to give Light a try. My first criteria is that I wanted a consistent magic missle, as I find my force is light on shooting, and Doom Bolt alone is unreliable (not to mention I am not good at keeping my Warlocks alive), beyond that I wanted a lore that is on the easier side of casting values, and Light looked pretty interesting / synergistic with my list. My top choices depending on match ups would be Shem's (the signature), Briona's Timewarp (which could help to get a unit into position on make my COKs absurdley deadly (12 S6 and 15 S4 ASF attacks on the charge!), Bannishment (as a back up magic missle), and Net of Amyntok to help control the board; even the most situational spell in the lore which allows to auto-pass LD tests is a nice synergy to increase Cold One reliability. I am trying not to tailor my list and think Light is a pretty balanced lore that helps with my weaknesses (especially in the 2.4k version with executioners).

Wood Elves: I think Wood Elves, especially evasive Wood Elves are / are going to be one of the hardest match ups for my list. While being MSU, with a heavy reliance on infantry my list isn't particularly manueverable against fliers and fast cav. At T3 and lots of no or low armour troops, I am very vulnerable to massed BS shooting. And my army is very combat oriented with limited ranged answers (one of the reasons I switched to lore of light) meaning that I am not content at stitting back, and not good at clearing more than a couple of Chaff units. I think I coud do very well against treemen, or WE combat blocks, btut then again who wouldn't?

His List / Specific Match Up: Whelp, his list was what a feared - a super evasive run and shoot frustrating as #@$@ set up. Beyond that most of his points were in his one hard to catch unit of Sisters of the Thorne with his characters. I had a couple of concerns: 1) his evasiveness would make it hard for my blocks to reach his points, 2) most of my force is very vulnerable to mass shooting, expecially my Witch Elves, 3) he had lots of re-directors and chaff, and 3) it would be hard for me to do damage to his main unit from a distance given its 4++ versus shooting 3++ versus magic and High magic attribute for 'protection coutners'. Before the game, I wasn't particularly worried of any of his units in combat (this was a mistake as I thought his Wild Riders were Glade Riders - a mistake I will not make again) but thought it was the getting to combat that would be the hardest. True flight arrows made trying to hide my witch elves and other soft targets useless, and hagbane tips were a threat to my Hydra.

Broadly speaking I had two potential strategies against his list: 1) Go big or go home: knowing that all of his points were centred in one unit, I could try to corner it and take it, 2) Clean Up the Rest: alternatively I could try and mop up the rest of his force, a good amount that were on foot and could be hunted down - I had a lot of units so could put pressure accross the board fairly consistently. I think the safer strategy would have been strategy #2, I of course decided for strategy #1. As such, my goal was to sweep my faster units accross from one flank, and make the board smaller, hopefully narrowing the battlefield and cornering his characters/sisters.

The battlefield

We generated the battlefield via random terrain in the BRB. We rolled 9, which is good for Wood Elves (especially with True Flight Arrows), and it ended up being a pretty eclectic and fun mix. The far back left corner hut-like structure is a Sigmarite Shrine (forces of dark re-roll wards), the woods in the far corner was a mysterious forest, the other 3 forests were generated via AB and Acorn and are Poison Thickets, the stone-henge like ruin is an Altar to Khaine (Frenzy!), the burned out building is just a regular two story building, the hill is normal, the Girraffe is a Spynx!! (a character within 12" can take an I test and get a benefit), the wall in front of thie Girraffe is a Holly Bolwark (the one that hurts force of dark initiative), and both rivers are mysterious.

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-JGB

Group 42 - Harkyl Anroc - Shade
WS: 5 / S: 2 / T: 2 / D: 5 / I: 5
Equipment: Staff, Throwing Knives
Inventory: Mysterious Map
Skills: Awareness, Basic Stealth, Defensive Fighting
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Amboadine »

Love the giraffe sphinx :).

Your list looks strong, so should be a good match up. Light is a nice change, possibly Life would have been a good choice against Woodies, but if you want it for the magic missiles then definitely a solid choice of lore.

His list gave me the same feeling I expect our opponents give us when we go MSU evasive. Frustrating and hard to take points from. However having a bunker in there gives you the chance to rip the heart from the army by destroying it. I would have properly also gone after it.

Looking forward to the updates.
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Re: Mango's March to War - Army Blog

Post by Gidean »

Man, you guys love your rivers. I could never get my buddies to play with that much river.
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