Inquisitor Black wrote:How is a High Sorceress on a manticore any more of a "rank breaker" than a beastmaster of manticore?
She's not. But she is both a rank breaker, AND a high sorceress, where the BM/Manti is just a rank breaker. Furthermore, said BM/manti takes 2 hero slots vice the 1 lord slot the HS/Manti takes. Hence my post being about her being a multirole unit.
Soulstealer doesn't count towards combat res, and WoP doesn't have to be cast from inside the combat.
SS does not, no, I don't recall claiming that it did. What I did claim was that the stolen wounds would make her more resilient to return attacks. Furthermore, it'll reduce the US of the target unit, and so a combined attack will be that much further along in CR than it otherwise would have been. As for WoP, it doesn't have to be cast from inside the combat, but it's another impact on how much the return attacks on the HS (if any) will affect the combat.
How can you say a HS in combat is more protected than a HS on a dark steed amonst several dark riders units or within a few inches of some CoK. Ridiculous. Also, a HS can be on foot, which in an infantry army is the best protection a caster can get.
What I said was that she was more protected against some threats. Those threats would be the ones who would want to charge her. She has very little to worry about most skirmishers, fast cav, or enemy flying units charging. The DR unit might have to worry, and it might not be convenient to flee (due to positioning, or just the tactical situation). She's more protected against those threats, and less protected against shooting threats. Fortunately, she's also fast enough, and agile enough, to hop between pieces of terrain, etc, and limit how many shots can be fired on her.
I don't think it takes an empire gunline to take out a HS on manticore. Infact, I think a unit of crossbowmen and a small unit of archers/huntsmen are more than enough to do so over a few turns.
Conceded. I specifically said in ONE turn, because I was responding to your comments about how quickly she'd be killed. My point is that against a heavy shooting threat, she only has to be in the open for one turn, because the next turn she'll be in combat, or behind the shooters.
Remember, if your ring of darkness is dispelled (which any sane player would do) you are left with a t3 HS, with a 5+ save. Then, if your opponent has anything capable of taking out the manticore, such as a cannon / bolt thrower, then you might as well start painting red streaks on the table around the sorceress before the battle starts.
I never said anything about the RoD, and in fact don't advocate its use because it's only in effect in close combat. Even w/o the 6's to hit requirement, *a* cannon or bolt thrower has very little chance of killing either the manticore or the HS in a single shot, even if it does hit (which also isnt' guaranteed). And, once again, part of your army's mission will be to silence that kind of threat quickly.
You are assuming that your opponent lets your little bound spell off, and secondly that she won't be charged before she gets into "the rear". To get into the rear, I would assume against a decent opponent who wouldn't expose it to you, that you would have to spend a turn positioning your HS behind his unit, ready for the charge.
I'm assuming nothing of the sort, my example did not include RoD stats. The worse thing two rank and file infantry or cavalry models can do is 8 attacks (two chosen knights of khorne). On odds, that will not kill either the HS or the Manticore in a single round of hth, even if they both survive the manticore's attacks (not that I'm advocating that charge solo... that'd have to be a combined charge, just like anything else in the DE army). As for the opponent 'letting' me get to his rear, that's not any harder than with any other flyer, but meanwhile, I'm killing stuff w/ spells while trying to maneuver. Additionally, a well positioned large target flyer can threaten the flank or rear of several units at once. So either my opponent turns them all to face the one threat (possibly opening up other arcs from my other units) or else they ignore it with some, at their risk.
Your opponent then has one full turn to get "any" unit into combat with her, and dispel your bound spell with his powerdice. Even with a 25 points detachment of 5 militia, he can direct 10 attacks hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s against your HS. If you flee, then there goes your "rank breaking" attack which you had planned, and jeapordized one turn of magic for.
Nonsense. First, lets assume that for some reason I put the HS in a place where it can be charged by butthead infantry. THen lets assume that I don't whack them with magic before they charge. Then lets assume they pass their terror test. Even then, they'll have at most 4 models in contact (I'm only on a 50mmx50mm base... the most that'll get into contact is 4, including corners, etc). 8 attacks on my HS is 2 wounding hits, whcih averages 1 wound. Then the Manticore gets its attacks back, and hits on 3, kills on 2... Look, I know you're disagreeing with me here, but at least use reasonable examples for your arguments, please.
About the HB, firstly he has a 2+ armour save and a WS good enough to have most units hitting on 5s, 4s at best. The GoP which you would replace allows him to not only act as the "rank breaker", but allowing him to take out heavy threats like Chaos Knights and Steam Tanks, which providing a very effective leadership 10 to where ever its needed.
Absolutely. No argument, he's better IN combat that the HS. No question. That's not the point, however.
Please don't compare these units as if the sorceress can pick up a GoP and 3 extra attacks whenever she wants to. I can also take 3 level 2 sorceresses if I want in a 2k points in addition to the HB on manticore. Your HS is not the only way of getting effective magic into the list.
I don't believe I ever said the HS/manti was as good as the HB in hth combat. What I did say was that she was a fighter/mage. She isn't as good as the HB in close combat, but she does provide quite a lot of utility in combat, AND can cast spells while not in combat, AND has the speed to get where you need her, AND has the LOS to target what you want. The comparison to the HB was specifically w/ regard to the risk you assume against a heavy shooting army, and nothing else. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. And yes, you absolutely could take 3xlvl 2 sorceresses, but that would then limit you in other ways. It's all about tradeoff. I'm not at all trying to argue that the HB/Manticore is a bad option... we all know it's a very good option for providing punch and armor piercing. What I'm saying is that it's not the *only* option, and that this combination is another option that works quite well.
No it's not mutually exclusive over the course of the game, but you are paying for the HS, its advantages of being on a manticore, and the manticore itself at full price, when each of them won't be used to their full potential. It's not like you are saying "I will only use my manticore's CC ability for 2 turns so I will pay half the points for him". It doesn't work like that.
How many turns do you expect a HB/manticore to be in close combat in a game? Are you telling me that any turn he's not in combat, the manticore is wasted points? For that matter, the HB would also be wasted points when not in combat, and not lending Ld, right? Those would be turns when the HS is worth *more* points, yes? Since she's still casting spells, possibly causing psych tests, etc... That's my point, I think. She's worth something less in turns she's in combat that the HB would be, but shes' worth significantly more in turns when she's out of combat than the HB would be. And for not many more VPs, if she's not the general.
Valuable support. What a joke. She costs something like 550 points, and you are giving her a support role. For 500 points I can get my uber Tzeentch lord, I can get my Vampire. More than 25% of a 2k army should be more than support, so you trying to escape her defficiency by simply labelling her "support" won't fool anybody, exept yourself. I can take Malekith against the High Elf magic army from hell and call him support if I want, simply because he can't take the heat that will be dished up
I know you are trying to make things work dude, but really, it's not on the cards
It's not a joke... Maybe I should have used the term of the day, "force multiplier" for her... since she can hold table quarters and affect more of the battle than a DR unit... But the fact is that if she is support, then so is that HB/Manticore. So is the Tzeentch lord, or that daemon prince. They are none of them tough enough to take on a ranked unit to the front. They are none of them able to survive concentrated shooting.
Finally, I'm not "trying" to make things work. I'm presenting an idea, that is an option on our list. I'm explaining why it's not the losing gambit that many think it is. Sure, it's not as straightforward to use as an uber character... but it still can be a devastating addition to our army. If you don't like it... don't use it. I'll admit it's not for everyone.