Anyone care to elaborate on my 2400 swedish comp list? :)

[McFreddie]

Hi people

I'm new to this forum, but I've been redirected here with additional google searches, so I thought to myself that it's about time to register!

I'm building a list for a friendly 2400 swedish comp tourney, and I would like to hear your thoughts about the list.

Lord Choice:
Supreme Sorceress lvl. 4 w. Ring of Hotek - Lore of Beasts (score: -30) - (270pts)

Hero Choices:
Khainite Assassin w. AHW, Manbane, Potion of Foolhardiness and Glittering Scales (score: -1) - (142pts)

Master BSB w. full mundane armor, Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone (score: -18) - (135pts)

Tullaris Dreadbringer (score: -10) - (155pts)

Core:
31 Blackark Corsairs w. full cmd and AHW, Banner of Eternal Flame) (score: -16) - (381pts)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -6) - (110pts.)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -8) - (110pts.)

Special:
5 Cold One Knights w. full cmd (score: -6) (180pts)

29 Executioners of Har Ganeth w. full cmd, Banner of Swiftness (score: -34) - (393pts)

12 Shades w. gw (score: -13) - (216pts)

War Hydra w. fiery breath (score: - 12) - (180pts)

Rare:
5 Doomfire Warlocks (score: -24) - (125pts)

My thoughts about the list goes as follows:
Sorceress and BSB in corsairs, moving up next to thee executioner unit with Tullaris in it. (Ring of Hotek to protect both units from some magic).
The Beast lore should help me buff either Tullaris and or the Assassin in crucial CC rounds. (hopefully xD).
Assassin hidden with the 12 shades (I guess that the assassin can sometimes be hidden in the corsairs to ensure the sorceress' safety as well, yay many options! )

I've specifically chosen not to field Bolt Throwers and Darkshards, because I do not want to be forced to think about defending a weak backline every game.

I guess rest is pretty self explanatory, but please let me know if you are wondering why I've picked certain things.

My inner debate with myself is regarding the following units: Shades, Assassin and Hydra.
At first i really wanted 2 units of 10 shades, which is doable by not taking an assassin for example.
But at the same time, I could choose not to field a hydra and have 2 units of shades AND an assassin.

I am however pretty torn on this subject, and I would like to hear if you can convince me of one option over the other^^

I look forward to hearing back from you guys!

Best regards

McFreddie

[Sentarr]

Welcome to D-net Freddy!

First off, I would love to comment on your army list but it would help a lot if you tell us what comp score you are aiming for.

About the assassin tho, If you love the model and it's rules/use than you should keep him in your list. Maybe two units of ten shades would be more competitive but I would recommend you to stick to what you like to field more than focusing on what's the strongest option. Besides that, I love assassins and I really think the synergy with Beasts has potential. The only downer, from what I just read in our armybook, is that you have to reveal him at the start of your movement phase or at the start of a close combat phase. In order to buff him up with savage beasts you'd have to reveal him during the moment phase and that kinda prevents the ideal situation where you'd reveal him after the charge and buff him to be a very strong killer. The look on your opponents face would be hilarious haha... wishful thinking:D..

[McFreddie]

Hi Sentarr

Thank you very much^^

Ah, i knew i forgot to add something in the original post. The comp score should be within 8-12 pt.
I have never fielded an assassin before, and never as many shades either. Was only theory crafting a new list and I like the skirmishy feel. At least on paper^^

I am aware of the issue with revealing the assassin before the magic phase, but I don't consider that to be a dealbreaker tbh. Even though the scenario that you present would be hilarious!

[McFreddie]

I should propably mention that with the Assassin, the list is worth 11,9 points in swe. comp. and with two units of shades I'm looking at 9,7 pt. (If i've pressed correctly on my calculator that is )

Any inputs?

[Ajattaro]

I think you should take killing blow on your assassin, even it takes one comp point, or take better weapon. S4 does pretty much nothing. OTS + KB is nice combo for assassin. Potion not so much, if you start hidden.

Since you have lots of infantry with good strenght (gws), lore of beasts is not the best choice. I see Metal getting best synergies with the list. Light would be good too even if banishment would be S4.

Shades get harshly comped if you take more than 10. You save lot of comp points by reducing them by 2. You could add musician and standard. Otherwise, large gw units are badass. Be sure to hit enemy flanks only though.
You could also drop 2 executioners to save 6 comp points if checked correctly. Swedish strangely punishes certain unit sizes, and lists can save comp points with optimizing unit sizes.

Also, tidy up your list presentation a little. Battle scribe copy paste is bad to read. I would appreciate if you add you swedish comp points for units and total into the list too, because it makes analysis easier. Swedish comp lists are hard to change due to lots of different mechanisms.

Good luck with your games and welcome

[McFreddie]

Ty so much for the input Ajattaro!

Army list is hereby tidied up. Sorry for the inconvenience.

In regards to the Assassin: I can see what you mean by the Other Tricksters Shard, and I'll try and fit it in! - the potion was merely a case of 5 spare points in the end, and can easily be removed.
About the strenght 4 issue; my thought was to be able to buff him up with beast magic when I'm able too, and Manbane should make it easier to wound in general.. I'd assume at least
The reason why I haven't taken a magic weapon on him, is the fact that I'll loose out on an extra attack that way, which is hard to make up for unless I grab an expensive magic weapon.

Lore of magic: I really appreciate this input as I've just been super focused on Beast and the opportunity to buff characters in a bubble. Which in many cases would be doable with this list (a one trick pony in many cases though). I'm straying away from light, simply because I like the lore of magic to fit somewhat thematically with my army. I'm gonna heavily consider Metal though, my only concern here is that the armor buff would only really make sense on my executioners (where it would really kick ass!) and I don't feel like i need to debuff my enemys armor that much, seeing as I have so many high str. attacks to begin with. What are your thoughts on that?

I haven't been paying too much attention as to what options I have regarding lowering my comp score, simply because I'm fairly safe within the restriction limit as of now. I appreciate the tips very much though, becasue it's good to know if I at some point should make some changes that screwes over my score^^

How good would you say the Hydra is in my list? - would I be better off with 2 units of 10 shades AND an assassin, instead of 1 unit of shades, 1 assassin and a hydra? - Hard to answer since it's really matchup dependant, I know.. But it would be nice to hear some comments on it nevertheless

[marcopollo]

I prioritize the hydra before the assasin. With the ability to grow back wounds an T-stomp, he fills many roles. And against some people, they still think that it is broken like in the old days. So they misjudge the resources needed to manage it.

As for assasins, I think you can now hide as many in a unit as you like. There was a faq on it a while ago. Some very tempting shenanigans come to mind.

[Mikael.k]

The thing with swedish is that everything counts, meaning you´ll easily get "ripples on the water", hence Ajattaros advice is sound. Following his thinking, here´s mine.

- I´d drop the execs down to 27 for that extra -6, which will come in handy later.
- Use those points for another warlock. You are allowed 6 for -24, use it.
- Add another cold one knight if possible.
- Now, regarding the assassin. He´s nice and all, but with the points and comp that was over from the execs you would now have 142pts and -6 to play with. For those points you could get a small unit of witches, a level 1 with a support lore and a useful item, a Cold one chariot...something that the whole army may have use for

Only advice, take what you will and dump the rest. The list is solid either way Be sure to report back how you did with it!

[Ajattaro]

Yeah, assassins are not top choices now when there is so much armor and killing blowing characters is harder, but I though it was good flavor for the list and has its uses with infantry BSB and lvl4. I would keep him near characters.

As for magic, you should not rely on it as important link in strategy (unless six dicing killer spells). There is so many things to go wrong and then you are screwed times you need to pull off your spells. Magic is best used to augment your plans, by utterly crushing opponent in CC or shooting withered opponent off the board etc.

That being said Beasts works well in this list by adding extra combat power, but it is optimal lore for cavalry/monster/pegasus lists. Dont underestimate metal: would you not like 2+ as Hydra, Corsairs and DR? Dont underestimate anti-armor capability, S5/6 only reduces 1+ armour to 3+/4+ armor, which is still decent and enemy can end up rolling insanely well with armour saves, like I did last game. With high strenght and MP you have no problem with wounding, but with hitting with all models (enchanted blades). Plus final transmutation, 'nuff said.

I think that you should keep the hydra. It helps your infantry block by adding extra mobile threat and horde killing ability. I usually run one small and one large unit of shades. You dont need anotjer large one, since they cant take on everything even they are powerful. Also with scouting you get them where exactly you need them, and then one unit is enough. Large units are little too wieldy to hunt war machines too because of their large footprint.
And yes, with swedish you get significant bonus by optimizing your comp score. Better match up in tournament or extra vp.

[McFreddie]

Appreciate the input!

I've taken the optimizing of comp to heart, and I am trying to work around a list with 27 executioners, and 2 x 8-man squads of shades. Optimizing Warlocks and Cold One knights to 6 man units is a bit harder as I do not have the models for it unfortunately.

I really like the idea of an Assassin and Tullaris inside a bubble of character enhancing Beast magic, but it would require some strong/lucky magic phases to pull off effectively.
Regarding the lore of Metal; the scaly skin buff from glittering robes is useless on many of the units inside the bubble effect, seeing as the Corsairs already has this extra armor value, and the Hydra doesn't recieve any buff from it either, as it has a better scaly skin armor to begin with. However, your post did inspire me to see if I can fit in a Cold One Chariot, seeing as it would benefit greatly from this armor buff (A chariot does get the buff, right?)

I do really like the enchanted blades for the Executioner unit, and this spell is a strong advocate for going with the lore of Metal.

I have a different perspective on magic, as I see it as an important link in strategy and in list building in general. I mean, I'm spending 270pts. for a Sorceress, and I expect it to pay off somehow. This is why I'm so caught up in finding the best lore for this list, with synergies that could force the best possible outcome in games^^

I'm gonna try to put up a new list soon with the lore of Metal in mind. The former list is kinda hero dependant, especially with Beast magic, and I kinda feel like that the loss of a hero would be even more devastating for my army with beast magic than with metal. With Metal i feel like I won't have as many eggs in one basket, and it seems stronger in certain aspects. Even though the armor buff doesn't work on the wizard bunker^^

[McFreddie]

Lord Choice:
Supreme Sorceress lvl. 4 w. Ring of Hotek - Lore of Metal (score: -30) - (270pts)

Hero Choices:
Khainite Assassin w. AHW, (Manbane or Dark Venom*),OTS, Glittering Scales (score: -1 or -2*) - (152pts)

Master BSB w. full mundane armor, Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone (score: -18) - (135pts)

Tullaris Dreadbringer (score: -10) - (155pts)

Core:
32 Blackark Corsairs w. full cmd and AHW (score: -16) - (382pts)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -6) - (110pts.)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -8) - (110pts.)

Special:
5 Cold One Knights w. full cmd (score: -6) (180pts)

27 Executioners of Har Ganeth w. full cmd (score: -28) - (354pts)

8 Shades w. gw (score: -11) - (144pts)

8 Shades w. gw (score: -17) - (144pts)

Cold One Chariot (score: -6) - (115pts)

Rare:
5 Doomfire Warlocks (score: -24) - (125pts)

Swedish comp score: 11,9 (varies 1 pt. depending on the poison choice on the Assassin)
Total list pts: 2376.

I am leaning towards getting manbane for the Assassin, but the previous suggestion was Dark Venom. What would you guys pick, and why?
And how would you spend the last 24 pts. in the list? - Magic Banners, Light Armor on Shades, extra Corsairs, Magic Items?

[Ajattaro]

You made me think about this double scaly skin save problem. I have played it the way that it works double without arguments with anybody. I must say that I have forgotten why it has been played this way...

BRB p.66, "What special rules does it have" section, last sentence in the first paragraph states that special rules are cumulative unless otherwise noted. So model can have two active scaly skin rules making its skin even "scalier"

Scaly skin itself is tricky. If it gave just plain armour save then it would be just combined with othee armour as per basic rules on p.43.

Any way, scaly skin gives positive modifier to armour save, but why could not have several modifiers affecting, even ones with same/different value if the special rules are cumulative? That would argue for additional effect for corsairs and hydra with glittering robes.

Rules for ward save, regen and MR clearly state that you must use the highest one available, but nothing is stated for scaly skin affecting armour saves only once.

[Mikael.k]

I think it is because (this is from what I belive, I´m at work so no BRB in front of me) the spell says you get a 5+ scaly skin save. Nothing about increasing a save, but it is a side effect if you have other types of armour of course. So, two scaly skins would be a bit redundant

[Ajattaro]

But as for the list again, you really should take KB on assassin. Manbane makes you wound most combat charaters on 3+/4+ and S4 really does not get through armour. Even if you get one wound through its useless if your assassin becomes bloody paste. Of course glittering scales is good for assassin to have some chance of surviving to round two if opponent survives.
Manbane is great with magic weapon, like Obsidian blade. With lore of Metal and AHW you score lots of hits, so that is why KB has really good chances of happening. With KB you can earn his points back in one round, which is only chance assassin usually gets. KB + OTS has really good psychological factor for your opponent too. I also think that KB makes assassin more "assassiney" if you know what I mean
. Assassin with KB is great in unit with cauldron .

As for spare points, take gleaming pennant for CoK.If you have two stupid units it is really hard to keep them in BSB bubble, and the knight are ones outside it. Pennant can help with swift really help with other important Ld checks too.

Also having scroll or sceptre of stability (which is not comped) with your SS would make your magic defence even better. sceptre is good when you have to stop multiple small spells or try stop one spells with high casting roll, since you can stracth your dice more effectively. IC icon is good for expensive infantry too.

[Ajattaro]

I think it is because (this is from what I belive, I´m at work so no BRB in front of me) the spell says you get a 5+ scaly skin save. Nothing about increasing a save, but it is a side effect if you have other types of armour of course. So, two scaly skins would be a bit redundant

I checked this in the morning... Scaly skin actually gives positive modifier to armour save, even if it is written as "Scaly Skin X+", which was a little surprise for me too. But however, my arguments should still be applicable. Rules allow cumulation of duplicate special rules, and dont reject it on scaly skin. Corsair with LA, SDC and glittering robes effect would have 6+as and two +2 modifiers from two scaly skins, thus making his armour save 2+.

If there is more debate to it, I think this should be taken to Rules forum. I must say that this certain thing wasn't really clear to me, but I have played it this way with no arguments with my opponents. This is just what my logic tells me with the wording of the rules. I cant say is it RAI, but it should be RAW interpretation. To my mind it is not stupid, but a little odd way the rules work.

[McFreddie]

I see your point on the Scaly Skin matter, but on many other forums they seem very certain that it doesn't stack. Lustria-online has even ruled it out as non-stacking. We should maybe make another thread for clearing out how this spell is used, as you're also suggesting^^

On the matter og magic weapons and AHW: It says in BRB p. 501 that a magic weapon can't be used alongside an AHW for an additional attack.. The Assassin will lose an attack (that only cost 2 pt.) by buying a magic weapon, I don't see how that is a good tradeoff, seeing as the Assassin in most cases would be a "kill, and be killed" type character.

[McFreddie]

It seems I was right about the scaly skin issue. The following is from the BRB FAQ:

"Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to “[...]
the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However, unless
otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from
having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of the
first paragraph." (http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html)

[Ajattaro]

ah yes the FAQ. Giod thing that I didnt run into this in tournament.

And yes, models cant use ahw and magic weapon, but giving up ahw is not so bad if you really get harm somebody. Obsidian blade and manbane is good combo with assassin, trust me. So is KB + OTS (especially with CoB) too, where you get to use ahw

[McFreddie]

So I finally got to test my list against a friend of mine, and I believe that I promised an update? - The list I ended up with is as follows:

Lord Choice:
Supreme Sorceress lvl. 4 w. Ring of Hotek - Lore of Beast (score: -30) - (270pts)

Hero Choices:
Khainite Assassin w. AHW, Dark Venom, OTS, Glittering Scales (score: or -2) - (152pts)

Master BSB w. full mundane armor, Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone (score: -18) - (135pts)

Tullaris Dreadbringer (score: -10) - (155pts)

Core:
32 Blackark Corsairs w. full cmd and AHW (score: -16) - (382pts)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -6) - (110pts.)

5 Dark Riders w. Shield and Xbows, Musician (score: -8) - (110pts.)

Special:
5 Cold One Knights w. full cmd, Gleaming Pendant (score: -6) (185pts)

27 Executioners of Har Ganeth w. full cmd, Banner of Swiftness (score: -28) - (369pts)

8 Shades w. gw (score: -11) - (144pts)

8 Shades w. gw (score: -17) - (144pts)

Cold One Chariot (score: -6) - (115pts)

Rare:
5 Doomfire Warlocks (score: -24) - (125pts)

Swedish comp score: 11,9
Total list pts: 2396

I ended up trying the lore of Beast, and boy oh boy am I glad I did!
I got a sick "Savage beast of Horros" off in a crucial turn

I played against a Deamon list, and the most notable moment in the game was when he had his Bloodthirster charge my Corsair unit, and my champion challenged him. My champion died ofc, but I only lost that one dude from the unit, so that was nice, and I even ended up winning combat resolution 'cause of ranks and banner n' stuff. Next turn is when the magic happened, so to speak
I revealed my Assassin in the Corsair unit, and got a 20+ savage beast of horros spell off, hitting all the Chars in my list with it. I miscasted while doing it and lost some stuff, but this was worth it!

The Assassin challenged his Bloodthirster and absolutely gutted the greater deamon with 7, strength 7 attacks + he had to reroll his wardsaves!

The game ended after 3 hours with the conclusion of our 4th turn, with me having scored about 1900pt. and him having scored somewhere near 500pt

Needless to say, this game assured me that I should run lore of Beasts and the Assassin in my list!

[Ajattaro]

Wow, really nice! List looks complete now too. But does your BSB only have hand weapon? He could still get sword of might or something. Its not necessary though.

If you run into ethereals, better cast them to hell, since you dont have magical combat attacks.

Best of luck with your list!

[Mikael.k]

Pretty cool to see the assassin doing such an epic feat as killing a greater daemon of khorne! How did your other units work, thinking about shades and corsairs. About to give those units a chance to prove themselves

[McFreddie]

I really liked how the list played out in this one game, it's hard to tell how well it will fare against other lists, but I have a good feeling. Seems like it is well balanced between being competitive while still being good for friendly matches as it is not overpowered either.

If I do meet ethereals I will focus my warlocks magic phase on them that's for sure, or get Tullaris to take care of them^^

The Shades did relatively good, one unit saw more action that the other because of my deployment, but they managed to deal a wound to the Bloodthirster with ranged attacks before he charged, and later they flanked a unit of Bloodletters that were fighting my Executioner/Tullaris/BSB unit, dealing the final blow to the Khorne deamons. The other unit missed a lot of their ranged attacks, and spend most game just being present on one of my flanks.

The Corsairs acted as my wizard/assassin bunker, and the only action they saw was the champion dueling the Bloodthirster to buy my wizard/assassin combo enough time to get off the spell/duel combo that I wrote about earlier. I still like the Corsairs cause it's the only well armoured infantry, even though their armour never got tested this game^^

[Mikael.k]

Any plans on giving lore of metal a spin?

[McFreddie]

I tried it in a 1000pt. test game vs. Lizardmen just before the other game actually. But I didn't get the spells I was hoping for seeing as I only had a level 2 sorceress available, so it's not fair to write the lore of metal off because of that game.

Thing is though, my deployment will most likely be having all 4 characters in a 12" diameter, which is perfect for the character buffing in the beast lore. This, and the fact that beast fits nicely with the fluff theme that I'm working on, has me kinda set on going for beast from here on out.

I have no doubt that metal is a good choice though! - But seeing as my corsairs doesn't benefit from one of the key spells, and Tullaris already makes the Executioners land more hits (via the extra attacks), metal is not the optimal choice for my list