1500pts - Temple of Khaine list

[Daeron]

Greetings,

Past friday I played a quick match against Dwarfs. I chose the temple of khaine and quickly improvised a list. I didn't want a sorceress, limited dark riders (if any), and no combat troops other than temple of khaine troops with Shades playing as "assassin apprentices".
I considered to make two units of executioners or a big executioner star, but this would force me to rely on a lot of support troops from the core so I gravitated towards witch elves instead... which subsequently cut out the room for executioners.

295 - Dread Lord on Peg, HA, SDC, Great Weapon, Cloak of Twilight, Dragon helm, Dawnstone
300 - Hag, Cauldron of Blood, BSB
383 - 28 Witch Elves, Banner, Musician, Champion, Razor Standard
90 - 5 Shades, Additional Hand Weapon
90 - 5 Shades, Additional Hand Weapon
90 - 5 Shades, Additional Hand Weapon
125 - 5 Warlocks
125 - 5 Warlocks

I do fear I brought a bit too much filth for a 1500 points game, but then my opponent brought 4 gyros o.O

Anyhow... comments are welcome.

[herpesFree]

Was it a winner?
I really want to try CoB/Witch Elves seems like it could be devastating. Does the CoB sit up the front within the Witch Elves unit or does it kinda tag along close by?

[Daeron]

It was a victory, by some 300-400 points if I remember correctly. The COB was in the unit of Witch Elves, for the ward save and to deploy them in horde formation with 4 ranks (try to stop that, hah!).

I'm not sure I'd call it an adequate benchmark. There were some oddities and a few unexpected rolls that could have changed the game. So, it wasn't as reliable a victory as the points might indicate.

Still.. a few interesting results:
- Because of the 5++ on the Witches, and the COB cutting his tear drop templates effectiveness in half, he had to commit considerably to kill plenty of them.
- Even at half of their original strength, the witch elves still devastated his units in combat, killing one unit of irondrakes and one unit of warriors with a BSB. They had lost most models by this time, (mostly to shooting) and I'm not sure they had enough bodies left to crush a third unit.
- Along the way I had to reform the Witch Elves 7-wide because the benefit of the Horde was gone, and to get some ranks back to break his steadfast. It was convenient for mobility at that point as well. This was after I destroyed his irondrakes, so I had a free reform option.
- The Dreadlord is a build inspired by Knighted during the UB tournament. I dearly recommend the build. The lord single handedly charged the rear of his irondrakes, keeping their shooting at bay for a while before I decimated them in combat with the Witches. He was winning combat solidly, but couldn't break steadfast.
- In terms of support, I was pleasantly surprised by the effectiveness of using 3 small units of Shades vs my usual 2 larger units of shades. It makes them hard to deal with apparently.

A strange weakness is the lack of deployment steps. After the Warlocks you have to deploy the witch elves, which reveals your battleplan. Then comes the characters and you're done. 4 steps only. It helps to get +1 on the roll for first turn, but you have to read the terrain and play 'safe'.

[herpesFree]

Nice recap! Nice win!

I've had the same problem in terms of deployment. At 1000pts and no extremely cheap chaffy units I find it hard to get a leg up. Do you think it would be worth squeezing DRs in their to have more units for deployment?

[Daeron]

All I can drop is a unit of Shades and maybe a Witch to make up for the points. I'm not sure I'd be better off though. I already have 2 units of fast cavalry... The shades have helped me better with their shooting and slightly superior close combat abilities.

The unit of Witches could be reduced to 21, at which size they are still a force to be reckoned with, but they become vulnerable to mass fire which starts to creep in at 1500 points. That's a gamble if it's your only combat unit.

[paxter]

I can share some experience playing as a dwarves player.

Some tips -
- Witches are great if they get there... If i can remove 28 sword masters with the banner of the world dragon with only 3 guys remaining by the time they charge I would worry using witches.

- You must, and I MEAN MUST kill all those gyros once your fast units are gone they will be harassing you pretty much at their own will. And If he is like me I would focus on that witches the bigger the block the better since those flame templates love big blocks. And he has 4 gyro even if 2 get there that is 2 flame templates u can actually cover 24 models easily. And even then If you were facing me that first turn if i had no choice I rather use my organ guns on those remaining guys left over from the gyro.

- Mobility is their Achilles heel if you can run rings into their lines removing their guns the dwarves are doomed

- Dwarf standard save is 4+ and 5++ on the turn they get charge... no right minded dwarf leaves home without a shield and heavy armour. And everyone can take a shield esp their range units

- IF your opponent gets hatred for his whole army, Do not let the dwarves charge, apart form getting hatred they will get +1S. In my build I carry 30 quarrellers with a rune priest if I want to - I can charge them at S4 - hatred and armour piercing

- In my build I usually have at least 20 hammerers and a bsb with banner of grugni,4++ ward and 5++ ward from shooting and magical missiles for any unit 6" from him. And the unit standerd bearer will carry the stubborn bubble banner. If he rolls with those u must kill them asap. I have won easily against dark elves because although they can throw heavy punch. I can come back bloodied and just hammer them down in a grind game... Elves dont do well in a grinding game.

[Daeron]

Hm, thanks for sharing that. I do fight that opponent quite a lot, but I lack experience against the latest book.

Still, a few details to take into account. A gyro's tear template doesn't seem to cover 24 Witch Elves as the COB eats up so much space. The Cauldron of blood cuts the unit in half, with 3 files on one side and 4 files on the other side. Starting at 4 ranks, that's 16 hits top, 12 for the other flank. I guarded the 16 model flank with my dreadlord. On averge he could score 2-3 dead witches per gyro. The Witch Elves are more resilient to gyro fire than Swordmasters. Swordmasters only have a 5+ armour save, reduced to 6+ because of armour piercing. They aren't immune to panic AFAIK. The Witch Elves have a 5++ ward thanks to the Cauldron. That's double the defence. And they can not panic while they remain frenzy. The Witch Elves carry most of their combat power in the front rank. I could lose half the unit and still have most of its combat power. If I lost the COB, then my witches would be a whole lot more vulnerable to all kinds of damage. I also feared/focused his irondrakes more than the gyros (equal or better firepower, stand and shoot, combat, and easier to catch).

Anyhow, the unit is far from invincible but I was impressed with the investment it took to weaken the unit. Even so, in terms of tactics, I think there was little else I could do. Not committing completely would have meant defeat. Terrain offered one nice path to his troops and I took it, for better or worse. For the glory of Khaine!

Looking back at the game though.. it seems my opponent was quite limited in actions to counter my list as well. Either he focused on support, and had raging witch elves trampling his units. Or he went all out on the witches and would have lost a lot of his support units. In retrospect, perhaps he should have gone all out on the witches, but seeing volley after volley kill only a few witches must have been disheartening.