Thematic 1000/1500 pts army against High Elves and Dwarves

[Speedle]

Hello, fellow blood-thirsty people,

a friend of mine has just got the Island of Blood kit, plus some Sisters of Avelorns and (I think) some more infantry. Also, I would be playing against another friend with a dwarven army (don't know the composition). Having said that, I would like to play them with some Dark Elves, possibly with a thematic army. For the moment, I would prefer to only use my DE, but I don't reject the possibility of joining the Skaven army (from IoB pack, plus a Doomwheel) and play a battle DE+Skaven vs HE+Dwarves (very improbable alliances...). I have never played Warhammer, so everything is new to me.

I haven't bought the models, yet. The idea for a small army is that a Dreadlord is in a larger scale battle against HE, and my army is a battalion fighting in a small part of the battelfield (maybe it's covering a flank). Here's my list so far (992 pts):

• Master on Cold One <-- He's the commander of the battalion, I think I will use him with the Cold One Knights
  Cloak of Twilight
  Gambler's Armour
  Spellshield
  
• Sorceress lvl 2 <-- Dark Magic, maybe Death Magic. I'd rather not give her the Sacrificial Dagger because story-wise I don't think that a "normal" sorceress would have access to it.
  Dispel Scroll (or Tome of Furion)
  
• 20x Bleakswords, full command <-- I think I will use them as a sort of "anvil" unit; I don't think Corsairs or, even worse, Black Guards would be fitting story-wise
  
• 10x Darkshards, full command <-- those will protect the sorceress
  Shield
  
• 5x Dark Riders, full command <-- warmachine hunting, harassment
  Repeated Xbow, Shield
  
• 5x Cold One Knights, full command <-- going for the flanks, hammer unit, probably the Master will ride with them

I would like to keep those models, because I think they are quite fitting story-wise and "simpler" to use in battle (and adding more at a later time, I'm planning another sorceress, an RBT, maybe an assassin) but if you can justify the presence of some other model, please feel free to expose your idea.

Thanks

[Daeron]

I'll reply in more detail, considering everything is new to you. I'm not an expert but there are a few things I'd consider.

The Master on Cold One
What is wrong
- I would not give him the Cloak of Twilight. Although it is a fun item, it's fairly expensive and expertly suited for a lone model, like a Master or Dreadlord on pegasus. While the character is in a unit, the cloak's save will only help in a few occasions. Shooting and magic tends to be distributed as shooting. A cannonball grants a "sir look out" roll if the character is mounted on a horse or cold one, and (s)he is in a cavalry unit. Only if this roll is failed, does the cloak show its worth. Once the character is in close combat, the cloak won't offer protection.
- The Gambler's Armour and Spellshield can not be combined, as both are magical armour.
- The point allowance for magic items is 50 points for a Master. You took 100 points. If you want 100 points of magic items, you need a Dreadlord.

Offense
If we want to boost the offensive abilities of a Master or Dreadlord, there are plenty of options:

• Great Weapon: terrific choice, but you lose the rerolls to hit. This is a good way to make the character very solid against a diverse set of enemies, but there's a risk of missing many attacks. Required 2 hands, so can't be combined with a shield in combat.
• Halberd: not a bad choice, but the character stays stuck at S5. This means it's strong against most infantry and some monsters, but weaker against some of the toughest opponents. Requires 2 hands, so can't be combined with a shield.
• Lance: excellent in combination with a shield, but it does make the character a one-hit wonder. This combines well with the Cloak of Twilight or a cavalry unit. Keep in mind the performance will degrade rapidly after the charge.
• Sword of Anti-Heroes: cheap and very useful to take on some of those units with multiple characters. Can be combined with a shield. Popular to combine it with the Other Trickster Shard to make the character effective against heroes
• Sword of Might, Ogre Blade and Giant Blade: they are interesting because they combine with a shield but usually people prefer to save the points for a defensive kit.

Defense
You'll want to defend your Master against incoming attacks. There are many ways to do it.

• Dawnstone: one of the best choices, cost-value, for a character with a 1+ armour save. Imagine taking a Strength 5 hit, then you get an armour save of 3+ and a 3+ reroll which beats any ward save you can get.
• Talisman of Endurance and Talisman of Preservation: if you want a ward save, most people go all the way and go for the 4+ armour save. It's a solid choice but leaves out little points for an offensive kit.
• Cloak of Twilight: rule of thumb is to put it on a character with a pegasus mount
• Charmed shield: for a cheap Master, this is usually an excellent choice to give him that extra life saver. Some people would put it on a pegasus, to force the enemy to waste a shot at the pegasus. Personally, I'd rather use it in combat, to make sure one very valuable attack gets blocked.

Choice of mount
You put the character on a Cold One. I assume the reason is fluff and the model.
In my experience (well, from reading people's army lists) it's always a choice between putting the Master on a Dark Steed or a Cold One. The Cold One gives the Master an extra armour save, and a slightly stronger mount. The Dark Steed makes the Master faster (M9) and fast cavalry. This means he can join a unit of Dark Riders or Warlocks and the whole unit can still move as swiftly as before.
However, when the character is on a Cold One, putting the character in a unit of Dark Riders or Warlocks makes the whole unit move at M7, test for stupidity and it loses the fast cavalry rule.

So, there are quite a few reasons to favour the Dark Steed, which doesn't prohibit the character from joining cold ones at all. There is 1 notable advantage of the Cold One: it gives 1 extra armour save +2 compared to the Dark Steed which only gives +1.

This means that, if the character wears heavy armour and a sea dragon cloak, the character already has a 1+ armour save with the cold one. It doesn't need a shield. A character on a Dark Steed would need another item (helm or shield) to give it a 1+ armour save.

Then there is the pegasus, which is one of the best mounts around if you want a flying character. It comes at a price though: the character loses the "sir look out" rule. This usually means that the character needs a good ward save against ranged attacks (Cloak of Twilight, Talisman of Preservation).

A few builds

• Master, Dark Steed, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Other Trickster Shard
• Master, Dark Steed, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dragonhelm, Greatsword, Dawnstone
• Master, Cold One, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Great Weapon, dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon
• Master, Cold One, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation
• Master, Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Lance, Cloak of Twilight

...

Sorceress level 2
The Dispel Scroll is a near must item
Personally, I prefer to have at least 3 spells in a game. If you want a third spell, you can give the Sorceress the Ruby Ring of Ruin. It's not terrific, but in a small game that's actually a handy extra

Bleakswords
They are not my preferred unit, for they lack damage. But give them a shot and see how you like them!

Darkshards
I would give them the musician only. The musician helps for swift reforms and to break ties in combat resolution. Keep in mind that, at only 10 big, they aren't a very solid backup for the Sorceress.

An interesting option is to give them banner of eternal flame. However, some units in both Dwarfs and High Elves, have 2+ ward saves against flaming attacks... So it's a risky bet considering your opponents.

Dark Riders
I would remove the champion and banner. Dark Riders are typically used for hunting small units, and baiting/fleeing. The banner could actually give away points to the enemy. That said, it's not a crime to have it... It might just turn the tide a few times!

Cold Ones
Excellent choice. I would consider giving them a magic banner:
- Gleaming Pennant, if you don't have a Battle Standard Bearer. This helps them pass their stupidity as well.
- Standard of Discipline. This is always a good banner for the unit carrying a leadership 9 general. The unit already has the General's leadership, and can boost the general to Ld 10 for the benefit of other units. In this case, if the general leaves the unit, it's not a problem since the unit already has maximum leadership.
- Banner of Swiftness, which really helps the Cold Ones to cross the board quicker.
- Razor Standard really boosts the performance of the unit, but I consider a 5-big unit a bit small for such an expensive banner.

[Daeron]

I should add... That all in all the list you present doesn't look so powerful, even if you optimize the unit choices inidividually. Generally, Dark Elves need their mobility. You have 1 fast cavalry unit and 1 cavalry unit. That's the bare minimum. You could solve this by putting the Master on a pegasus, which would give you 3 mobile threats. But it's not a sure shot. Another unit of Warlocks of Dark Riders would really help this list.

It lacks some punch as well, so I would consider a magic lore that helps in that department. I would not pick Lore of Death considering you want the Sorceress to stay away from the action.
- Dark Magic is a solid choice, but it has a bit of a range issue. You may be forced to put the Darkshards in the middle of your deployment zone to have her back up the battle.
- Lore of Shadow is ideal, but it lacks damage. The Ruby Ring helps there, but it's still weak in ranged damage. On the other hands, it's a bliss against the Dwarven shooting and a big help in combat with the High Elves.
- Lore of Fire is a solid choice for offensive magic for such a small game.. but it won't help you against the toughest opponents. (Perhaps balance this with the Master?)

[Speedle]

Wow, that's a very informative post, thank you. I'll take some time to digest it; I'm already considering buying a box of Warlocks.

I like the idea of putting the Master on a Dark Steed to get him fast where he's needed, but I'm worried that make him join a cavalry unit other than Cold One Knights would make him too vulnerable (not enough "escort" to protect him).

Also, do you think that switching Bleakswords to Dreadspears would make them better as an anvil? (I don't plan to actually use them as a real anvil, but something that resembles it... I'm planning to be quite manoeuvrable).

[Daeron]

The current rules benefit the bleak swords better than the dread spears. I prefer the dread spears for style purposes.
The Master may have better cover in the cold one unit, but the key with fast cavalry is to manoeuvre more safely (which they can do so easily). Either way, once the cold one unit has taken a notable amount of casualties, it's always better to have some backup than no backup.

If you plan to build this list based on a Dark Elf Warhorst box, I would consider using the Corsairs as anvil and increasing the number of Darkshards. Corsairs wouldn't be a rare sight in a campaign against High Elves and Dwarfs.

Something like..

- Master, build as you like
- 20 Corsairs, full command
- 14 Darkshards, shields, musician
- 5 Cold One Knights
- Cold One Chariot
- 5 Warlocks

You can save points by using a unit of Warlocks to replace both Dark Riders and Sorceress. It's not as fun, I'll admit, but for a small game that's a good way to save some points. Alternatively, you can skip the Master and just get the Sorceress. Ideally, I'd trade the Chariot for a faster unit, like another fast cavalry unit or Shades. But it should be a good list for a first set of games

[Speedle]

So, using the Warhost (just starting, I've to buy the paints too, so I don't want to spend too much), 1250 pts:

• Black Ark Fleetmaster <-- can he use a shield? Will go with the Corsairs
  Talisman of Preservation
  Maybe Warrior Bane?
• 10 Darkshards, full command
  Shield
  Banner of Eternal Flame
• 10 Darkshards, full command
  Shield
  Maybe another banner?
• 20 Corsairs, full command
  Additional hand weapons
• 1 COC
• 5 COK, full command
  Banner of Swiftness
• 5 Warlocks, full command

I'd really like to get one of the Master build you explained in your previous posts, but then what to do with the Fleetmaster? Just fight with the Corsairs?

[T.D.]

That looks a decent little list.

With the Fleetmaster; you don't have to use the model as an actual Fleetmaster.

=> Use him as a Master instead

[Speedle]

That looks a decent little list.

With the Fleetmaster; you don't have to use the model as an actual Fleetmaster.

=> Use him as a Master instead

Yep, I think I'm going to use him as a Master on foot, embedded with the Corsairs.

As a side note: shouldn't the sharp edge of the blade/leg be on the front? I can't picture him "stabbing" or, worse, back-kicking someone (taekwondo style) in order to hit with the sharp edge.

[tehnico]

As a side note: shouldn't the sharp edge of the blade/leg be on the front? I can't picture him "stabbing" or, worse, back-kicking someone (taekwondo style) in order to hit with the sharp edge.

Roundhouse kicks, Bruce 'Ilthuryn' Lee.