2400pts ETC - Draft 0 - brainstorming and list-tuning

[Malda]

Hi

in 3 weeks, we have tournament played by ETC2015 Draft 0 rules... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S6RvwlWX1SkSRWdM7BTBGObgfXca-a5G21coq6L_T28/edit?pli=1

I would like to record some testing process and tuning the list for this tournament... hopefully in more depth, than I did here :http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75853

so far, I have like 30 different, but somehow similar list... all of them revolve around units listed high on my cost effective-list (still subject to serious changes) http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75024&start=50

Role players:
Kharybdys
Harpies
Dark riders no RXB

Solid units:
Witch elves
Master - on steed
Dark riders RXB
Shades GW
Shades AHW
Shades
Dreadlord - on pegasus

Power units:
Bolt thrower
Master - on Pegasus
BSB - on Pegasus
Dreadlord - steed
Warlocks
Cauldron of blood Witches

Necessary units:
L4 Sorceress

the other restriction all lists revolve around is this: More than 80 shots per turn - 2 choices, which is actually quite limiting...

I consider 4Rbt to be mandatory, and want to maximise 80 shots to be the most effective, so the shooting core of my lists looks like this...

10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

or

10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Shades GW 162
9 Shades 144 (or with AHW, or 8 with GW and 2x5 with AHW)
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

it depends, If Iam using the 2nd Darkrider unit as a combat unit (without RxB)... I also like the 2 DR units with standards to give 2 fortitude and being able to hold the centre... in short, I always field 2 units of larger DR with banner...

There is also Lv4 sorceress in all of the lists... sometimes on DS (hotek + scroll), sometimes on pegasus (scroll, cloak + MR1) , which I want to try out if its good... I dislike when sorceress on DS limits movement of my Darkrider unit, so they can never enter the combat...

the rest of the army consist of different combinations of units in the list above... Ill post those better tuned lists versions soon...

[Malda]

so, the first list idea is a compilation of stuff I want to test... but it still looks solid to me...

It has some solid fortitude units, mobile threats, solid shooting, and if the deathmagic is so comped, then it has to be powerfull, right?

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Death) on Dark pegasus Dispell Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, Obsidian Trinket 360
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Armour of destiny, potion of foolhardiness, dragonbane gem 301

HEROES
Death Hag on Cauldron of blood 275
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211

CORE
26 Witch elves st, mus ,gleaming pennant 311
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220

SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
5 Harpies 75
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

there is also "nondeath" version of this list, which has still 52points to spend... I would like to include warlocks (still 1 comp point remaining), but i dont know where to get 75pts...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Heavens) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ring of Hotek 315

HEROES
Death Hag on Cauldron of blood 275
Master on dark Pegasus SH,SDC,Lance, Armour of destiny 184
Master on dark Pegasus Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 188
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
26 Witch elves st, mus ,gleaming pennant 311
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220

SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

[Malda]

Then I consider this "large warlock unit" list... Kharybdyss here roleplays pegmaster, who has to be cut bc of comp restrictions...

both lists seem quite evasive...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Heavens) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ring of Hotek 315
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
20 Witch elves standart, musican, Banner of eternal flame 250
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
14 Doomfire Warlocks 350
1 Kharibdyss 160

2399


but it could be probably substituted with "larde DR unit list" and the pegmaster can be used...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Heavens) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ring of Hotek 315
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,SH,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 188
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
17 Witch elves standart, musican, Banner of eternal flame 217
14 Dark Riders shields, st, mus 258
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
5 Shades AHW 90
5 Shades AHW 90
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

2395

[T.D.]

These are a lot of really nice optimised lists.

My only comments:

- I prefer 3 RBT + 1 Harpies over 4 RBT

- I also like 2x5 DR for double flees rather than 10 unless they are specific character babysitters.

- Hydra has comparative situational usability to a Kabbie (though perhaps not for your purposes)

...but bear in mind you are a much more experienced player than me and play at a much higher level!

-> Let us know how the playtesting goes

[Malda]

These are a lot of really nice optimised lists.

well see, It also depends, how wil the metagame evolve... as It seems to me, It could be more infantry based, bc of the scenarios, thats why I want to field witches... but I can be wrong...

- I prefer 3 RBT + 1 Harpies over 4 RBT

I managed to squeeze 4+harpies in the 1st list... never played with them, my expectations are quite high though ...I always fielded 2+units in old times

- I also like 2x5 DR for double flees rather than 10 unless they are specific character babysitters.

the ETC comp is quite against this, bc you can have only 2 units of DR... and I would like to try how effective is this larger unit with banner... I hope it is

- Hydra has comparative situational usability to a Kabbie (though perhaps not for your purposes)

Scyloc wrote that kabbie is much better than Hydra ...and the list I use her in quite needs some hig S attacks... I also dont know, if hydras breath counts in the 80shots... but I would like to try hdyra too, she looks like she could nicely upgrade shooting phase ...

...but bear in mind you are a much more experienced player than me and play at a much higher level!

not really, i have just few games under my belt, Iam more theoryhammering...

-> Let us know how the playtesting goes

hopefully will tomorrow...

[T.D.]

Cool. That all makes sense.

4 RBT + 1 Harpies seems like chaff overkill, but will be answered through playtesting.

Hydra is a cheap horde muncher, whereas the K-beast is anti-armour, monster and combo-charger. Hydra can be difficult for certain foes to kill, K-Beast dies pretty easily.

Experienced players like Scyloc and Omnichron tend to favour the K-Beast so tipping the scales that way seems sound. It also complements the Witches better.

[Malda]

Well, I played against wood elves today, and It was for the first time for me, so I didnt know what to really expect...

He did have
Lv4 Heavens Lv4 Shadow, BSB
3x7wildriders
2x10 fast cavalery with trueflight
2x fast cavalery with truflight
3 warhawk riders
2 eagles
2x5waywatchers

we played the meeting engagement. It was my choice of scenario, It seemed as the best choice, I also considered "capture the centre". He was stronger for blood and glory and for the dawn attack too... his choice was dawn attack... which is the scenario I would like to choose aganst most opponents....

I was choosing from 4 lists I prepared the night before, and couldn decide which one to play... I decided to go with the one, I thought that will be the worst against WE (I knew he will play them, but didnt know the build...)

The list I choose was very similar to my lists I played so far...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Heavens) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll 265
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
HEROES
Death Hag on Cauldron of blood 275
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
26 Witch elves st, mus ,gleaming pennant 311
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 200
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220
SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
9 Doomfire Warlocks 225

and It didnt work well... he won the rollof and deployed first and also started to play... I made some mistakes and he just generally overplayed me... the witches were too slow, GW on shades not optimal... I really disliked wildriders, bc I cannot charge them with my DRunits, they are too strong... first he killed my shades with both waywatchers, who deployed 12 from them... I should deploy them in my deployment zone... then he killed 3 of my balistas, one I didnt manage to guard and it died to warhawk riders, I didnt manage to shoot down, the other two he luckilly shot with ambushing cavaleries... one panicked my DR unit with sorceress (my positioning mistake) who rallied in front of wildriders and they erased them... and that was the game, I was without shooting and he just finished me off (we didnt play that)

the other builds would be better I believe, namely this one:

but Iam not sure, if I can go without any prolonged combat fighter... and there is no lord for Ld10... but those lords are sooo expensive and pegasus masters are so similar on power level... and as you can see, I decided, the most effective sorceress will be the vanilla one... 265pts is a steal...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Heavens) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll 265
HEROES
Death Hag on Cauldron of blood 275
Master on dark Pegasus Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 188
Master on dark Pegasus SH,SDC,Lance, Armour of destiny 184
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
25 Witch elves st, mus ,gleaming pennant 300
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 200
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220

SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

I quite like, where tihis list is going... 3 pegmasters form a threat by themselves... shooting is maximised... there is invested as few points as possible into magic... it only lacks prolonged combat with high S and Ld10... but witches should take care of any prolonged combats... It could play good against evasive lists and still be able to fight resilent ones...

[čiernyčaj]

Hey,

I'm sorry for posting an off-topic question, but could you, please, tell me why and exactly how do you use lvl 4 Heaven sorc?

Thanks.

[Gammal]

Hey man cool lists!
Now there has been a lot of lists surging through the forums for nearly two years, and one thing I see as a recurring theme is the "all eggs in one basket" type of play.
To me, putting 586pts on one unit, consisting of core troops with little to no save just seems like to much of a gamble to me, yes its super awesome if you get them in to combat without taking hits, you will run over just about anything.
VS things like chaos or lizardmen this would be an optimal choice indeed! But as it stands right now, you are aiming for a tournament, and that means preparing for many different types of lists, and one clear weakness of this is obviously shooty lists.
Looking at your list, you have one combat block, and if you were to lose that, you have little to no hope of winning the game.
Yes I know its popular, you might even call it standard, but I think its a very inefficient way to play.
Keep the hag with the cauldron if you like, but how about dropping a few witch elves, maybe one repeater and try and get some Blackguards/execs or/and Sisters in there? Perhaps even another unit of Witches.

I have a very simple reason for this, and it's something i've come to learn is the most overlooked thing in warhammer gaming, and thats

Target Saturation/ Threat Management. Its not something you can read about in stats, its not on any FAQ or tactics forums, yet its very valuable once you "get it"

Looking at the table once you start the game, whoever you are playing, you look at the army on the opposite side and you access the threats he has on the table.
Now look at your lists, where is the threat? Its easy to spot, its 600pts of nasty witches standing in the middle of your deployment. This is terrible! Its super easy to spot!

Now look at the army you faced, the WE player, now we are talking! The threat is really hard to spot! Yes the Wild Riders are scary, but there are three units (you probably yjought "hey I can handle that" as the game started) , and this (whether you believe it or not) makes the threat feel less threatening of that makes any sense.
And even if you do make the assessment that these units needs dealing with, he has the option of splitting them up, making it harder to get them all with an easy fix, on top of that he has two smaller units of WayWatchers right in your face very early, and a unit of hawks coming at you from the start.
The endgame of this is, that the threat of the smaller aggressive units is big enough that you cant ignore them but not high enough so you just have to focus on one point.
If the WW were 10 strong, there you have a massive threat (when I say threat im talking psychologi, but you get that by now), the threat itself is not higher than 2x5, but 1x10 just feels more nasty!

I think you have a good idea with the list, even if its super standard in my eyes, but your threat levels needs balancing IMO!
You need to spread it more even over the board ...

Good luck, sorry for the rant

[Malda]

Hey,

I'm sorry for posting an off-topic question, but could you, please, tell me why and exactly how do you use lvl 4 Heaven sorc?

Thanks.

Hi, not offtopic at all

Motivations for using Heavens magic varies... I had very good experience with this magic lore on one tournament, where I played it... its mostly bc of spells 4,5 and 6... they are quite high strenght, which is good to have in army with a lot of low S attacks... spells 5 and 6 kinda make the opponent to spread his army more than he needs, which is good for us, bc we can pick the isolated units easier... and the commet can be very deciding in certains matchups, where your oponent bunkers... and if hes forced not to bukner bc of commet, then it made its job... spell 0 is good and spells 1,2,3 are not useless...
It is also pretty safe for the sorceress to use Heavens, thanks to long ranges, few needs for LOS and cheap casting costs... overally easy to play lore, where you can stay away from your opponent..

playing Deathmagic is hard because of the ETC restrictions system

I consider a lot playing shadow magic mostly bc of withering spell, which complemenst low S shootnig perfectly... Soulblight from warlocks (only +2 to cast) can be used for this too, but its hard to have warlocks under ETC system and its not bad to have both spells... sadly the chances to cast mindrazor on 4 dice are only 56%, otherwise it would be awesome choice of magic lore...

Metal is also usable...

Light is not that bad too actually..

Iam open to all suggestions about magic lores, It is difficult part to solve... also the way to play the sorceress is something to solve... I dont like, when she binds whole unit of DR, I would like to use them more agressively... the other way is to put her on pegasus, but then she´s in much more danger, uses the cloak, so masters cant and most importantly costs 100pts more, than vanilla sorc in DR... so for now, using 200pts of DR, who at least shoot and carry fortitude is OK for me, untill I find better place for her... and she can sometimes operate by herself, against certain oponents...

[Malda]

Hey, thanks for response and lots of things to think about...

Hey man cool lists!
Now there has been a lot of lists surging through the forums for nearly two years, and one thing I see as a recurring theme is the "all eggs in one basket" type of play.
To me, putting 586pts on one unit, consisting of core troops with little to no save just seems like to much of a gamble to me, yes its super awesome if you get them in to combat without taking hits, you will run over just about anything.
VS things like chaos or lizardmen this would be an optimal choice indeed! But as it stands right now, you are aiming for a tournament, and that means preparing for many different types of lists, and one clear weakness of this is obviously shooty lists.

I would love to play some MSU armylist, as I used to do back in 7th edition... actually, the rest of the army is trying to be that kind of list... but as I see it now, full MSU is not possible with DE book and ETC restritions without using low quality units... but that impression can change of course

I see witches to be also good against empire infantry, skaven, VC, OaG, HE for example... shooting is not such problem for them, cauldron gives them 5+ward and MR1, making them one of the most resilent DE units available... and oponent will shoot all the other units first, before he starts to shoot witches... the problem is mobile lists, that can evade them... so the rest of the list should be designed to "deliver witches"

Looking at your list, you have one combat block, and if you were to lose that, you have little to no hope of winning the game.
Yes I know its popular, you might even call it standard, but I think its a very inefficient way to play.

I also see unit of 9 warlocks with dreadlord, who are even more gamewinning unit, than the witch elf unit... and 2 units of darkrides, who can win combats too... or 3 pegasuses in the other list, who combined can do serious winning...

Keep the hag with the cauldron if you like, but how about dropping a few witch elves,

Thats actually not that bad idea, to play them only 5 wide and make the unit cheaper with ranks... They should still be pretty dangerous... Ill definitely explore that idea...

maybe one repeater and try and get some Blackguards/execs or/and Sisters in there?

no, these units dont bring to the list anything the witches cant do and are way more expensive... and not core... RbT and say 10 witches is like unit of 12-15 BG/sisters/Execs... and they do almost nothing... I would look first for hydra, CoK, CoC or something like that...

Perhaps even another unit of Witches.

I have a very simple reason for this, and it's something i've come to learn is the most overlooked thing in warhammer gaming, and thats

Target Saturation/ Threat Management. Its not something you can read about in stats, its not on any FAQ or tactics forums, yet its very valuable once you "get it"

Looking at the table once you start the game, whoever you are playing, you look at the army on the opposite side and you access the threats he has on the table.
Now look at your lists, where is the threat? Its easy to spot, its 600pts of nasty witches standing in the middle of your deployment. This is terrible! Its super easy to spot!

Now look at the army you faced, the WE player, now we are talking! The threat is really hard to spot! Yes the Wild Riders are scary, but there are three units (you probably yjought "hey I can handle that" as the game started) , and this (whether you believe it or not) makes the threat feel less threatening of that makes any sense.
And even if you do make the assessment that these units needs dealing with, he has the option of splitting them up, making it harder to get them all with an easy fix, on top of that he has two smaller units of WayWatchers right in your face very early, and a unit of hawks coming at you from the start.
The endgame of this is, that the threat of the smaller aggressive units is big enough that you cant ignore them but not high enough so you just have to focus on one point.
If the WW were 10 strong, there you have a massive threat (when I say threat im talking psychologi, but you get that by now), the threat itself is not higher than 2x5, but 1x10 just feels more nasty!

Yes, but the wildriders are exeptional MSU unit, being able to kill a lot in small numbers and being supermobile... we have no unit that compares to them...

I think you have a good idea with the list, even if its super standard in my eyes, but your threat levels needs balancing IMO!
You need to spread it more even over the board ...

Good luck, sorry for the rant

The witchelf unit is definitely a pointsink, 600pts is huge, and I was always against using this type of units... It will also depend a lot on the metagame, how it will evolve, if the witches will be good or not... but I think, that its worth it to try to make them work... Its hard to use 600pts under ETC rules efectively, when the good units are so limted... but getting your point here...

[Omnichron]

I like the new ETC draft... it allows us to use some of the powerful choices we like, but not all of them.

For core I think that 2 units of DR is enough and the rest can easily be filled with MSU WE units. 10-14 of them with musician is manouverable enough to get around where you want, they are frenzied so you don't care if a lot of them (or all) get shot down, and they can take care of some units quite easily without being too much point to give away.

For specials, I agree that 4 RBTs are mandatory. Also, there is no comp for the shades from what I can see, so I would have gotten 3 units of those with 7-10 shades...

As for the rest... one big warlock unit with characters should be good enough... and of course the Kharibdyss is quite good. I would have considered two of those myself.

The lore to use is the hard part really... Death is kinda out of the window as it is too many points. Beast can be very good in some situations. Dark Magic isn't the worst lore to use, although I think some of the spells can be useless in the battles where other spells in that lore is quite good. Kinda widespread lore in a way.

I still like shadow for a shooty list, but without the mindrazor, it isn't the best option imo.

[Malda]

I like the new ETC draft... it allows us to use some of the powerful choices we like, but not all of them.

For core I think that 2 units of DR is enough and the rest can easily be filled with MSU WE units. 10-14 of them with musician is manouverable enough to get around where you want, they are frenzied so you don't care if a lot of them (or all) get shot down, and they can take care of some units quite easily without being too much point to give away.

Yes, It looks like there is not many other ways to build core... all the other choices seem inferior...

For specials, I agree that 4 RBTs are mandatory. Also, there is no comp for the shades from what I can see, so I would have gotten 3 units of those with 7-10 shades...

the problem with shades is the 80 shot comp... 24 is RBTs, so we could field 10+10+8 shades, and those DR would have to be without RxB... but units of 14DR + character could be usable combat units... This direction looks like worth exploring...

As for the rest... one big warlock unit with characters should be good enough...

thats actually the problem of ETC restrictions... RBT - 1 choice Big Warlocks - 2 Choices... so, we are left with 2 combat characters... 2 dreadlords or dreadlord + BSB... thats not big punch... maybee one Dreadlord in each of those 14 DR unit?

and of course the Kharibdyss is quite good. I would have considered two of those myself.

use of Kharibdyss could fix the lower number of combat characters...

The lore to use is the hard part really... Death is kinda out of the window as it is too many points. Beast can be very good in some situations. Dark Magic isn't the worst lore to use, although I think some of the spells can be useless in the battles where other spells in that lore is quite good. Kinda widespread lore in a way.

I still like shadow for a shooty list, but without the mindrazor, it isn't the best option imo.

Withering is quite tempting for shooty list, and pit is nice too.. I played with shadow magic yesterday and was quite happy with it... with mindrazor, it would be nobrainer ...all the lores are good, none of them exceptional... with larger warlocks, who can cast soulblight at reasonable chance, there is not such need for withering...

[Malda]

For core I think that 2 units of DR is enough and the rest can easily be filled with MSU WE units. 10-14 of them with musician is manouverable enough to get around where you want, they are frenzied so you don't care if a lot of them (or all) get shot down, and they can take care of some units quite easily without being too much point to give away.
.

If you mean just small DRunits and small WE units, dont forget there is 2 scenarios, where you need fortitude... Blood and glory and capture the centre... you need banners and someone to carry them ...thats the problem with MSU aproach under this ETC comp...

[Malda]

List with 2 Kharybdyss could look like this:

It seems, there is no space for more shades, only by droping RxB from darkriders and cuting dreadlord for BSB+shades

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll 265
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Armour of destiny 291
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
CORE
15 Witch elves standart, musican 185
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
8 Shades AHW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
9 Doomfire Warlocks 225
1 Kharibdyss 160
1 Kharibdyss 160

2399


...or those Kharybdysses could be substituted by dragon

[Malda]

Or like this with BSB instead of Dreadlord... and added harpies for easier warmashine hunting...

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll 265
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
15 Witch elves standart, musican, gleaming pennant 190
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
8 Shades AHW 144
5 Harpies 75
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
9 Doomfire Warlocks 225
1 Kharibdyss 160
1 Kharibdyss 160

[Omnichron]

If you mean just small DRunits and small WE units, dont forget there is 2 scenarios, where you need fortitude... Blood and glory and capture the centre... you need banners and someone to carry them ...thats the problem with MSU aproach under this ETC comp...

I forgot about those... yes, then you need something more than MSU.

[Malda]

So, I played two battles against Bretonia...

1st one with this list:

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll 265
HEROES
Death Hag on Cauldron of blood 275
Master on dark Pegasus Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 188
Master on dark Pegasus SH,SDC,Lance, Armour of destiny 184
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield, SDC, HA, LN 211
CORE
25 Witch elves st, mus ,gleaming pennant 300
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 200
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, standard, mus 220

SPECIAL
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

dawn attack scenario, ended 10:10... I dont like this list, I dont feel that the game is in my hands with it.... while the CoB witches were awesome at 2999pts, they are not that great at 2400pts... they need much more to make them work, bc opponents have more space to evade them... I still think, they are powerfull choice, but the army needs to be bent more around them... so, for now, Iam leaving the CoB route... I also missed Dreadlord with ability for prolonged combat... I enjoyed the shadow magic though, even without ability to switch places with characters...

so, yesterday, I played with different list and I enjoyed it a lot! capture the centre scenario 20:0

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ironcurse icon 270
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone, Potion of foolhardiness 274
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
15 Witch elves standart, musican, banner of eternal flame 195
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
9 Shades AHW 162
5 Harpies 75
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
14 Doomfire Warlocks 350
1 Kharibdyss 160


all the units felt like cooperating, all of them had their purpouse... it still has all eggs in one basket, but the dredlord does not have to be in warlocks, he can work with darkriders... but still, he wants to be in warlocks

2x Lv4 caster is nice, shooting is maximised, sorceress can shadow-swap place with DL, harpies help where needed, witches can do some work... Kharybdyss threatens (she charged in turn 6 unit of knights and failed to kill anyone)

there are two possible choices i consider:

-1Shade -1 Kharybdyss +1 Hydra with breathweapon

or to cut witches and shades and ude darkshards as core... then its left 340pts for some special/rare/characters choices like kharybdyss + Hydra or unit of CoK or cut harpies for another 75... darkshards are way inferior to withes or shades, but it makes some room somewhere else in the list...

so the base could look like this:

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ironcurse icon 270
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone, Potion of foolhardiness 274
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
10 Darkshards FCG, flamebanner 170
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, FCG 210
SPECIAL
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
14 Doomfire Warlocks 350

with 415pts left

[Malda]

or like this for example:

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ironcurse icon 270
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
14 Darkshards musican, standard, flamebanner 198
11 Dark Riders shields, st, mus 207
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
5 Shades AHW 90
10 Cold one Knights st, mus, gleaming pennant 325
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
14 Doomfire Warlocks 350


2400

[Malda]

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress (Shadow) on Dark steed Dispell Scroll, Ironcurse icon 270
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone, Potion of foolhardiness 274
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
15 Witch elves standart, musican, banner of eternal flame 195
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
9 Shades AHW 162
5 Harpies 75
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
14 Doomfire Warlocks 350
1 Kharibdyss 160

I played another game with this list and still enjoyed it... althrought I lost 0:20 to High elves - Asuryan od icebird, icebird, BSB world dragon mounted, Lightcouncil, 4x RbT, 2x large silverhelms, 5 eleyrians.... icebirds are really annoying and net of amyntok on my mage unit didnt help too... but still, I played the game bad and there was some potential in my list...

[Malda]

One thing I noticed in my last 3 games (WE, Bret, HE) was, that there were no good targets for witchelves... I dont really want to play darkshards, neither one of the inferior choices wielding swords or spears... and corsairs seem like even less usefull witchelves... so the only solution left is to use only DR as core:

19 Dark Riders shields, st, mus 343
12 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 260

huge combat unit led by dreadlord + support unit for sorceress

15 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 320
13 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 280

(+4rbt = 80 shots)

exact 600 points...

but both choices seem quite heavy...

or we can sacrifice one comp point an have 3 units of solid size:

10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
9 Dark Riders shields, st, mus 173
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220


and the 9-man combat unit can be made larger and lead by character... for example:

Lightcouncil:

LORDS
L4 Supreme Sorceress on Dark Steed Sceptre of stability, Obsidian lodestone 300
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Armour of destiny 291
Dreadlord on Dark steed HA,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 269
HEROES
L1 Sorceress on Dark steed 90
L1 Sorceress on Dark steed Dispell scroll 115
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 213
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
14 Dark Riders shields, st, mus 258
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
SPECIAL
8 Shades AHW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

[Malda]

Or, we could go this way... I played this little beast against my Bretonian friend and smashed him again... it was not fully competetive testing game, but this army showed some power...

LORDS
L4 Supreme (Light) Sorceress on Dark Steed Sceptre of stability, Ring of Hotek 305
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,Dragonhelm,Giant blade, Dawn stone 266
Dreadlord on Cold one SDC,GW, Armour of Destiny, Crown of Command 259
HEROES
L2 Sorceress (Light) on Dark steed Dispell scroll 150
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB SDC,LN, Talisman of Preservation, Ench. shield 205
CORE
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
600!!!
SPECIAL
10 Cold one Knights st, mus, swiftbanner 335
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

2400pts ...some of the comboes are not perfect, but points were needed (luckstone at dreadlord and charmed shield at BSB had to be sacrificed...)

there are also other posibilities, which mostly include cutting one RbT, which I dont want to do... but I would like to have dreadlords better suited for combating other characters...

Like this setup:
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,HA,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
Dreadlord on Cold one SDC,GW, HA, Black Amulet, Crown of Command 280

or this:
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,HA,Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation,OTS 307
Dreadlord on Cold one SDC,GW, HA, Black Amulet, Crown of Command 280


This would be ok, but its 2408pts... any ideas, where to get those 8?

LORDS
L4 Supreme Sorceress on Dark Steed Sceptre of stability, Ring of Hotek 305
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,HA,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
Dreadlord on Cold one SDC,GW, HA, Black Amulet, Crown of Command 280
HEROES
L2 Sorceress on Dark steed Dispell scroll 150
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
9 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 200
SPECIAL
9 Cold one Knights st, mus, swiftbanner 305
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280

[Malda]

so, I played 3 round tournament with this build

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress on Dark pegasus - Shadow Dispell Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, Obsidian Trinket 360
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,HA,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Armour of destiny, dragonbane gem 296
HEROES

Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
11 Darkshards shields, musican, standard 163
SPECIAL
9 Cold one Knights FCG, swiftbanner 315
3 Repeater Bolt thrower 210
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

1:19 Wood elves: 4x glade riders, 2x wildriders, sisters with 2xLv4 and BSB, 2x10waywatchers
10:10 skaven : bell unit + 2 abominations + 3 slaves,
10:10 slannesh beastmen: 3xlord-bull, 1x BSB bull, 7chariots, 2x5harpies, beasthedunit with L4+L1+L1 shadow casters
OD Test

I really enyoyed my army, event though I didnt do well... but I would do some changes... I would switch shadow (almost unusable in all 3 games) for something more destructive, probably for Heavens or even Dark, which seems pretty good for pegasus sorceress...
And the coldone unit was not doing too well... neither darkshards did... so I would do these changes

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress on Dark pegasus - Dark Dispell Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, Obsidian Trinket 360
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Sword of Antiheroes, Black amulet, Dragonbane helm 301
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,HA,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
21 Witch elves standart, musican, Banner of eternal flame 261
SPECIAL
8 Shades AHW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125


and maybee go even bigger in this version:

LORDS
L4 Supreme sorceress on Dark pegasus - Dark Dispell Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, Obsidian Trinket 360
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Sword of Antiheroes, Black amulet, Dragonbane helm 301
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,HA,Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation,OTS 307
HEROES
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB SH,SDC,Lance, Armour of destiny 209
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
18 Witch elves standart, musican, Banner of eternal flame 228
SPECIAL
8 Shades AHW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
RARE
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

What I like about all of these armies is that, they all have a lot of independent units...

[Malda]

Then I realized, I could go Even bigger (even more Herohammer), because everyone is doing so and I would like to come up with a build, that counters those builds...

LORDS
L4 Supreme Sorceress on Dark Steed - Light Sceptre of stability, Ring of Hotek 305
Dreadlord on Dark steed SH,SDC,HA,Giant blade, Dawn stone,OTS 277
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Sword of antiheroes, tal of pres, Dragonbane helm 286
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Armour of destiny, Dragonbane gem 296
HEROES
L1 Sorceress on Dark steed - Light Ironcurse icon 95
L1 Sorceress on Dark steed - Light Dispell scroll 115
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB Cloak of Twilight, SDC, SH, HA, LN 213
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
11 Darkshards shields, musican, standard 163
SPECIAL
3 Repeater Bolt thrower 210


LORDS
L4 Supreme Sorceress on Dark Steed - Heavens Sceptre of stability, Ring of Hotek 305
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,LN, Cloak of Twilight, Dawnstone, Ench shield 285
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Sword of Antiheroes, Black amulet, Dragonbane helm 301
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,HA,Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation,OTS 307
HEROES
L2 Sorceress on Dark steed - Metal Dispell scroll, Ironcurse icon 155
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB SH,SDC,Lance, Armour of destiny 209
CORE
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
11 Darkshards shields,FCG, Banner of eternal flame 183
SPECIAL
3 Repeater Bolt thrower 210


I tried to maximize the Pegasus builds, but Iam not sure how to build them correctly... Iam quite scared by metal magic... I will start new thread about multiple Dreadlord builds here:http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76152

[Malda]

Well, I have final version of my list for this weekend tournament... registration is sent... wish me luck

I returned back to using witches, bc I found darkshards useless... and even increased the amount of units, that can do something by themselves.. I also tried to maximise the effectivity of shooting and Iam trying out Dark magic, bc I want the most destructive choice available... Doombolt and word of pain are spells I really want in every game, the rest is kinda situational, but can work well in right circumstances... Iam kind of affraid of shorter range, Heavens would be safer choice, but I expect more agressive builds, tahn defensive ones and here can Dark work better... I also changed my allstar lord with giantblade, OSs and dawnstone for pegasuslord... this way I can have 2 independent threats, the Lord itself and unit of darkriders... both pegasus lords are suited for combating enemy characters, one should be specialist for deathstars, the other one for lone characters... The rest of the army is the most efficient evasion to be found in DE armybook under ETC restrictions...


L4 Supreme sorceress on Dark pegasus - Dark Dispell Scroll, Cloak of Twilight, Obsidian Trinket 360
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus SDC,SH,Sword of Antiheroes, Armour of destiny, OTS, Dragonbane gem 301
Dreadlord on Dark pegasus HA,SDC,SH,Ogre Blade, Black amulet 307
Master on dark Pegasus - BSB HA,SDC,Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed shield 211

10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
10 Dark Riders shields, RxB, musican, standard 220
18 Witch elves standart, musican, Banner of eternal flame 228
8 Shades GW 144
4 Repeater Bolt thrower 280
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125