The High Sorceress on Manticore -- Flexibility Defined.

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Maraith tuerl
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The High Sorceress on Manticore -- Flexibility Defined.

Post by Maraith tuerl »

Greetings, fellow Druchii.

I come to you today to strike up a conversation about a much maligned, and little used option in our army list, that I've come to love. I hope my thoughts and experiences will give you all food for thought.

The option I refer to is the High Sorceress on a Manticore. Now, some of you have told me in the past that this is a dangerous option, an option that is frought with paradoxes. She's not a fighter, she needs to stay out of combat. She's too fragile. She's too many points in one model.

I hear these objections, and I'd like to address them. But first, I'm going to discuss her strengths.

The manticore provides her the following advantages:

1) Speed -- Faster than any other option, except for a Dark Pegasus. The Dark Peg lacks most of the other advantages.

2) Maneuverability -- More agile than any other option than the Dark Peg. iow, can hop over units/terrain, land in tight spots to maximize the advantage of her short-ranged spells.

3) Line of Sight -- The first thing the Dark Peg doesn't provide, is line of sight over enemy and friendly troops. While this cuts both ways (if you can see, you can be seen) I feel that it's firmly in the 'advantage' category, as it allows the HS to be safe from h2h reprisals while casting, and furthermore allows her to target the longer ranged spells (e.g. Black Horror) somewhere other than at the first target in her LOS path. This adds to her flexibility as well.

4) Protection -- Yes, the Manticore makes her a target, but it also provides a lot more protection from enemy fast movers (flyers, fast cav, scouts) than the Dark Peg does. The Dark pegasus, if the opponent fires on it or charges it, is an easy target to kill. It's got a lower toughness and fewer wounds. Furthermore, it doesn't cause terror (more later). There are many units that won't even attempt to take out the HS on Manticore in h2h, because it's simply not feasible for them.

5) Flexibility -- If you mount the HS on a manticore, you have to stop thinking of her as a mage who wants to avoid combat at all costs, and start thinking of her as a fighter-mage. The model as a whole is not as good in combat as a Highborn, or even a BM on manticore. But it is still able to throw 4 S5 (WS5, I5) attacks in the mix, and more importantly, it's over the 'magic' US of 5, so will break ranks and provide flank/rear bonuses. In many ways, she's a better flanker at this point than a unit of Dark Riders, and she's also more mobile in many ways, and can pack more firepower. She costs a lot (520 pts with my latest list, and that's w/ only 75 pts of magic items), but she fills a number of roles, and unless you roll a miscast, she's useful in every turn of the game. I can't say the same for a pure fighter on a manticore, as they are only truly useful when they are in combat.

6) Terror -- I list this one last. While it is an advantage, and a big one against some armies, the easy counter most folks have is to just put her on a Dark Peg w/ Deathmask if you want the same effect. That's true, to an extent. The main reason I don't like that combo is that you're burning half your magic pool to get it, and you're forgoeing the ward save. In my combo, you essentially get a 'free' deathmask as part of the manticore upgrade cost.

The way I equip her, I have a CoBI, ToF, and a dispel scroll. I have tried her with 2x power stones instead of the d-scroll, and also w/ 2xdscrolls, but I settled on the above mainly because I felt it complimented the rest of my army better. The CoBI provides the best protection you can give her, and also ensures that those sneaky High Elf magi won't prevent her from being effective via FiF or DM. The Tome is essential for her, ime, because you really want her to have the wide range of spells. Having 5 of 6 spells is essential for you to plan how you're going to use her, and which lore you're going to pick. If I take Dark, for example, I *know* she'll get either Dominion or Word of Pain (or both). I *know* she'll get Soulstealer or Black Horror (or both).

Steal Soul really helps her out, in my experience, as it makes her significantly less fragile after you've gotten it off successfully. And with the manticore, she has the speed and maneuverability to get where you need her to cast it.

The last recommendation, if you're going to field it, I don't actually follow myself in my Karond Kar list. If possible, from your list restrictions, make a Noble the General. This allows you to keep that Ld near the rest of your troops, and puts a couple less eggs in the HS basket. I don't follow my own advice in the KK list because I wanted two manticores for the theme, and thus lost a hero slot that would otherwise have gone to a Noble.

I'll let everyone read and digest all that, and if there are comments or questions, I'll go into more detail on how I use her and what my experiences have been.
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Post by Underway »

I am designing a new army around this very thing, for the SoC. I agree with the majority of your points (hell I agree with all of them!). The only thing I would ask you is do you find her a crazy points sink? I mean with the HS (500pts) then a back up sorceress (170pts) and two more nobles (130, 130) thats about 900 pts in characters that could be used towards units. Seems like you may hamstring your army with so few points left for units.
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Post by Drakken »

Got a couple of Questions for you Maraith:

1. Do you use any other Large Targets in your Army to provide something of a screen?
2. You use mostly Dark Lore I take, banking on the much wider range of spells?
3. Has it actually been worth the points in your mind? (I'd also consider this ages ago, but been talked out of it by multiple people).
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Post by Ivorydragon »

Would you perhaps consider the Ring of Darkness as a means of protecting the sorceress? Another question: is a mage on a large monster able to cast magic missile at other units while in combat? Does the mage have line of sight to units outside of combat because she is on a large target?
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Post by Viper »

With the few number of high strength units in the dark elf army, you will want to get into close combat with your manticore. I am not sure If I would want to exspose my High sorceress to that kind of exsposure. To not use this unit for close combat might be folly. I have no experience with the manticore seeing as mine is still in it's box, waiting to be assembled and painted (perhaps a project for the holidays) , but you will need the high strength when dealing with high toughness and/or high armor save targets.
And there is the "too many eggs in one basket argument" although this can be put to your advantage by baiting his units to chase after it while your real center of gravity does the dirty work. If used this way, I would get items that give you a good ward save. Too bad she can't wear armor, because she will draw allot of fire. And it will be hard to hide from artillery and magic. Staying out of range would also make it a waste of points, since her spells are so short ranged.

I myself, have being toying with the idea of putting a sorceress in a unit of Dark riders on a dark steed and equiped with life stealer. This unit of Dark riders will avoid charging unless the odds are in my favor. It will harrass and shoot the enemy. Hopfully bringing it close enough to cast those close range spells. The other riders will also provide a shield against artillery and missle fire.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Ah, I have long awaited your thoughts on this Maraith. Excellent post. Could you please keep a running history of you your army is doing with this concept with details of who you fight, what works, what doesn't, etc.

I am very curious about this concept and I want more! :D
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

No prob., Grogs, I am happy to keep a tally. So, to sum up, the main arguments against the HS on manticore are:

1) High points cost
2) Weak character on a beast that wants to fight cc

1) The points cost is a definite drawback, however, I feel in this case you really do get what you pay for. As I mentioned in the above posts, when you have a highborn on Manticore, it's a safe bet that he'll be in combat for 3-4 turns in the game, tops, there will likely be another 2-3 turns when he's not in combat, but instead just maneuvering. That's where the HS makes her money. Turns when she's not in combat, she's blasting folks with spells, notably the biggies like Black Horror, Steal Soul, and Dominion. Turns when she is in combat, she can STILL cast Steal Soul (probably on the engaged unit), Arnie's horror (on that unit that's trying to move to support), Dominion (again, stop that supporting unit from getting the charge), or Word of Pain (this is a great one on the unit she's fighting, makes it that much harder for them to hit her).

2) Again, it's imperative if you take this combo character, to realize that you're not fielding a lvl 4 sorceress. 520-540 pts is WAY too much to spend on a lvl 4 sorceress. What you're fielding is a lvl 4 fighter/mage that flies, causes terror, and breaks ranks. She *does* want to get into combat, when the time is right. Until the time is right, she can wreak all kinds of havoc just flying around, threatening flanks/rears, casting spells. After the time is right, and she charges (with support), she can still cast many of her spells while in combat, and those spells make it that much more likely that she'll be successful *in* combat.

Mounted on the manticore, she's not nearly as fragile as some folks think. First off, she's got a 5+ ward. Not great, but that still will discount 1/3 of the hits. Second, she should have (before you charge) gained extra wounds w/ Steal Soul or the Death magic equivilant. Third, you'll be supporting her charge with other folks, and of course with Doom and Darkness or Word of Pain.

As for the other questions:

@Underway: The list I'm running is character heavy. I have over 900 pts spent in characters, it's true, but two of them are on manticores. I think you could get away with fewer points spent (bare minimum, imo, would be the HS, a lvl 2, and just one noble, who's the general), depending on the list.

@Drakken: Yes, my list (posted on the Army list board, and Batreps) has 4 large targets; two manticores and two Hydrae. I have taken Dark for the lvl 4 exclusively so far, for the reasons you cite, although I'm thinking that against certain opponents (notably my cav-heavy chaos friend) Death might work better. Finally, it's absolutely been worth the points. It's like most Dark Elf stuff in that you have to be smart about where you put her and how you use her, but she's devastating if used with half a brain.

@ID: I might consider Ring of Darkness, although tbh, I prefer the kit I've got her with now (CoBI, ToF, Dispel). I have my lvl 2 carrying the Seal and Cloak, so if I want a scroll or two, the HS has to carry it. The first game I tried with her, I had her with two powerstones, and that was pretty nasty (made a VERY effective turn of magic after my opponent's scrolls were gone). Your other quesiton is a bit tricky. She *does* have LOS out of the combat being on a large target, but she *cannot* cast magic missiles while in h2h, because the MM rule specifically says 'not while in combat' in addition to the normal LOS restrictions. So while you can cast other LOS requiring spells (Arnizipal's BH), you cannot cast magic missiles (doombolt, chillwind).

@viper: I have both. The HS on manticore AND a lvl 2 on dark steed w/ the Dark riders (usually not in them, but near them). The HS on manticore is a risk, but a manageable one imo. She's mobile enough to avoid direct confrontation with stuff she can't handle (and meanwhile harry the units with her spells), but nasty enough that you dont' have to fear getting her into close combat with most targets, especially if you've already gotten off a Steal Soul or two.
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Post by Alfmep »

I have many times been very tempted to mount my HS on a Manicore, and after reading your thoughts I will definitely give it a try :D
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Post by The word of pain »

I did try it a few times, but found she tended to die to 'Good' oppo's. I would be more than happy to do it with a 4+ ward, but not the 5+ ward..... maybe I'll try again, because like you I looked for a 2 Hydra (I love em!) 2 Manticore (Them too) list and always felt the Beastmaster/High Sorceress too weak and easy to kill. Maybe I'll try it tomorrow night and see how it goes!
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

@alfmep> 2150, 2250, and 2450 are the point levels I've tried this list.

@WoP> If you try it, be sure to post results. Keep her out of Los on deployment, then make the effort turn 1 to whack war machines and so on. Keep her facing stuff she can handle until you have her wound count up. Then use her to support your BCU's w/ flank charges and rear charges.
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Post by Jhaelrnya »

Wow. That sounds like fun! 4 Large targets, terror causers...and a lvl 4 mage/fighter. I'd love to try that. Only problem is I play aginst Dwarfs and Khorne more often than not. Have you had any problems with other magic heavy armies? Like VC? Or armies that have huge dispell pools (like Dwarfs and Khorne)?
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Haven't tried Dwarfs or Khorne yet, I have (hopefully) my first VC battle this Friday. I'll let you know...

Generally, though, I'm not terribly scared of Khorne armies. I have those 4 terror causers, and 2 fear causing chariots. Of course, they start off immune to my psych, BUT, the rest of my army is Dark Riders and Harpies... so I can pretty much lead his frenzied troops around by the nose and hammer the rest of his army. Any magic that gets through is a bonus. And actually, I'd probably look to the lower powered spells against him, so that I get more successful castings with fewer dice, and then pump a lot of dice into a more powerful spell later. That way, even with a bucket of dispel dice, *something* is likely to get through.

Dwarfs... we'll see. I have faced dwarf players in the past with other armies. I think the key will be whether he goes war machine heavy, or if he goes for an 'assault' dwarf army (I've seen both around here). The war machine army would actually be a bit easier to deal with, I think, as I have enough fast stuff that I can limit how many shots he gets off. The thing that'll really help me there is the psychology. Most of his units will be high Ld, but not immune. So if I plan my charges right (and with my move advantage, that shouldn't be a problem), I should be able to rack up enough US in one place for the autobreak.
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Post by Lud von pipper »

Unfortunately spending more then 450pts for a single model is not feasible if you are building a turnament army :(

Also a single cannon shot can take out the HS or the Maticore...
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

A single cannon shot can take out a HB on manticore too, which is why I say you shouldn't let her be seen.

As for the tournament thing, I think it's perfectly feasible, you just have to be prepared to take the comp hit, IF the tournament uses comp scores (which many don't)
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Post by Tu'shan »

I think its a great idea if your just having a one-off game at a local club or with a friend.......... wouldn't recomend it for a tornament though........ never rely on magic above all else.... if you do it can only fail you............ Hate to be pesamistic so to end on a high...... I think that it would be great in a 3000pt list coz theres so much else to shoot at if you keep it reasonable covered then it shouldn't die....................
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Tu'Shan> You really think that 6 levels of magic and no bound spells is relying on magic above all else? I actually think the HS on manticore is anything but... it makes her so that she can be impactful on the game even without magic (via breaking ranks and causing terror). In short, it seems quite the opposite from relying on magic above all else. Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Post by Alfmep »

Give her the Lifetaker and she will be one of the most useful units in the game!

1. Movement phase: Place her within 6" of enemy units but out LOS, place her in position to charge, place her in a good position for spell casting, place her in LOS of enemy characters.

2. Magic phase: Quite obvious why shes useful here :D

3. Shooting phase: Shoot enemy characters or anything else within LOS.

4. Close combat phase: The Manticore will do some real damage here, remember, on the Manticore, she _is_ a fighter! She will take away the enemy's rank bonus if fighting from the flank/rear.

5. Start of enemy turn: All enemy units within 6" of her takes a panic test.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

I'd like to combine these two threads. Is there any consensus as to which thread should be the parent?
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Post by Underway »

Ummm, make the other one the parent as MT posted that his thread was just below, the other one.
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Post by Under-dog »

Alfmap,
The problem there still is that while flexible she is wasting some of hers or the manticores abilities at some point. Magic missle spells and shooting cant be done in hth. So if she enters combat these skills and related points are negated or at least hampered. If you hang back to shoot and get full casting the manticores hth prowess is wasted. Youll be spending around 500 pts or so to get a top of the line scorceress who wont be using her power dice and or a monster that is sitting there watching the battle unfold
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Post by Lordfoulbane »

I'm sorry ... two T3 wounds for more than 500pts is absolutely out of the question for a non-expert such as myself - my entire character allocation doesn't go above 500 pts. In Italy (I'm not Italian but I live here atm) shooty armies are way popular ... as are the cannonades... and a HS on the manticore the best present I could ever hand an opponent.
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Post by Drakken »

LordFoulbane. theres 2 things with your statement:

1. Its a High Sorceress, meaning 3, possilbe as much as 6 wounds.
2. One of the points is blocking LOS duirng deployment, and possilbe screening somewhat with another Large Target (Hydra, 2nd Manticore)
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Post by Alfmep »

Under-Dog wrote:Alfmap,
The problem there still is that while flexible she is wasting some of hers or the manticores abilities at some point. Magic missle spells and shooting cant be done in hth. So if she enters combat these skills and related points are negated or at least hampered. If you hang back to shoot and get full casting the manticores hth prowess is wasted. Youll be spending around 500 pts or so to get a top of the line scorceress who wont be using her power dice and or a monster that is sitting there watching the battle unfold


Well, you can't have everything in one model.
Due to the terror the Manticore is useful even if it isn't in close combat.
If charging with the HS/Manticore you will see to it that you charge the enemy in the flank/rear, and preferably into an enemy already in close combat. With the flying ability it won't be very difficult. The intention is not to stay in cc, but to make the enemy break. If you make a misstake an are being charged, the enemy must first succeed a terror test, and if it does, it's facing a Manticore :twisted:
Well, I haven't yet tested a HS on a Manticore, so I'm just speculating here. But in my next 3000 point game I will give it a try :)
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Post by Ixombie »

Under-Dog wrote:Alfmap,
The problem there still is that while flexible she is wasting some of hers or the manticores abilities at some point. Magic missle spells and shooting cant be done in hth. So if she enters combat these skills and related points are negated or at least hampered. If you hang back to shoot and get full casting the manticores hth prowess is wasted. Youll be spending around 500 pts or so to get a top of the line scorceress who wont be using her power dice and or a monster that is sitting there watching the battle unfold


Mariath has already mentioned that a HB on manticore can be even MORE wasteful than this, simply because he must spend 2-3 turns out of every battle on manuevering. He wastes up to half of each game doing absolutely nothing for you (except maybe forcing terror checks) while the HS should be able to use some spell on every turn.
You can't shoot magic missiles in CC, but there are only two MMs in the list- every single other one can be cast on the unit you're fighting, or any other nearby unit because of the manticore's LoS. So while not in CC you are indeed wasting the manticore's CC prowess, but you're still doing something rather than nothing thanks to the HS's spells. And while you're in CC, you waste nothing because you can both fight and cast magic. Sure, no magic missiles, but those aren't even close to the best spells that Dark can get.
So basically, with the MantySorc turns that were normally wasted are now productive, and turns that were normally productive have the potential to be even moreso.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:I'd like to combine these two threads. Is there any consensus as to which thread should be the parent?


well, obviously I'd like my thread to be parent. :) But... whatever. The discussion is the important part, not who's on title as the thread owner.
Last edited by Maraith tuerl on Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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