Force Multipliers In the DE Army

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Post by Icon hack »

Well, I think the important thing to keep in mind is that often, the exact role of a unit is dependant upon the rest of the units in the list. Not only does the initial list sometimes alter the role of a given unit, but also the circumstances that you find yourself in at a particular moment in the game can change the role that a unit must fulfill.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

@MTU: Good points. Perhaps another qualifier would be the ability to negate ranks? I'd almost -- almost -- say that Harpies could be force multipliers, especially given my above definition... but I'm not 100% sure that their impact is quite enough to be truly a FM role. Normally, their goal is to take/hold TQ's, limit marching, and hunt the other army's SU's, right? Yeah, I think the correct distinction, then is:

BCU: Can take and hold ground. Has 1+ rank bonus and standard. Can negate Ranks.
FM: Can take and hold ground. Has 0-1 ranks. Can negate ranks.
SU: Cannot take or hold ground. has 0-1 ranks. Cannot negate ranks.

I think that actually is a pretty good breakdown...

As for how to use this... This is best used in conjunction with the Redundancy thread, as a mnemonic. You want redundancy in your roles, not necessarily your units. So you might have 2x20 spears, 1x20 corsairs, and 1x20 executioners, and you have 4 BCUs. If you have 2 dark riders, and a noble on chariot, and you have 3 FM's. If you have 2 x5 shades and 2 x RBTs, and you have 4 SU's....
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Post by Jeffleong13 »

This is a good point Maraith. And this is specifically what I asked for clarification on earlier in the thread. The fact of the matter is, pretty much every unit in the game can be considered an FM if you look for a strategy or combination with other units that will allow it to turn the tide of the battle on a local scale. It is the units that are capable of this the majority of the time on their own that are FM's. While combinations like ASH describes above could be considered, I don't know, "Constructed FM's" for lack of a better term, the definition put forth here for an FM would exclude them, since each unit, on its own is really only a support unit. Dyvim Tvar, this is also why the Hydra Banner is a support item.


Exactly true ... a force multiplier is very situational. Don't get overly attached to the label of force multiplier vs. support unit vs. main combat unit. The key, in my mind, is to remember that using multiple units together can ultimately be far more effective when used in synergy.

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Post by Underway »

Maraith Tuerl wrote:BCU: Can take and hold ground. Has 1+ rank bonus and standard. Can negate Ranks.
FM: Can take and hold ground. Has 0-1 ranks. Can negate ranks.
SU: Cannot take or hold ground. has 0-1 ranks. Cannot negate ranks.

I think that actually is a pretty good breakdown...


I think it is pretty good, but remember that many people will draw a line in different areas. When I started this thread I was vague on purpose. I didn't want to pigeon hole units overly much but felt that examples with explanations were best. I knew that there would be arguments.

So in going with your list I would agree to a point. Negating ranks is a key to being a force multiplier. That ususally gives a "significant" advantage in most circumstances. That is why I hesitate to put shades and harpies into the force multiplier section because under most circumstances they can only give +1, +2 to combat and often are more of a liability than an asset to combat res (low T, no armour, and weak killing abilities to most enemies).

With charging DR in a flank the risk is limited due to cav bases having two US per base, and their Str 4 on the charge as well as ability to negate ranks. I would be far more careful using harpies in the same role. I really belive that harpies are more specialized than DR and do not make good FM.

The definition must be considered if you are going to be drawing lines as well. If the addition of a unit into combat "significantly" changes the outcome of that combat than that would be a FM (remember a unit may change a combat causing a significant result, but that result was not a significant change in and of itself).

Given that any unit at any given time may "significantly" change a combat this becomes even more muddled. What I have been trying to do recently is look at units that often change a combat resolution to a "significant" one.

What may be a better way of looking at things is the way DA mentioned earlier. In army design. If you play MSU or a hybrid you can in your head assign roles to your units. Unit A is BCU. Unit B is a FM and Unit C is there to support the combat by ...... This way you can classify your units based on battlefield roles in relation to the rest of your army, which is the way it should be. That way in say, DA's blade list DR are actually a BCU with the noble and Dread Banner. Other DR act as FM or support through shooting. Everyone get where I'm heading with this??
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Well, I went away for Thanksgiving holiday motivated by Underway to write a topic on Force Multipliers, after addressing one of his posts about the Hydra in Druchii Discussion. I come back and here he has gone along and beaten me to it! Dirty, dirty Druchii! :lol:

Well, I'll post what I was originally going to write on the subject anyway even though I now look like a copycat...

I was originally inspired by the concept of Force Multipliers through my growing experience in Warmaster. In this game, characters and monsters are not "killy", but lend their support to troops to help tip the scales and win combats. Characters, for example, cannot fight units on their own and will be automatically killed in such engagements, but when fighting alongside their troops they can add any number of attacks to the units' total. Terror (which most monsters cause) also lends to combats by reducing the combat potential of the Terror causer's enemies, and thus reducing the amount the enemy can kill (which indirectly multiplies the potential of friendly forces by preserving them and causing them to outperform the enemy). Again, a Terror causing monster will usually get beaten down badly by a unit of troops, but in conjunction with their own troops, they can have a huge impact.

In Warhammer, I see Force Multipliers as units, abilities, or items that on their own are only marginally able, or in some cases unable, to win combats/cause damage against a "normal" ranked unit, but when combined with their own fighting troops in the form of ranks, standards, etc. can swing combats wide open in favor of the player utilizing them. The best example across all armies for such a tool is the chariot. On their own, chariots will have a hard time fighting a ranked infantry unit, but when combined with 3 ranks and a standard from infantry will blow a combat wide open and almost guarantee the enemy losing the combat. Prime examples of unique tools in the Dark Elf arsenal to provide force multiplication include the Hydra, Cauldron of Blood, Word of Pain, and Assassins. All things I have seen labeled as "crap" here by some, which leads me to my next point...

I think one defining characteristic of Force Multipliers is that they require the player to create their own opportunities, and thus a less able player will get less or no benefit at all from them relative to an experienced player. People too often get caught up in the "earning its points back" syndrome and fail to realize that sometimes a unit or item cannot kill a single enemy, but bring great value to the army. Although my Cauldron of Blood has never "earned its points back" and only accounted for one enemy kill so far in combat over a number of games, I still find it extremely valuable because of the benefit it provides in other ways. But this is somewhat of an unrelated topic and I digress...

Below is a list of what I feel are the best force multipliers in the Dark Elf army, in rough order of their value in this role.

Cauldron of Blood -- a pure force multiplier that has almost no other benefit to the army. On its own, this thing is next to worthless. But when combined with an MSU/MSE style army that brings high numbers of attacks (especially S3 attacks) to bear, it is worth its weight in gold. In the strictest sense, I view this as the ultimate force multiplier in our army and one then I feel every general should at least experiment with. I have enjoyed great success with it thus far, and I am thoroughly convinced that the vast majority of dissatisfaction with this Rare choice is that people have not designed armies to properly utilize its abilities. The most common fallacy I see written being that it is a "counter-attack" item requring shooting to force the enemy into its radius, which is absolute rubbish as this only serves to dillute your potential benefits (ie lack of combat units in favor of shooting).

Word of Pain -- Without a doubt (in my mind), this is now the best Dark Magic spell available and it has amazing force multiplication potential, both in terms of reducing enemy capability and increase friendly capability. I think the applications and reasoning are rather obvious, but this is one of the best force multipliers in our army without a doubt...

War Hydras / Cold One Chariots -- These operate in a very similar manner to each other and thus I have included them in the same heading. I have been thinking alot about the Hydra and how to best utilize its capabilities ever since Rob Lane came here and spoke so highly of it. In the end, much of the discussion and my own rethinking led me to believe that, as much as we all wanted/perceived otherwise, this thing is not a Giant, but a super-chariot, thus its inclusion here. Both the Chariots and Hydra operate much like characters in Warmaster and, when joined with a "standard" fighting unit, can cause so much extra damage (and possibly the reduction of enemy ranks) that they are well worth considering. Their small frontage relative to hitting potential makes them one of my top choices for force multiplication potential, as they can easily combo charge with almost any other unit and expect to gain their full offensive power. This small frontage is a huge benefit and not to be overlooked (although, I fear, it often is). Again, the player has to create the opportunity and not just charge blindly in, or they will be disappointed.

Manticores -- The uses of these things is rather obvious, but it is worth mentioning anyway. A timely charge by one of these can easily throw a combat, and they and their riders are resilient enough to not give too much benefit in resolution to the enemy. Just like Chariots and Hydras, these guys also benefit from a small frontage, which substantially increases their ability to act as a force multiplier. I did not include Dragons in this because they are often so strong (ane expensive) that they go beyond being mere Force Multipliers and being full fledged combat units, but some may not agree with me here...

Assassins -- In a key combat with a key (or to your enemy apparently "unkey") unit, this guy can pop out and cause intense carnage, completely off-balancing your enemy's attack/plan, and both gaining kills and reducing enemy opportunities to kill. He is somewhat of a hit or miss choice due to his low survivability and high points cost, but for the gambling type this guy can really swing a combat, and thus a game. A hidden Assassin is a rather obvious Force Multiplier in my mind...

Nobles -- Cheaply outfitted Nobles placed in units can add a nice boost to your kills in a combat and push the resolution in your favor. Standard stuff, but still worth mentioning. My favorite example is a Halberd armed Noble hanging in a unit of Executioners or a Dark Steed mounted Noble with a Lance in a COK unit (or even on his own).

Dark Riders -- LOL, I think you could write a list detailing any capability in the Dark Elf army, and these guys would be on it. They are just so diverse and versatile, and my respect for them just continues to grow and grow over the years... Specifically regarding force multiplication, at a key moment these guys can charge (from very far away) and reduce enemy ranks, thus reducing enemy potential and possibly swinging a combat your way. Unlike the other options mentioned, however, I feel that great care should be taken in their use for this role. Oftentimes they can be a liability as much as an asset in this situation, and if your enemy kills enough he will have benefited from their charge more than you. These have the potential to be force multipliers, but I do not feel it is their primary role or greatest strength.

Well, that is a basic summary of my thoughts on the topic. I'm sure there was some redundancy in points covered, but since I had taken the time to write it already I figured it was worth posting.

Cheers, and happy hunting! :)
Last edited by Grogsnotpowwabomba on Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Onyx paladin »

Icon, I think:

4. Learn to properly deploy each of the SU, FM, and BCUs in a way that thier strength can be maximized.
5. Actual transition from theory to practice.

This was great reading. It gives a lot to digest. I think the fuzzy lines of whether this or that is a SU or FM ultimately is in the eye of the beholder. If you believe that harpies can be used as FMs, by all means use them that way. I usually try and take out thier SUs first. Artillery (magic or mundane) can have a devesating effect if you give it time. Usually FMs take a little longer to set up and engage, so I would target them secondly. Leave thier BCUs for last. :)
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Post by Sentinel »

think the fuzzy lines of whether this or that is a SU or FM ultimately is in the eye of the beholder. If you believe that harpies can be used as FMs, by all means use them that way.



Spot on.

I think this is one of the more useful threads I've seen recently. In terms of putting theory into practice, WHFB has so much variety that is very difficult and will only come from playing the desired list repeatedly to polish it.

I find it most useful to read through the forums, taking notes, digesting and then putting it all away. Get the ideas in your subconscious then whip out your preferred army-builder and throw something together that 'feels' like it adheres to the theories. Then, go back to your notes and see if it lives up to the ideals. Then play.
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Post by Zorn »

Actually, i think Asger brings up a valid point. When i look around at a tournament i often see nothing than FM units (and probably 1 BCU) and - these armies tend to do good.

My personal opinion on this matter is - that's bad games design. ;)
Warhammer or, as i should put it, the most recently developed armies in warhammer (aka "modern armies") don't make good use of their BCU. Their FM are in fact so "forceful", that a combination of different FMs is often enough to decide the battle alone.

I call this the "40K syndrome". More mobile units which hit harder and are, as defined by their special rules, FMs or SUs, reach a state where they are so powerful that they transform into "multipurpose battle units". They fulfill every role so well, that there remains no need for "traditional" BCUs (like r&f infantry).

At least, the dark elves do not possess these units :roll: so maybe this thread will really accomplish something. :)

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Post by Asger »

Zorn wrote:Actually, i think Asger brings up a valid point. When i look around at a tournament i often see nothing than FM units (and probably 1 BCU) and - these armies tend to do good.

Exactly!

My personal opinion on this matter is - that's bad games design. ;)
Warhammer or, as i should put it, the most recently developed armies in warhammer (aka "modern armies") don't make good use of their BCU. Their FM are in fact so "forceful", that a combination of different FMs is often enough to decide the battle alone.

Maybe they don't make good use of their BCUs, or maybe their FMs are just to good even when acting in independent roles. This is indeed a flaw from the designers, either making these FMs to good/cheap or to common.
Btw. I really like the term "Modern Armies" :lol:


I call this the "40K syndrome". More mobile units which hit harder and are, as defined by their special rules, FMs or SUs, reach a state where they are so powerful that they transform into "multipurpose battle units". They fulfill every role so well, that there remains no need for "traditional" BCUs (like r&f infantry).

40K syndrome probably is an OK term. The Modern Armies atleast contain harder hitting and more manueverable units (now I just have to figure out what they sacrifice to get this :lol: )
I do disagree when you say they transform into "multipurpose battle units" though. A chariot army is a one trick pony, non of the chariots can do anything they can't do normaly, to some extent they actually have less options.


At least, the dark elves do not possess these units :roll: so maybe this thread will really accomplish something. :)

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Post by Mtucache »

Zorn wrote:Actually, i think Asger brings up a valid point. When i look around at a tournament i often see nothing than FM units (and probably 1 BCU) and - these armies tend to do good.

My personal opinion on this matter is - that's bad games design. ;)
Warhammer or, as i should put it, the most recently developed armies in warhammer (aka "modern armies") don't make good use of their BCU. Their FM are in fact so "forceful", that a combination of different FMs is often enough to decide the battle alone.

I call this the "40K syndrome". More mobile units which hit harder and are, as defined by their special rules, FMs or SUs, reach a state where they are so powerful that they transform into "multipurpose battle units". They fulfill every role so well, that there remains no need for "traditional" BCUs (like r&f infantry).


This is an excellent post, which I feel encapsulates the entire "problem" with the current Wood Elf list....which most feel is no fun to play against. Their list is so strictly put together that their only BCU is a Glade Guard unit, which as all MSU players know, is not worth fielding in units 3 or 4 ranks deep (because of the high cost of base elves). Meanwhile, their FM units are used almost exclusively as a "deceptive", "guerrilla" type army that shifts and dodges and goes for flank charges.....the aptly named "Wood Elf Trap". Treemen, Dryads, Wardancers, Glade Riders, and Warhawk Riders (all FMs)make up the entire army....while none of them are a self-sufficient battle force, all of them together make up a lethal combination when they are used in teams and with their respective dances and aspects....meanwhile the archers and mages play support roles. This style of play leads to a very "40k" type feel, as Zorn says....therefore leading to a totally different game play...leading to special rules like the "VPs for enemy units inside deployment zone", etc....match that with the ability to move terrain and some powerful magic, and you've got a perfect recipe for Velveeta (at least that's the general view on the list....I personally love the Wood Elf list).

Zorn wrote:At least, the dark elves do not possess these units :roll: so maybe this thread will really accomplish something. :)


I'm not so sure that this is the case, in fact, I'd say that Dark Elves and Wood Elves are the two armies most apt to abusing FM units while lacking in good BCU units. It's all in how you put together and use your army.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

MTUCache wrote:Wow, a true tactical discussion on the "Tactics Forum"....who woulda thunk it.


Yeah, start hanging out here enough and you'll see these from time to time. Those sticky threads up top didn't just come out of nowhere. ;)
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Post by Mtucache »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Yeah, start hanging out here enough and you'll see these from time to time. Those sticky threads up top didn't just come out of nowhere. ;)


Really, I thought those came with the forum....like wallpaper or something. :D

Anyway, don't mean to take this thread off course.....so, if we can all generally agree on which units make good FMs (at least in theory, if not practice).....let's see if we can take this one step further.

I hypothesize (lovin' that high school science class!) that in a battle where all else is equal, the use of these FM units is the determining factor of victory.

It's pretty much a given, whether your facing a horde or an elite army, that you're going to have a main hand to hand combat somewhere on the battlefield. This battle will in all likelyhood be between two BCU units, and last more than one turn, and the position and timing of this battle will put one general in a position to utilize his FM units in the most advantageous manner. Whichever general accomplishes this task will put his opponent at a serious disadvantage by eliminating his continuity and forcing his troops out of position. It is possible that more than one of these skirmishes will take place during the game, but it is most important that you have your FMs in the right place at the right time in order to push the tide of this decisive battle in your favor. Support units aside, and dependant largely on the factor of lucky dice rolls, this one key skirmish victory will win you the battle.

I'd also like to point out that it's not only who can get their units into the battle at the right time, but also who can get those units out of the battle in a timely fashion as to not expose them to the enemy for too long. It simply will not do to have your chariot/hydra/whatever in a prolonged battle, where your charge advantage has been nullified and your now a stationary target for more flank charges......
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Post by Underway »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Well, I went away for Thanksgiving holiday motivated by Underway to write a topic on Force Multipliers, after addressing one of his posts about the Hydra in Druchii Discussion. I come back and here he has gone along and beaten me to it! Dirty, dirty Druchii! :lol:

Hey I couldn't wait while you were gorging yourself on turkey :lol:

Well, I'll post what I was originally going to write on the subject anyway even though I now look like a copycat...

I was originally inspired by the concept of Force Multipliers through my growing experience in Warmaster. In this game, characters and monsters are not "killy", but lend their support to troops to help tip the scales and win combats. Characters, for example, cannot fight units on their own and will be automatically killed in such engagements, but when fighting alongside their troops they can add any number of attacks to the units' total. Terror (which most monsters cause) also lends to combats by reducing the combat potential of the Terror causer's enemies, and thus reducing the amount the enemy can kill (which indirectly multiplies the potential of friendly forces by preserving them and causing them to outperform the enemy). Again, a Terror causing monster will usually get beaten down badly by a unit of troops, but in conjunction with their own troops, they can have a huge impact.

Good example. It really helps to emphasise the uses of FM in a battle plan.

In Warhammer, I see Force Multipliers as units, abilities, or items that on their own are only marginally able, or in some cases unable, to win combats/cause damage against a "normal" ranked unit, but when combined with their own fighting troops in the form of ranks, standards, etc. can swing combats wide open in favor of the player utilizing them.

Hence the definition uses the word significant. Same idea different words.

The best example across all armies for such a tool is the chariot. On their own, chariots will have a hard time fighting a ranked infantry unit, but when combined with 3 ranks and a standard from infantry will blow a combat wide open and almost guarantee the enemy losing the combat. Prime examples of unique tools in the Dark Elf arsenal to provide force multiplication include the Hydra, Cauldron of Blood, Word of Pain, and Assassins. All things I have seen labeled as "crap" here by some, which leads me to my next point...

Often the label "crap" is confused with "not efficient for the points cost" or the "already have something that does that for cheaper" labels. We need to be careful when discussing these things that we don't confuse the issues.

I think one defining characteristic of Force Multipliers is that they require the player to create their own opportunities, and thus a less able player will get less or no benefit at all from them relative to an experienced player. People too often get caught up in the "earning its points back" syndrome and fail to realize that sometimes a unit or item cannot kill a single enemy, but bring great value to the army. Although my Cauldron of Blood has never "earned its points back" and only accounted for one enemy kill so far in combat over a number of games, I still find it extremely valuable because of the benefit it provides in other ways. But this is somewhat of an unrelated topic and I digress...

Good point about needing to be an able player, able players can often get away with only FM in their armies and no BCU against certain opponents. The main problem here is against as equally skilled opponents they often lose out because there are no BCU to do the work if their FM get smoked.

Below is a list of what I feel are the best force multipliers in the Dark Elf army, in rough order of their value in this role.

Cauldron of Blood -- a pure force multiplier that has almost no other benefit to the army. On its own, this thing is next to worthless. But when combined with an MSU/MSE style army that brings high numbers of attacks (especially S3 attacks) to bear, it is worth its weight in gold. In the strictest sense, I view this as the ultimate force multiplier in our army and one then I feel every general should at least experiment with. I have enjoyed great success with it thus far, and I am thoroughly convinced that the vast majority of dissatisfaction with this Rare choice is that people have not designed armies to properly utilize its abilities. The most common fallacy I see written being that it is a "counter-attack" item requring shooting to force the enemy into its radius, which is absolute rubbish as this only serves to dillute your potential benefits (ie lack of combat units in favor of shooting).

I'm not so sure about it being the best force multiplier, but I haven't yet played a list specifically designed to use it. I am however painting up more witchelves as we speak, and look forward to giving it a better playtest.

Word of Pain -- Without a doubt (in my mind), this is now the best Dark Magic spell available and it has amazing force multiplication potential, both in terms of reducing enemy capability and increase friendly capability. I think the applications and reasoning are rather obvious, but this is one of the best force multipliers in our army without a doubt...

Agreed

War Hydras / Cold One Chariots -- These operate in a very similar manner to each other and thus I have included them in the same heading. I have been thinking alot about the Hydra and how to best utilize its capabilities ever since Rob Lane came here and spoke so highly of it. In the end, much of the discussion and my own rethinking led me to believe that, as much as we all wanted/perceived otherwise, this thing is not a Giant, but a super-chariot, thus its inclusion here. Both the Chariots and Hydra operate much like characters in Warmaster and, when joined with a "standard" fighting unit, can cause so much extra damage (and possibly the reduction of enemy ranks) that they are well worth considering. Their small frontage relative to hitting potential makes them one of my top choices for force multiplication potential, as they can easily combo charge with almost any other unit and expect to gain their full offensive power. This small frontage is a huge benefit and not to be overlooked (although, I fear, it often is). Again, the player has to create the opportunity and not just charge blindly in, or they will be disappointed.

The issue here is just how effective is a Hydra compared to two chariots (similar points)? That is where the arguments of whether a Hydra is worth it or not come in.

Manticores -- The uses of these things is rather obvious, but it is worth mentioning anyway. A timely charge by one of these can easily throw a combat, and they and their riders are resilient enough to not give too much benefit in resolution to the enemy. Just like Chariots and Hydras, these guys also benefit from a small frontage, which substantially increases their ability to act as a force multiplier. I did not include Dragons in this because they are often so strong (ane expensive) that they go beyond being mere Force Multipliers and being full fledged combat units, but some may not agree with me here...

As for the Dragon I agree but only if there is a tooled up Lord on top, and often only if you can hit an enemy in the flank.

Assassins -- In a key combat with a key (or to your enemy apparently "unkey") unit, this guy can pop out and cause intense carnage, completely off-balancing your enemy's attack/plan, and both gaining kills and reducing enemy opportunities to kill. He is somewhat of a hit or miss choice due to his low survivability and high points cost, but for the gambling type this guy can really swing a combat, and thus a game. A hidden Assassin is a rather obvious Force Multiplier in my mind...

Agreed

Nobles -- Cheaply outfitted Nobles placed in units can add a nice boost to your kills in a combat and push the resolution in your favor. Standard stuff, but still worth mentioning. My favorite example is a Halberd armed Noble hanging in a unit of Executioners or a Dark Steed mounted Noble with a Lance in a COK unit (or even on his own).

Agreed

Dark Riders -- LOL, I think you could write a list detailing any capability in the Dark Elf army, and these guys would be on it. They are just so diverse and versatile, and my respect for them just continues to grow and grow over the years... Specifically regarding force multiplication, at a key moment these guys can charge (from very far away) and reduce enemy ranks, thus reducing enemy potential and possibly swinging a combat your way. Unlike the other options mentioned, however, I feel that great care should be taken in their use for this role. Oftentimes they can be a liability as much as an asset in this situation, and if your enemy kills enough he will have benefited from their charge more than you. These have the potential to be force multipliers, but I do not feel it is their primary role or greatest strength.

I am personally very fond of DR as FM's but I do understand your trepidation using them against certain armies/units. That is why I do not belive Harpies are a FM in any strech of the word. Just to fragile for not enough "significance".

Well, that is a basic summary of my thoughts on the topic. I'm sure there was some redundancy in points covered, but since I had taken the time to write it already I figured it was worth posting.

Redundancy is good! I know you read that thread!!

Cheers, and happy hunting! :)


I am really liking how this thread is developing. All the ideas throw around are making me rethink how I pick my units and the roles they are going to play in battle. Maybe that is post all in its own??
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Post by Underway »

I hypothesize (lovin' that high school science class!) that in a battle where all else is equal, the use of these FM units is the determining factor of victory.


This is what I was trying to show in the very first post. All else being equal between BCU the FM makes the difference. That is the nature of a FM.
It's pretty much a given, whether your facing a horde or an elite army, that you're going to have a main hand to hand combat somewhere on the battlefield. This battle will in all likelyhood be between two BCU units, and last more than one turn, and the position and timing of this battle will put one general in a position to utilize his FM units in the most advantageous manner.


True enough, but that is the nature of all battles. Good of you to tie it in together for the rest of us. :)
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Post by Langmann »

This thread is worthy of a sticky.
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Post by Nedorus »

First of all this thread is really worth the sticky. It helps me a lot in choosing units and designating roles for them (and still being flexible enough to change roles if situation demands).

A comment on DRs. I do agree that DR are one of the if not thee most typical FM unit we have. But I do want to stress the point of them being a liability:

In a recent game I charged a large unit (over 24) of skellies with my CoK. Because they were kind of stuck there and I wanted them elsewhere I flank-charged the skellies with my DRs. The first round it did for me what I had hoped for, winning the combat by 6 now and draining the enemy fast. Next turn my oponents Gen (some Vamp) charged the DR killing them all. I promptly lost the combat (by 3) and luckily passed my test, but it was close. What I did could easily have backfired, with a potential loss of my CoK as well.

What this also shows of course is the FMnishness (word? ;) ) of a noble. His Gen did that one charge and tipped the battle (and was free to walk away afterwards). I mean we're talking skellies vs. CoK here :shock:

On a second note I would really be interested in your opinion on all the magic items (banners, weapons, enchanted etc.) from a FM/SU perspective.

I, still being new current-ed rules (though not to WHFB having played 3rd ed before) still have great difficulties choosing the best items for my units/chars.

Tnx in advance
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Hmm... I'd actually think most, if not all, magic items are by definition Support... no?
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Post by Sentinel »

Maraith Tuerl wrote:Hmm... I'd actually think most, if not all, magic items are by definition Support... no?


Damn straight. I mean, I agree - by definitions.
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Post by Nedorus »

Well OK let me rephrase my question (maybe it doesn't make send afterall...):

Which items would support (there we go MIs seam to be support) which unit type FM or BCU best?

Let me give you an example:
A BCU of Spearmen carries a Warbanner which effectively adds to CR, a FM unit of DR carries a Banner of Murder (sorry I use a german army book ... is that what its called in english?) that give it some extra charging distance, making it even more mobile.

So would you, as the example suggests, rather support the BCU and FM units in what they're doing anyways (good CR and move fast respectively) or would you rather do it the otherway around to be more flexible?

What I'm effectivley asking is:

Which items would support which type of unit best?

Would certain units choose magic items at all (Support units)?

Am I making sense here?

Is this maybe another thread?

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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Ah, yes, that's actually a pretty good discussion. I'll have to think it over before rolling them out, but the first observation I have is that most banners (of all sorts) are best on BCU's, simply because of the added expense of the SB + magic banner makes me want to ensure that said unit is going to be able to win in a standup fight (hence, be a BCU). Add to that the fact that most units which can take magic banners are sorta 'designed' to be BCUs (corsairs, cok's witches, exies, BG)
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Post by Underway »

Magic items are often what turn a Noble/Highborn into an effective FM as opposed to just a SU. Giving the Highborn the blade of rhuin against HE is often a good way to ensure that the combat with those Dragon Princes is significantly in your favour. Magic items are usually priced based on the combat advantage they give, thus they are often priced high when the SU nature of magic begins to cross over into the FM area.

Banners on the other hand often give incremental help to combats. They allow a unit to gain an edge, not an overwellming victory over an opponent in most cases. This is obviously variable depending on the unit and the circumstances. The Hydra banner, Dread Banner and Banner of Nagaroth are highly priced because the cross over from SU to FM on certain units and in certain circumstances. The other banners in the list (including the War Banner) give a slight advantage over those who do not have that banner. Same for the HE Battle Banner, priced high because D6 extra combat res is not something to sneaze at.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Wow, finally read this whole thread through :shock:

It's a nother great tactical discussion but it still boils down to the same core issue in my mind, that of redundancy. The manner in which Underway has started this topic is very, very good. It offers yet another in depth analysis of the 'Art of Warhammer' without being particularly race specific but it still highlights the need for coherent army lists.

As was pointed out earlier, by their very nature ( ie point costs and unit size in particular ) Force Multipliers will not win games on their own but an army of Basic Combat Units could ( down to numbers and basic concepts of ranks/standard/outnumber etc ).

What you need to consider in conjunction with this topic is the following ( all dependent in part on personal taste and playing style ) :

1. For this particular list which category or categories do I want to fit my unit selection into?

2. How do I see the various units interacting? For example, if I use a unit of 16 Spears as my starting BCU what type of FM will it need to achieve the goal of being effective on the battlefield?

3. Are my FMs and my SUs capable of either acting on their own or making change to their primary roles once the game commences?

4. How will the loss of any particular BCU affect the SUs and FMs? Will they cease to be of any use or become particularly vulnerable?

5. How will the loss of an SU or an FM affect my battleplan?

Hence Redundancy. :D
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Post by Jeffleong13 »

Funny how it seems to always come back there ...

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Post by Morriston burns »

My FM & SUs have been separated from my BCUs. SNAFU.

I was taught that synchronisation was the key.
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Post by Quinn »

Good Discussion, but improper use of "Force Multiplier"

I hate to be a nitpicker here, but your definition of a force multiplier in the real world isn't very accurate. I spent 20+ years in the US Army, much of that time on various staffs and doctrine committees (the bane of the combat arms leader!, but required) and am intimately familiar with "force multipliers". An A10 itself is not a force multiplier, as a matter of fact, rarely is any major piece of equipment a "Force multiplier". What is, is the ability to accurately and precisely deliver that capability at the appropriate time through advanced technology. Whether this is through superior communications, intelligence, targeting, etc. usually varies. However, it usually incorporates all of the above and ties into other military doctrines.
How does this relate to Warhammer? First of all, these are technologically weak forces compared to today. Of course, it's a fantasy world that includes magic ( a form of indirect support perhaps) which is a potential " force multiplier". We also have the ability to see the whole battlefield and to instantaneously command our units. These are huge advantages.
I think the real "force multipliers" in WH are more along the lines of additional equipment selection and options (e.g. RXBs or Full Command, etc.) and the choice of spells. The use of units is pure tactics, not a force multiplier in the true sense. Of course, this is just my opinion and I think that topics like this are great things to discuss.

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