The High Sorceress on Manticore -- Flexibility Defined.

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Andyp
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Post by Andyp »

Some questions for those advocating the "bury her in combat to avoid missiles" tactic.

What do you do when your ooponents flees his/her 200 point unit from your charge, stranding your fragile 550 point unit in the middle of the battlefield?

When you charge the flank of a fully ranked up unit, you'll get +1 for flank attack and about 2 wounds in total, total 3 points of combat res. Do you just hope that the enemy troops don't wound you back (or have the war banner). If they so much as scartch you, you've lost on the musician. How many break tests do you expect to pass?

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Post by Maraith tuerl »

AndyP> Couple answers for you.

Question 1: You plan your charges to make sure she's not stranded in the middle of the battlefield if your opponent flees, and if possible, so that you can redirect (yes, you can only redirect if you couldn't charge to begin with. If one unit is too close tot he other for you to fit between, though, then that would not have been an eligible target). If they flee with both, whoo-hoo, you've got two fleeing units. The key, though, is to recognize where you'll be if they flee, and make sure it's a place you want to be. (or rather, isn't a place you don't want to be)

Question 2: Well, I don't advocate an unsupported charge with any lone character (certain exceptions, e.g. a bloodthirster or chaos lord on a dragon, do exist). Even to the flank, I don't advocate it. Certainly not against a fully ranked unit that hasn't been attritted in any way yet. But, if you find it necessary to do so, then you position her in contact with just the 1-2 guys on the corner, and be ready to charge in with something else the next turn if they don't break. If you do 2 wounds and are only in contact with 2 guys, then there's no hope involved, they won't scratch you. Meanwhile, go in to the rear, and the odds change a lot. go in against a unit that's been attritted, and the odds change a lot.
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Post by Drakken »

To your comment early Maraith, I had other places for Dispel Scrolls, and consider a bigger blade. But I haven't really been overly impressed with the value=expense comparision of most Magic weapons we have. Thus for me, its was likely Sword of Might or Battle. Though thinking about it, the Hydra blades extra attacks may be a better investment. I'll play around a little, see what comes up.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Drakken> Cool. And generally, I agree that our blades aren't a great investment. Likewise, I generaly have consdiered a magical weapon on a 1A model to be a waste. But... I'm keeping an open mind. :) Let us know how it goes.
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Post by Andyp »

Maraith Tuerl wrote: But, if you find it necessary to do so, then you position her in contact with just the 1-2 guys on the corner, and be ready to charge in with something else the next turn if they don't break.



yeooowtch, clipping (even if it's not full clipping).

I'd be prepared for some pretty indignant remarks about using this tactic if I were you. Personally I stay out of the whole debate, but a lot of people wouldn't like this one bit.

As for the 'only commiting to a combat if it's safe' theory, I think you may well find you spend the whole game waiting for that charge to appear if your opponent knows what they are doing. If you've got 550 points waiting behind a bush until it's safe, then the opponent essentially has an extra 500 points to play with until it is safe. Your other units may not even make it.

Of course I have never tried this theory, so I could well be wrong.

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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

AndyP wrote:
Maraith Tuerl wrote: But, if you find it necessary to do so, then you position her in contact with just the 1-2 guys on the corner, and be ready to charge in with something else the next turn if they don't break.



yeooowtch, clipping (even if it's not full clipping).

I'd be prepared for some pretty indignant remarks about using this tactic if I were you. Personally I stay out of the whole debate, but a lot of people wouldn't like this one bit.


I've never understood why "clipping" with characters is frowned upon so much. With units, chariots, etc. I understand, but not with characters. Could you please explain.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Clipping> The only place I've ever heard it talked about/complained about is online. I've never, ever, played against anyone who didn't do it, and agree to doing it.

Committing to combat> Never said only if it's safe. I said plan ahead. There are times you have to take risks, but you have to be prepared for the outcome of those risks either way. And... again... that's 520 pts (in my case) that's sitting out of combat, that's STILL firing off 4-5 spells a turn, possibly causing multiple panic checks, compared to ~420 pts that would be sitting out in the same circumstnaces, not firing spells off, and not causing any panic cheks.(HB/manti)
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Post by Drakken »

contact with just the 1-2 guys on the corner


Actually, I don't find that nearly that bad of a clipping case at all. The main rulebooks solution about ensuring maximazation of your attacks doesn't even stop you from doing it, your whole unit can attack. Only by beginners or in movement limited situations do I not see ridden monsters only contact 1-3 models (less on 25 mm. bases).
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Post by Andyp »

Nope, uh huh, no way. I'm not getting into a debate on clipping. I knew I shouldn't have mentioned it.

As far as the HS on manticore goes, I don't think I'd ever field one unless I knew what I was facing and what the likely terrain would be - there's just too much chance of getting a bad match up. I think a canny opponent would easily be able to neuter your flyin-lion-wizard lady too often.

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Post by Maraith tuerl »

AndyP> Okay, my last question for you is, would you say the same thing about a HB on manticore? If not, why do you think it would be less likely to be neutered by a canny opponent?
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Post by Andyp »

To some extent the highborn on manticore suffers some of the same drawbacks..however.

- With a decent armour save, he is effectively immune to a lot of small-arms fire - something which really worries the HS. Imagine a unit of pistolliers marching 16" then shooting on 3's to hit your manticore. I wouldn't want to be the high sorceror riding that beast.

- The highborn on manticore can confidently go into the flank of a ranked up unit alone and have a decent chace of actually pulling off a 2-3 point win. Obviously not against all types of unit. He also has little to worry about from ordinary trooper attacks back. Plus, just in case something does go wrong he has an important extra point of leadership.

- If I choose to flee with my highborn, I don't have to worry about also putting my biggest magical defender out of the game for a magic phase.

- A highborn on manticore can effectively ignore the risks of being charged by enemy auxiliary units (ie fast cav, skirmishers) as he'll take them on and win. A high sorceress is in big trouble if she gets charged by anything. You don't want to spend your whole game running away from furies.


I've just read through my post and I have to say I'm shocked at my bad grammar, but I'm too lazy to correct it. My appologies.

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Post by Maraith tuerl »

AndyP wrote:To some extent the highborn on manticore suffers some of the same drawbacks..however.

- With a decent armour save, he is effectively immune to a lot of small-arms fire - something which really worries the HS. Imagine a unit of pistolliers marching 16" then shooting on 3's to hit your manticore. I wouldn't want to be the high sorceror riding that beast.


Most units of fast cav are 5-6 strong, and Pistoliers, I'd expect a champion w/ repeater pistol. So, that's an average of 7-8 shots, hitting on 3's. Call it 8. On average, that's 5 hits, 1-2 on the HS, average of 1 wound, which has a chance to be saved on the ward still. I'm not really scared. And if they're not in LOS to be charged w/ the HS or one of the other units in the army, then I can still either get away from those guys, or skootch a bit closer and nuke them with magic & terror (likely regaining my lost wound in the process).

- The highborn on manticore can confidently go into the flank of a ranked up unit alone and have a decent chace of actually pulling off a 2-3 point win. Obviously not against all types of unit. He also has little to worry about from ordinary trooper attacks back. Plus, just in case something does go wrong he has an important extra point of leadership.


Absolutely true, and i've never argued that he's not better in close combat. However, I would still try and support his charge against most fully ranked opponents, and that's just more true for the HS. And again, it's worth mentioning that if a charge does not present itself, or if I have to wait for support for any reason, I can still target my spells a lot more freely than if I were not mounted on a HS.

- If I choose to flee with my highborn, I don't have to worry about also putting my biggest magical defender out of the game for a magic phase.


That's a good point, and one I hadn't thought of. I tend to avoid putting my HS in a place where she's a target to be charged by something that I'd want to flee from.

- A highborn on manticore can effectively ignore the risks of being charged by enemy auxiliary units (ie fast cav, skirmishers) as he'll take them on and win. A high sorceress is in big trouble if she gets charged by anything. You don't want to spend your whole game running away from furies.


I would never run from Furies. I can't think of any auxiliary unit that I'd really worry too much about. Furies, if they charge, have 4 attacks on me (they're on 25mm bases). Let's assume they target the HS, they're only hitting with 2 hits, wounding w/ ~1, which again, I might save. The Manticore is more than capable of doing 1 wound or more to them in return. If I do 2, there's a solid chance of them 'poof'ing. This, however, is a good argument for finding points to give the Hydra sword to the HS, as it'd take even less chance out of her winning against the light stuff...

I've just read through my post and I have to say I'm shocked at my bad grammar, but I'm too lazy to correct it. My appologies.


:lol: ... no worries, we've all been there.
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Post by Andyp »

Maraith,

Whilst your arguments about the HS's survivability hold true for average rolling, they don't cover the chance that the enemy will roll well. If I were playing against a HS on manticore, I'd be happy to take that chance with the pistolliers. Most auxilliary units don't even cost as much as pistolliers. The chances may be slim, but I don't mind throwing cheap units at her until she dies.


I can't think of any auxiliary unit that I'd really worry too much about.



lets see (all in my opinion of what constitutes a significant and likely threat):

- Skirmishing archers/huntsmen
- Pistolliers
- Dark Riders
- Harpies
- Shades
- DoW duellists with pistols
- Dwarf Gyrocopter
- Shadow Warriors
- Skinks/Cameleon skinks
- Terrodons
- Marauder Horsemen
- Furies
- Screamers
- Flamers
- Night Runners
- Tunnel Teams
- Rat Swarms
- Tomb Swarms
- Anything rising out of the ground with "banner of hidden dead"
- Tomb Scorpions
- Carrion
- Batswarns
- Ghouls
- Any VC unit raised/vanhels'd
- Fell Bats
- Banshees
- WE scouts/waywatchers
- Those ulric stubborn skirmisher dudes


Everything mentioned above can either move then shoot you, or has a 360 degree charge or other type of special movement. Everything mentioned above is also very cheap compared to the HS.

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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

AndyP wrote:Whilst your arguments about the HS's survivability hold true for average rolling, they don't cover the chance that the enemy will roll well.


What does cover this situation? Nothing as far as I know...
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Post by Drakken »

Actually, most everything on that is in the same boat, there are very few things that will on average do enough wounds to kill her in that light catergory. And in-return, the Manticore should do more than enough wounds to win or draw Combat vs. most of that. It also backs up the arguement of adding a magic weapon to help the HS in combat, since most of that will be 4s + 4s for her to wound.

And I think Grog answered your early statement really well, I know of nothing that cover the possiblity of your enemy rolling spectaculer and you rolling miserably.
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Post by Andyp »

I'm not talking about the enemy rolling spectacularly, just slightly better than average. Even just causing one wound is well worth it for a 40-point unit of ghouls. Remember the units I listed above are only minor support units - all (bar the gyrocopter) available for less than 100 points.

Try it out by rolling a few dice (that's what I do). Try 4 ghouls attacking her - here are my results as they happen (number of wounds on the HS):

2, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 0, 2, 2, 2, 1, 3

Even if my ghouls get wiped out, I'd be more than happy to take that chance. Try out the other things from the list.

You can't rely on casting soul stealer to stay alive by topping up your wounds, yoyur opponent will just be sure he dispels that if he's got a chance of killing your sorceress.

Obviously you guys disagree. I don't know, maybe you are all just luckier than me - I don't like taking such big chances though.

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Post by Drakken »

Ghouls, Tomb Scorpions, Gutter Runners, and Skinks are a little different story, since there more likely to generate Wounds from Posion. Against those armies, you'll have to a little more careful as poison removes another layer of die screening, thus allowing a better chance. And half of those units still have to pass Terror tests to attack, both on rather average LD.

But without poison, that normal 2 A unit will generate 2 Wounds. You should save 1 of them (.6 actually). And if your oppenents saving Dispel Die for Soul-Stealer, then you have a better chance of Getting WoP or Domion off to ensure your not charged or it doesn't hurt (Dominion negating, WoP reduces it too 1.32 W, with a .43 Save chance). Thats the staple rule of magic (to me at least), if your going to save die everytime to stop 1 spell, I'm going to run rampet with all the other spells as you save die for the last spell I cast. But as you've stated, you don't feel its worth. I respect your opinion, and someday hope we here can change it by proving this works in the only way that matters, winning games while having fun.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Well, fellas, thanks for answering Andy's comments, I would've said the same if I'd gotten on earlier. :) . And Drakken, it's funny you should bring up the magic weapon thing again; I sent a pm to (not sure... AndyP or Inq B) saying the same thing, and I'm now trying to decide if it's worth 5 RXBs and a Scroll to give her the Hydra blade, or if the Sword of Battle's enough of an 'edge' at the cost of one or the other.
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Post by Drakken »

I'm not sure really. The more I was thinking about it, the more I was worried the .5 Average wounds the SoB does is enough. The problem is digging 25 more points out of a list I've already stretched my balance thin on (in my opinion at least). That really tips the HS into expensive as sin range, but might be necessary. I'll see, I'm hoping to get a few more games in with my DE over the next few months as I hammer them out for GT Season next year, and that will hopefully let me more fully decide, since thats about the only way to test things that solid.
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Post by Flit »

Morning Guys, always nice to come back to this thread. Well I played with the HS on Manticore last night, and the lady on the beast kicked @$$! against the ratmen. She totally got her points back and more, I broke up the hordes line very well with her and left him doing not much in the magic phase as he was worried about the manticore going between units. To sum up I find that the manticore is very useful against horde armies as you generate quite a lot of terror tests across the board, I made his grey seer unit run, along with his gutter runners and a big clan rat unit leaving the Warpfire thrower to get shot at by my RxBow men. To go with the magic item list, I think I would have to use this combination, Tome of Furion, Crown of Black Iron, Hydra Blade. I feel the ring of darkness is not worth in this combination as with the Manticore support and potential 6 wounds and WS of 1 you don't need the protection that much. She can fight you know! But the most important thing to take with her for me is the scroll caddy, A level one wizard with two scrolls, using Shadow magic as then she has three uses. One to provide magic defence support with her one dispel dice and the two scrolls, obvious choice. Two: By taking the steed of shadows if your Manticore dies, then you can whisk your High Sorceress to safety. Three:- Didn't think of this until last night and my opponent the nice chap that his is, pointed out that by using the Steed of Shadows she could finish off fleeing units caused by combat or by the terror causing manticore by using her movement and the spell to give her a potential 30" charge including movement and casting value and to be cast on a 3+. By using this I finished off his Grey seer as he left the comfort of this unit, I landed the manticore near enough to him, he fled sorceress walks up three spells later his offensive magic is nullified and my scroll caddy has earned 300+ Vp's
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Flit> Nice... how'd'ya figure a potential 6 wounds in addition to the manticore, though? Hydra blade is d3 extra attacks, right? So, that should be a potential of 4 wounds in addition to the manticore.

Anyway, good comments, fellas, keep 'em coming. For my list, I don't want to relegate the lvl 2 sorc to a scroll caddy, I feel the extra casting and extra dispel dice are worth it, and I can't get another lvl 1 to be scroll caddy... so for me the choice is 1 scroll on the HS, or else the sword of battle, OR drop RXBs from a unit of DR and get both (making the HS 25 pts more expensive). The other option is to go w/ no dscrolls (which I'm considering risking, with 6 dispel dice), *and* drop the RXBs, and get the hydra blade. Haven't decided yet, but I'm starting to think the average of 2 extra attacks is worth it.
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Post by Flit »

Hiya Mt, I think we both made a mistake on the last post. I should have wrote she has a potential 6 wounds when getting into combat due to soul stealer, not to cause a potential 6 wounds with the manticore assistance sorry. But have my last game of the year on Friday due to Christmas and will see how she fairs against the Empire Cannon Line.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

ah, yeah, misunderstood your point. but, with the Hydra blade, she can potentially do 4 wounds in addition to the manticore's 4.
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Post by Iron_panther »

What about enemy characters riding monsters of their own backed up by scroll caddies? If they don't becomes dominated or shot to pieces they will rip your expensive high sorceress to shreds, or at least force her to flee, which renders her unusable.
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Post by Tso »

Just a quick comment on people plannign to give their sorc a weopon. I say, lifetaker maybe but anything else I believe a power stone will be more worth it.
If you are resolved to give a weopon make it one with + attacks as she only has one and so improving that attack (eg +1 strength) isnt worth it. And remember those weopons are priced for a str 4 character, they are less worth it on a str 3 one
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