2400 ETC - My First DE Tournament

[Coop]

Hey everyone! I'm going to a 5 game tournament at the end of April and am planning to bring the Dark Elves over my Daemons of Chaos. I've never played with ETC comp before, but I think I put together a reasonably competent list.

2398/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - Pegasus, CoT, BSB, lance, heavy armor, SDC, shield

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician

SPECIAL
5 x Shades - Extra Hand Weapons, Musician
5 x Shades - Extra Hand Weapons, Musician
10 x CoK - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant, 5 point magic item on champion
16 x Executioners - Standard, Musician

RARE
9 x Warlocks
9 x Warlocks

So my 5 comp choices are: 2 for pegasus/dark steed mounted characters, 1 for mounted characters past the first, and 2 for 5(or part of 5) doomfire warlocks. For blood and glory I have 7 fortitude.

The models need to be painted, so I can only play with the models I have done. In addition to the things in this list, I have:
2 more witches
1 BWS/COB
14 more executioners
Some non-mounted characters

My main questions are:
1. Where do I put the banners? On the dark riders or the witches? Or neither?
2. Is it worth it to make the pegasus a BSB or is that too many eggs in one basket? I don't expect him to make it through every game alive
3. Do I meet ETC comp? I think I accounted for everything.
4. Any changes to magic banners or unit load-outs?
5. We happy with Lore of Shadow? I think it makes sense for the wither and mystifying miasma to make it hard to hit my units and also to let the witches hit on 4-5s instead of 6s on tough units. Plus PIT OF SHADES!

Thanks!

[Thraundil]

You have a problem with your comp score there. You include 2x9 warlocks, this is wishful comp interpretation.

The line says each 5 (or part thereof) doomfire warlock models - 1 choice.

In other words: 5 warlock models in the army cost 1 choice. 6-10 warlock models in the army cost 2 choices.
NOT: 5-9 warlocks in a unit cost 1 choice.

So 18 warlocks, thats 5 plus 5 plus 5 plus another-part-of-5. 4 choices on the warlocks alone. Its a pretty harsh comp on warlocks, but this should not be a surprise given the strength of the unit across the board.

So - back to the drawing board!

For the next army list draft, keep in mind your soft points, your hard points, and which units you want to collect your points. Knights and witch elves all depend on successful leadership checks in many situations. Your BSB is highly mobile, your knights are semi mobile and your witches are sort of immobile. How does this harmonize?

[Coop]

Yes, it seems I am quite the wishful thinker! The difference between 9 and 10 is the +1 casting, so thought that might be the wording/reason for comp, but it seems I'm incorrect. I will have to rework the list. One direction would be to drop the BSB pegasus for a CoK BSB. Reduce one of the warlocks to 5 and make the other one 10. Then I think I would have 3 for the warlocks and 2 for the mounted characters. Not sure I have too many other options with the units I have.

Another option would be to drop the SS off the mount and put her in the executioners with a BWS and do the whole life bunker. I could still have 2 units of 10 warlocks that way.

[Ajattaro]

Im also wondering about the comp of "other 2(or thereof) mounted caharcters" if it includes characters on DS or peg, or is just comp for other mounted characters (like CoB, CO and manti etc.)

It used to be like that, and that word "other" is disambiguous. I stand by the interpretion that DS and peg mounted chars are comped individually. At least it used to be like so that you can take 1 DS/peg for a comp point or 1-2 any other mounts a comp point. I see that it has changed so, that you can take one dragon/manticore/CO/CoB etc without spending a comp point. At least main consensus was in TWF forum that old comp did not courage to use any other mounts than Dsteeds and pegasi

[Coop]

Ok, here is a legal list that I can field.

2398/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - CoK, Talisman of Preservation, heavy armor, lance, enchanted shield, BSB

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician, Standard
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician, Standard

SPECIAL
8 x Shades - Great Weapons, musician
9 x CoK - Musician, Banner of Swiftness
30 x Executioners - Full command

RARE
10 x Warlocks
5 x Warlocks

So comp choices: 3 warlocks, 1 SS on dark steed, 1 for multiple mounted characters

The strategy would be to put the executioner horde near the center of the table and then try to evenly spread out the warlocks, CoKs, and witches on the flanks. Use the warlocks and Dark Riders to kill off chaff and try to direct my opponent towards the executioners in the middle. If they get charged and can hold up a turn (which will hopefully be possible with all those high S attacks), I'll be able to collapse on the center with a lot of flanking units. Unless I'm getting killed with magic or shooting, I think I'd be happy to wait for my opponent to come to me because I can be tossing out doombolts on important units as I wait.

Not sure if Dark Magic would make more sense in this list now.

[Thraundil]

The good news: your list is now legal.

The better news: 'non-OP' mounts only counts as a choice after the first. So your master on cold one is free. Well he still cost points, but you know. His magic items though... Its some weird kind of point optimization to go with the enchanted shield? Heavy armour and ench. shield is 9 points for 1+ armour save. Buying a sea dragon cloak and a mundane shield would be 8 points and would accomplish the same thing. This makes your points total down to 2397. Those three points? Spend them on upgrading the mundane shield to the charmed version, giving your all-important BSB that much more safety

What I sorely miss in your list are RBT's. I would seriously recommend getting those models, they make up so much board control. They are invaluable chaff removers - and with primary close combat list, you desperately need them! If you can get the models, get rid of the shades to fit them in. You dont even need to cut warlocks - you're one pool choice golden. I'd even consider dropping a few executioner numbers to get all 4 in the list. If you cannot get the models for financial or time constraint reasons... Well, as long as you play well you can play around it, but be ready for your blocks to be redirected a lot. In this regard, if you are used to playing daemons: dark elves can in 90% of cases not take a charge. Unless you can counter redirect (with expensive dark rider units), do NOT get baited into charging that eagle. They WILL have countercharges, and your fragile T3, low armour troops will vanish.

With regards to magic choice, I'd go with shadow. With warlocks, you have (possibly multiple) instances of magic missiles. Lore of shadow complements this with a selection of hexes, and the all-powerful "test or die" spell. Skip mindrazor in most ETC tournaments. If you need mindrazor to get through in order to win, you're playing wrong. If mindrazor would be "alot of fun", its very likely a simple toughness or strength hex would do the job just fine.

[Coop]

Awesome response, thanks! I will fix the cold one BSB.

I currently don't have any bolt throwers, but I don't think it would be particularly hard to get my hands on some and get them painted for the tournament. I could move to the below list then.

2397/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - Dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - CoK, Talisman of Preservation, light armor, charmed shield, SDC, BSB

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician, Standard
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician, Standard

SPECIAL
9 x CoK - Full Command, 5 point magic weapon on champion for etherial units, Banner of Swiftness
18 x Executioners - Full command
4 x Bolt Thrower

RARE
10 x Warlocks
5 x Warlocks

That gives me comp 5 (3 for warlocks, 1 for SS mounted, and 1 for Bolt Throwers). I've got quite a lot of command and not sure if I can rework those points into something else.

[Thraundil]

Like!
You can certainly put pressure with this list. Remember not to be afraid of also throwing your big warlock unit into the fray if the chance presents itself. Get your units working together against close combat oriented opponents, and get your units after the right targets. Good luck

[Ajattaro]

Wow, really deadly looking list! With small investment on characters you get to bring lot of power to the table. Warlocks really help in this matter. I must warn you that many opponents wont like seeing that many bros on the table...

What I would change is the number of banners. Small units of DR and WE could ditch banners. Although, you would like to have flaming banner somewhere. Maybe leave one unit of WE with flaming banner. Then you would get fortitude of 6, which is enough for sure.

By reducing banners you could get an executioner or two.

[Thraundil]

I must warn you that many opponents wont like seeing that many bros on the table...

This should only ever be a concern if you dont play to win

[Lord hajjij]

You're going to miss your Shades. At minimum, I suggest removing one RBT, finding 7 extra points, (Draich-Master? 1 Witch Elf?) and getting one unit of 5. Personally, I'd consider 2x5. Shades are unbelievably good. Blocking vanguards, shooting enemy fast cavalry w/ BS5, forcing leadership tests to march, double flee shenanigans, providing cover to your Witches, etc. An 80 point unit you can just throw away to give one of your units a favourable charge.

Where are you planning on parking your Sorceress? Clearly you can move her around, but if you're starting the game with her somewhere, I'd consider a champion for that unit in case you're charged by a flying character so he can challenge and die in her place. Since your taking Shadow, if you're charged (enemy turn) your champion allows you to survive into your turn and hopefully get a spell off to switch spots with your 1+/4++ Master BSB. (lore attribute...) There are lots of sweet tricks possible here.

Consider moving the Banner of Swiftness onto the Executioners.

Finally, seems like a weird suggestion but I think it's useful. Shrieking Blade on the Sorceress. With only a 6+ armor save, it could be useful to increase survivability against suicide units, either by preventing your WS from dropping (i.e. Furies) or by dropping theirs and forcing 5+ to hit.

[Coop]

I like those suggestions. By switching the banners around a bit, I can give one unit of witches Banner of the Eternal Flame, give the executioners Banner of Swiftness, and give the 10 warlocks and 10 dark riders champions.

I plan to put the sorceress into the 10 warlocks to start so that they are nearly immune to magic, but I would also put them into the 10 dark riders if it turned out they were in a much better position. Plus, the dark riders would have a 4+ 4++ against magic, which is a an extremely mobile and relatively durable bunker.

With the banner switches, I'd be at fortitude 7, which is very solid. I will have to think a little more about the shades. It's definitely a good suggestion. I would just drop a bolt thrower and slip in a unit to negate vanguards and act as additional chaff. Magic weapon on the SS is also an interesting suggestion. I can drop a musician somewhere to find her the points. I'll think on that one a bit more as well.

2397/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - Dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - CoK, Talisman of Preservation, light armor, charmed shield, SDC, BSB

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
14 x Witches - Musician
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Full Command

SPECIAL
9 x CoK - Full Command, 5 point magic weapon on champion for etherial units
18 x Executioners - Musician, Banner of Swiftness
4 x Bolt Thrower

RARE
10 x Warlocks, champion
5 x Warlocks

[Lord hajjij]

I like those suggestions. By switching the banners around a bit, I can give one unit of witches Banner of the Eternal Flame, give the executioners Banner of Swiftness, and give the 10 warlocks and 10 dark riders champions.

I plan to put the sorceress into the 10 warlocks to start so that they are nearly immune to magic, but I would also put them into the 10 dark riders if it turned out they were in a much better position. Plus, the dark riders would have a 4+ 4++ against magic, which is a an extremely mobile and relatively durable bunker.

To me, that's a perfect setup! You must take a few minor/unorthodox steps to protect the Sorceress since you're going no Ward. Being able to change units and be protected by numbers/champions is good enough considering her speed and Ring.

With the banner switches, I'd be at fortitude 7, which is very solid. I will have to think a little more about the shades. It's definitely a good suggestion. I would just drop a bolt thrower and slip in a unit to negate vanguards and act as additional chaff. Magic weapon on the SS is also an interesting suggestion. I can drop a musician somewhere to find her the points. I'll think on that one a bit more as well.

Yep, something to think about. Your army has pretty good composition considering that all your units are more or less sacrificial. (if needed) That's a big advantage over Death Star lists. I think the Shades really contribute to that overall advantage. People talk about taking redundant units to facilitate their advantage - like taking 2-3 cannons...why can't the same concept be applied to speed/manoeuvrability/deployment?

Their cost of 1 RBT is really negligible since the shooting from the unit isn't overall THAT much worse compared to the Reaper if you're picking the right targets. (easy to do for Scouts) If you get the 1st turn you're looking at minimum one volley of 10 shots hitting on 4+, and probably more including a potential Stand and Shoot on their way to redirecting a charge.

In any case, good luck! Really like the army overall.

[Lord hajjij]

I actually think this list is illegal now given draft 3 of the ETC comp...

Each dark steed Character (Sorceress)...1
Each 2 or part thereof mounted characters after the 1st (BSB)...1
1+ RBT...1
Each 5 or part thereof Warlocks...1

Think your army adds up to 6 choices.

[Coop]

So it says:

1. Each pegasus or dark steed mounted character
2. Each two or part thereof other characters on mounts after the first

The second one says "other" characters on mounts. So I imagined that means characters other than the ones on dark steeds or pegasus's that you already paid the comp for in 1. So the first cold one character is free since it's the only "other" character on mount.

Your interpretation is how I first read it, but that means dark steeds and pegasus's are double comped.

Does someone have the correct interpretation of the rule?

If I am over comped I might drop 5 warlocks and add in the shades.

[Ajattaro]

So the question about comp is that if that second clause on mounted characters includes those DS/peg mounted characters mentioned in first clause. It think it does not. Atleast others versions of comp have been that way, and ETC rules jury is just encouraging to use of other mounts than DS/pegs. I admit that wording is more unclear in this comp.

[Gastronauticon]

I really like the list. Very flexible and hard hitting. Consider the idea stolen!

As far as the comp goes, I would argue that you might as well go with the interpretation that the "other"-bit on mounted is separate from ds/peg. As such, your bsb would unfortunatley be a power choise on his own (well, a half rounded up...). This means dropping five warlocks, allowing for shades and peace of mind. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. Depending on your meta, a Ruby Ring for your L4 could also be afforable for the saved points. Fire damage in the magic phase is nice indeed.

Furthermore, if you feel like shadow is unsuited to your play style, dark does fulfill a number of the same functions, especially when supplemented with double brolocks.

[Ajattaro]

DS and peg mounted characters are not counted towards the same comp as you manti BSB, hence he is free. It can be found out in TWF discussion where they device and talk about versions of ETC restrictions
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=128275

[Coop]

So I played a game with the list and I really enjoyed it. I beat up on a Legions of Chaos list that wasn't playing ETC restrictionl. I was able to claim the win and mostly everything performed well. I think Lore of Shadow is definitely a good fit for this list.

2397/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - Dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - CoK, Talisman of Preservation, light armor, charmed shield, SDC, BSB

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
14 x Witches - Musician
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Full Command

SPECIAL
9 x CoK - Full Command, 5 point magic weapon on champion for etherial units
18 x Executioners - Musician, Banner of Swiftness
4 x Bolt Thrower

RARE
10 x Warlocks, champion
5 x Warlocks


HOWEVER! I realized I put down 18 executioners, but I have only been playing with 16. I was planning to do 8x2. So dropping 2 executioners frees up points so that now I am only at 2373. Additionally, I realized the ring of hotek is a little bit of overkill if I'm in with the warlocks, since they'll only benefit from 2 points of magic resistance. If I switch it for the obsidian amulet, then I have 47 points to spare. Anyone see places I can spend the points wisely?

One possibility is to put the ruby ring onto the SS and keep ring of hotek. Or the Ruby Ring onto the CoK champion since he'll cast it on a roll of 3.

Another option is to drop the 5 point magic item on the CoK champion and then spend the 30 points on another body so its 6 in the front, 5 in the back.

Any other thoughts? Thanks!

[Thraundil]

Keep the ring of hotek! The warlocks may waste the final point of MR, but consider this:
What if she starts the game within the cold one knights, giving them magic protection in turn one?
What if she becomes the target of death snipes (something our characters are vulnerable to, with spirit leech as a possible exception)?
- Keep the sorceress close to your opponents valuable targets (does he play lore of metal? keep her close to knights, for example). By close I mean 6". The ring doubles the miscast risk of your opponent. Yes. Doubles. Throwing big dice at spells whens he is nearby is so so risky. That is EASILY worth 20 points.

[Ajattaro]

Yes, keep the ring, it is really good for its cost even it gives MR overkill sometimes. You could easily squeeze some shade into the list as you are nowhere near the 80 shots cap. They could helo you out a lot. Dropping one RBT for shades would not hurt your shooting capability at all but bring versatility to your list.

This looks really nice. Mind if I rip this off? Used to have something like this with older comp set.

[Coop]

Yes, keep the ring, it is really good for its cost even it gives MR overkill sometimes. You could easily squeeze some shade into the list as you are nowhere near the 80 shots cap. They could helo you out a lot. Dropping one RBT for shades would not hurt your shooting capability at all but bring versatility to your list.

This looks really nice. Mind if I rip this off? Used to have something like this with older comp set.

Absolutely! That's half the reason to post the lists!

So I think this will be the final list below. I dropped 1 RBT for 5 shades which will help to deny vanguards. I gave them extra hand weapons so they can murder dogs and then a musician for the +1 to rally.


2399/2400

LORDS
SS (General) - Dark steed, Ring of Hotek, Level 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll

HEROES
Master - CoK, Talisman of Preservation, light armor, charmed shield, SDC, BSB, Lance

CORE
14 x Witches - Musician, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
14 x Witches - Musician
5 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Musician
10 x Dark Riders - Xbows, Shields, Full Command

SPECIAL
9 x CoK - Full Command, 5 point magic weapon on champion for etherial units
18 x Executioners - Musician, Banner of Swiftness
3 x Bolt Thrower
5 x Shades - Extra Hand Weapon, Musician

RARE
10 x Warlocks, champion
5 x Warlocks

[Ajattaro]

Thats it, now it is ready! Good luck with your tournament if it hasn't passed yet

[anglais]

4th rbt is better than 5 shades IMO.
6+9 DR are better than 5+10.
I would seriously consider 18 exes, as their headcount is really low, it will be difficult to win their points back. if you want to have detachment msu, I would consider changing them to 10+10.
I would consider COC as well, as they cost about 500 points with the character and you do not have even OTC. thus they will die in every game you play against flyer hadhitters like Chaos lords or dragons.

[Coop]

4th rbt is better than 5 shades IMO.
6+9 DR are better than 5+10.
I would seriously consider 18 exes, as their headcount is really low, it will be difficult to win their points back. if you want to have detachment msu, I would consider changing them to 10+10.
I would consider COC as well, as they cost about 500 points with the character and you do not have even OTC. thus they will die in every game you play against flyer hadhitters like Chaos lords or dragons.

I see no reason to increase my sacrificial unit of 5 DR to 6. It also doesn't seem worth it to lower 10 to 9. More bodies is better for a potential SS bunker.

5 shades can block vanguard, which a RBT can't.

16 executioners in 8x2 has actually been very good in the games I've used them. I've helped hold up and eventually kill a ghoul horde on the flank in one game and then a soul grinder in another. 18 might be worth it just incase they get shot at, I can lose 2 without losing attacks.

You're right, CoK are not the most competitive choice possible, but it doesn't cost me in the comp and they're already painted, so I don't have much flexibility there.