2250 MSU Shrine List - Getting them Damsels

[Lord Drakon]

I have posted an earlier threat about the start of this, in the meantime it evolved a little. I am attending the first tournament as Searinox Nagharha therefore the add of same title. As it is my first tournament and have little experience I hope to receive feedback on the overal weaknesses and strengths, ecpecially against which armies it should do well, and against which it should trouble.

I have faced Vampire Counts, Lizardmen, Skaven and Warriors of Chaos so far, and will face Orcs and Goblins + Empire before the tournament. That means that I will have no battle experience against others elves (DE, WE, HE), Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarfs, Beastman, Deamons of Chaos, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarfs.

The tournament is not compted 2250 points, with no special characters and no End Times rules. There are three battles, and in every battle you can earn 30 Battle Points, 15 from victory points in the battle, and 15 from secondary objectives. So secondary objective are just as important as the battle itself.

Scenario 1 (Battleline) each unit below 50% gives half the victory points
Gain +1 Battle Point for a Core unit that is above half strength at the end of the battle (this can be won up to 5 times).
Gain +1 Battle Point for a Special unit that is above half strength at the end of the battle (this can be won up to 3 times).
Gain +1 Battle Point for a Rare unit that is above half strength at the end of the battle (this can be won up to 2 times).
Gain +2 Battle Points if your Battle Standard Bearer is alive and is not fleeing at the end of the battle.
Gain +3 Battle Points if your General is alive and not fleeing at the end of the battle

Scenario 2 (Dawn Attack) underdog bonus = 100 instead of 50
Gain +1 Battle Point for each challenge issued that was won (this can be won up to 5 times)
Gain +1 Battle Point for each challenge won that you did not issue (this can be won up to 3 times)
Gain +1 Battle Point if you killed more Characters and Unit Champions than your opponent.
Gain +2 Battle Points if you control a Core unit which has a Unit Champion alive at the end of the battle and is inside your opponent’s deployment zone (this can be won up to 3 times).

Scenario 3 (Battleline) core unit within 6" of ebjective gives 300 victory points
Gain +3 Battle Points for having a Core unit that is above half strength at the end of the battle, in a table quarter (this can be won up to 4 times, once for each table quarter)
Gain +3 Battle Point if your Battle Standard Bearer is alive and is not fleeing at the end of the battle, and is within 6 inches of the objective marker in the centre of the table

Full rulepack : https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?res ... PX2ACo1R2s

This is the list I am intending to bring.

Host of Har Ganeth : 12 drops

Characters 559 (25%)

Supreme Sorceress 250
- General
- Level 4
- Life Magic
- Talisman of Endurance

Master 309
- BSB
- Manticore
- Halberd
- Heavy Armor
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Shield
- Cloak of Twilight

Core 570 (25%)

10 Darkshards 120
10 Darkshards 120
10 Darkshards 120
5 Dark riders, herald, RXB 105
5 Dark riders, herald, RXB 105

Special 630 (27%)

5 Shades 80
5 Cold One Knights, dread knight 160
1 War Hydra, fiery breath 180
3 Reaper Bolt Throwers 210

Rare 490 (23%)

5 Warlocks 125
10 Sister of Slaughter, full command, banner of eternal flames (bunker) 190
1 Bloodwrack Shrine 175

Total: 2249

So this is an defensive MSU list, aimed to perfom well in all phases.

Movement
3 vanguarding units
1 scouting unit
1 movement 6 unit
1 movement 8 unit
1 flying unit

Magic
6 levels of magic
- Doombolt (4 dice)
- Soulblight (3 dice)
- 4 spells from Life
- Flesh to Stone or Earthblood (2 dice)
- Throne of Vines (2 dice)
- Regrowth (3 dice)
- Dwellers Below (5 dice)
2 channels

Shooting
- 90 crossbow bolts
- 18 reaper bolts or 3 single bolt thrower bolts
- 4 magical killing blow medusa shots
- 1 teardrop flame template STR 4

Access to Flaming attacks
- Hydra
- Shrine of Slaughter

Combat
- BSB on Manticore (7 killing blow (with frenzy 9) strength 5 hits + D6 thunderstomp strength 5 hits).
- War Hydra (8 strength 5 hits + D6 thunderstomp strength 5 hits)
- Cold One Knights (16 strength 4 hits of which 5 are strength 6 on the charge)
- Warlocks (10 poisoned strength 4 hits)
- Shrine of Slaughter (8 strength 3 hits, 3 strength 4 hits + D6+1 strength 5 hits on the charge + 5 initiative tests or magical strength 4 killing blow hits with no armour saves allowed). Enemy has no rank combat bonus and parry saves.

Psychology
- 3 terror causing units
- 1 fear causing unit which is immune to psychology
- all combat block are immune to fear or terror tests

Tournament Scenario (We are the Champions)
- Handmaiden of Shards (3 strength 3 flaming attacks, 4+ ward save) WS6, I6, ASF
- Dread Knight (2 strength 6 attacks on the charge, 2+ armour save) WS5, I6, ASF
- Herald (1 strength 4 attack on the charge, 5+ armour save) WS4, I5, ASF
- Herald (1 strength 4 attack on the charge, 5+ armour save) WS4, I5, ASF

Target Saturation
- 3 large targets
- 3 missile infantry
- 3 artillery
- 3 fast cavalry

What are your thoughts ?

[jeffman]

I'm still debating whether to sign up for this tournament or not. I'm currently in the end phase of my education, so i don't know if i have the time to finish some painting/converting.

I was thinking about this list:

Lords 542pt
Dreadlord 277pt
- General
- OTS
- Giant blade
- Dawnstone
- dark steed

Supreme sorceress 265pt
- Dispel scroll
- dark steed
- light

hero's 497pt
Master 211
- pegasus
- BSB
- Full mundane lance
- ToP
- Charmed shield

Master 188
- pegasus
- Full mundane lance
- CoT

Master 98pt
- steed
- full mundane lance

Core 584pt
10x darkriders 220pt
- xbow shield
- herald, standard bearer

5x darkrider 100pt
- xbow shield

5x darkrider 100pt
- xbow shield

14x Witchelves 164 pt
- musician

special 450pt
9x CoK 310 pt
- Full command
- Flame banner

2x Bolt thrower 140 pt

rare 175pt
7x Warlocks 175pt

Total 2248

edit, I don't have the one master on steed but i do have the bits to make one. and I don't have the unit of 10 darkriders, I do however have 10 reavers, but i'm not sure how to convert them to darkriders. the reavers not made of several bits like the darkriders.

[jeffman]

Your list looks like a solid one. I am always scared to put the flaming banner in my main combat block because of Demon princes with 2++ against flaming banners. Also what do you do against lots of armor and 1+ monster cavalry?

[Falstaff]

Hi!

I must say I love the manticore. He's fluffy but still furnishes your army with a thunderstomping monster which is flying.
On the downside it is rather vulnerable. Therefore I'm not sure if the BSB on a manticore is the right choice. You'll want your bsb with your troups and I'm not sure if this takes away too much movability a flying monster actually offers.

Can you squeeze in a cheap BSB? E.g. Master, BSB, heavy armour, shield, SDC, rxb. Should stay at roundabout 100 points but makes you use your manticore much more freely! Also, if you lose your manticore it's not that big of a deal.
Manticore:
Have you considered the following equipment on your manticore master? Dawnstone, charmed shield, Sword of might. It lets you use S5 in combat while maintaining the 1+ AS! Also, you can take one cannon hit with the master. This build is ideal for grinding out S3 or S4 units ... like beasts of nurgle!!

If you want to use your cloak of twighlight I suggest more strength! Probably a lance as you can still reroll to hit.. however the opponent is much less likely to make his armour save against S6 and this allows you to deploy your D3 wounds! Also, you'll have the 1+ AS in close combat which is so so good. on the downside you'll fight with S4 from turn 2 of close combat onwards..


Magicwise:
You have quite some shooting and apart from your CoK little strength to cut through high armour. Maybe Lore of Shadow makes more sense for you? While the significant debuffs can slow your opponent or make him stay away from cc altogether. The -T spell will make your shardes very deadly. Also, the S debuff protects your manticore which feals uncomfortable fighting high strength. Furthermore, the signature spell lets you drop Initiative which is a nice synergy for your shrine!!
Strenghtwise Mindrazer lets you cut through armour like butter.

What's your plan with lore of life? Is it to regrow wounds on your monsters? From experience I can tell you that this effect is rather underwhelming as you're only likely to regrow 1 wound / turn. On the other hand a 4++ regen is really nice for your list!

[Lord Drakon]

Good point about armour. Against enemy heavily armoured knights the BSB Manticore would be the solution with the 7 killing blow stregth 5 attacks. RBT single shots for monstrous cavarly and pegauses + concentrated Darkshard fire. Cold One Knights, Hydra and Shrine of Slaughter can also inflict -2 armour save, while the latter win because of combat resolution.

Manticore is used as counter for enemy fast units or flying characters (except Deamon Princes or Dragon Lords) and reserve as because of his fly he can be send where needed and therefore stick to the gunline. You might be right about the lance and maintaining +1 AS, but with the Halberd I can also block enemy charges into soft backline with same combat abilities.

There is the possibility to put a cheap BS in the Shrine unit in second rank, but the only way to do that is to leave the shades out of the list (and therefore less options for enemy backfield without a peggy master). But ofcourse leaves that freedom for the Manticore to advance to enemy backfield. Good point !

I took Lore of Shadow in the last playtesting battles, and I really liked it. It makes the shooting extra effective, any MSU unit in combat powerful and have nice synergies with the I shooting or attack from Shrine. But, soulblight also provides the -1 T and -1S in one spell, and -1 T is most of the times already enough to tip the balance for my shooting and combat.

The centerpiece is the Shrine of Slaughter who I think is able to handle with everything possible out there in combat, but eventually will lose wounds and die at the end of the battle because of enemy concentration on it. With Life I have the amazing possibility to add 1 or 2 wounds back to the Shrine, while regrowing the Sisters. Besides that the 4+ regen save on it and access to Flesh to Stone adds needed protection against enemy missile fire or warmachines. As my SS is inside that unit, if that unit got beaten or destroyed, thats the general + 625 points, more than 1/4 of the army.

I found that the army offers enough possibilities with shooting, combat and through warlocks alone magic, but lacks bodies and protection against enemy shooting. With Life I guess that the best way to go to solve that issue.

[Ajattaro]

How about lance for your BSB? then you get most out of the CoT. If you want to protect the backline from soft troops, then S4/5 attacks sure are enough. With lance You mantiBSB is tough enough to kill all high preferred enemies on one go (Chariots, monster w/o regen, small infantry units, warmachines etc.)

I dont understand what is the point of champions in your 5-man cavalry units? You need at least six of them to stall characters when you challenge and then keep steadfast. All your units (especially Darkshards) would need musicians. Also with that much shooting I think that flame banner would be best on darkshards, but sisters will do fine.

[Lord Drakon]

How about lance for your BSB? then you get most out of the CoT. If you want to protect the backline from soft troops, then S4/5 attacks sure are enough. With lance You mantiBSB is tough enough to kill all high preferred enemies on one go (Chariots, monster w/o regen, small infantry units, warmachines etc.)

I dont understand what is the point of champions in your 5-man cavalry units? You need at least six of them to stall characters when you challenge and then keep steadfast. All your units (especially Darkshards) would need musicians. Also with that much shooting I think that flame banner would be best on darkshards, but sisters will do fine.

I agree, but points is my biggest enemy, there is really no space. I could leave the SS without any protection, as she is in the bunker and keep her alive with Life magic (5 or 4+ regen, 2 or 4+ tougness + healing wounds) and give the darkshards the much needed musician. Even for the lance I lack points (therefore swapped to halberd) but if 1 darkshard unit goed without muso I am able to pay for it. If you observe something that could go to make more points please suggest !

Heralds for Dark Riders are scenario based, or should I ignore that ? I read something about the stalling tactic with heralds on the High Elf forum, but I really really lack the points to get another dark rider.

[Searinox Nagharha]

I would use them to Combo Charge into a unit with the MantiBSB to accept challanges.
Thus way the Manti can "Rip&Tear!" through said unit

[Ajattaro]

I would use them to Combo Charge into a unit with the MantiBSB to accept challanges.
Thus way the Manti can "Rip&Tear!" through said unit

But still, maybe too many champions? Remember that enemy get bonuses by killing your champions too.

I would concentrate at first making you list as good as it can be, then abusing the special rules. Bad list cant win well. You might want to concentrate on characters and elite champions too - you want to win those challenges. Mayne tou can keep one cavalry champion to help out BSB.

[Searinox Nagharha]

He wont simply get those Fast Cav Champs tho. and in total the enemy will only get 1 BP for it.
Having 1 Champion in the enemy deployment tho already gives you 2.
For me its easy, I want my combat Lord to get into something and hurt it, so the champions make sure he can assassinate any chars hiding in units

[Lord Drakon]

I fielded the list with the feedback, replacing lance for halberd and adding two musicians at the Darkshards for the 5+ ward save of the Supreme Sorceress, with only Dragonbane Gem as protection and massacred the opponents Orcs and Goblin army (20 -0)

Characters 538 (25%)

Supreme Sorceress 225
- General
- Level 4
- Life Magic
- Dragonbane Gem

Master 313
- BSB
- Manticore
- Lance
- Heavy Armor
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Shield
- Cloak of Twilight


Core 590 (25%)

10 Darkshards, musician 130
10 Darkshards, musician 130
10 Darkshards 120
5 Dark riders, herald, RXB 105
5 Dark riders, herald, RXB 105


Special 630 (27%)

5 Shades 80
5 Cold One Knights, dread knight 160
1 War Hydra, fiery breath 180
3 Reaper Bolt Throwers 210


Rare 490 (23%)

5 Warlocks 125
10 Sister of Slaughter, full command, banner of eternal flames 190
1 Bloodwrack Shrine 175

Total: 2248

Unfornately the Manticore got killed by a Rock Lobba before it could so something, musicians where less crucial this battle, but worth it for last turn swift reform. Leaving the Supreme Sorceress without any protection is also possible with Life, as you negate miscasts and add 4+ regen save + 4+ tougness greatly improving surviving possibilities. Also Life, especially regrowth amazing with an MSU army, as your small units are easily healed back to full power.

Champions in Dark Riders can earn 4 battle points as they can be in enemy deployment zone better than any other core unit, and with regrowth it is possible to bring them back even after combined charge with Manticore to take the challenge. Yesterday one of the heralds became MVP op the game, so I will keep them ! The 30 points of the Supreme Sorceress 5+ ward save could buy the suggested changes instead

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Lord Drakon,

I spent quite a time writing comments about your list and of course I forgot that treacherous Druchii.net tend to log you out after short time and does not let you go back to copy-paste the text you have written

So I lost all I have written. I will try to find time to write it again and I hope it will still be worthy reading. In the meantime, keep up the good work with the games and battle reports!

Cheers!

[Lord Drakon]

I am looking forward to your comments

[jeffman]

I will be attending the tournement, hope to see you there.

Did you see they changed the point limit to 2400?

[Searinox Nagharha]

They did? Thats quite the big change this close to the date

[Lord Drakon]

Wow indeed, that gives a lot of extra space ! Yes deadline is also extended

[Searinox Nagharha]

Well frig me... I already send my 2250 list... hope i can fix this

[jeffman]

They didn't give you notice eventhough u alraidy send your list?

[Searinox Nagharha]

not yet but I'm expecting one soon... in the meantime... back to the drawing board!

[Lord Drakon]

This is my new list. List is build around the Shrine of Slaughter and possible Leadership Bomb.


Characters 538 (25%)

Supreme Sorceress 220 - Terror
- General
- Level 4
- Life Magic

Master 333 - Terror
- BSB
- Manticore
- Iron Hard Skin
- Lance
- Heavy Armor
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Shield
- Cloak of Twilight

Sorceress 140 - Terror
- Level 2
- Dark Magic
- Power of Darkness
- Tome of Furion

Master 117 - Fear
- Dark Steed
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Shrieking Blade
- Charmed Shield
- Repeater Crossbow
- Dragonbane gem

Core 600 (25%)

10 Darkshards, musician, shields 140
10 Darkshards, musician, shields 140
7 Dark riders, full command, shields, RXB 170 - Fear
6 Dark riders, full command, shields, RXB 150

Special 460 (27%)

5 Shades, ahw 90
5 Cold One Knights, dread knight 160 - Fear
3 Reaper Bolt Throwers 210


Rare 530 (23%)

1 Kharibdyss 160 - Terror
10 Sister of Slaughter, full command, banner of swiftness 195 - Terror
1 Bloodwrack Shrine 175 - Terror

Total: 2400

[Ajattaro]

Where do you conjure up terror on sorceresses and fear on DR? I dont know if this really effective list since you got lots of characters on foot. Also you dont have really threatening units.

[T.D.]

From the unit they are placed in i.e. Sorc with the Bloodwrack (Terror)

[Lord Drakon]

Sisters and Shrine are combined into one unit, both Supreme and normal Sorceress goes into second rank. Because of the Shrine the whole unit causes Terror. Same as master with shrieking blade, as opponent units needs to take fear test even when dark riders themselves do not cause fear but he will join them if not going solo.

Threats
- BSB, Lance, CoT, Manticore (heavy cavarly, chariots, characters)
- Dwellers, Shroud of Despair
- Shrine of Slaughter (anvils, hordes, elite infantry, monsters)
- Kharibdyss (solo units, heavy armour)
- Combined Dark Riders with master (average units)
- Combined Cold One Knights with master (heavy armour, normal troops)
- Solo master (chaff, warmachines, wizards, missile infantry)

I will playtest it tomorrow against Skaven and let you know !

[Amboadine]

I will playtest it tomorrow against Skaven and let you know !

Looking forward to hearing how this actually plays on the battlefield.

[Lord Drakon]

After comment with anglais about Shroud and LD test, I swapped one darkshards for two more units of dark riders. Core is now :

10 Darkshards, musician, shields 140
5 Dark riders, full command, shields, RXB 130
5 Dark riders, full command, shields, RXB 130
5 Dark riders, shields, RXB 100
5 Dark riders, shields, RXB 100

In that way I can capitalize in forcing frenzy checks, capturing routed units and direct the enemy movement phase towards the LD bomb when Shrine of Slaughter comes into play.