The High Sorceress on Manticore -- Flexibility Defined.

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Post by Icon hack »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:I'd like to combine these two threads. Is there any consensus as to which thread should be the parent?



I was thinking likewise. I guess the most fair way to do it is to make the thread that was started first the parent thread.

Also MT, if you really want some credit (which you deserve), maybe you could write up a nice article for submission to the quarterly?
Last edited by Icon hack on Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Under-Dog wrote:Alfmap,
The problem there still is that while flexible she is wasting some of hers or the manticores abilities at some point. Magic missle spells and shooting cant be done in hth. So if she enters combat these skills and related points are negated or at least hampered. If you hang back to shoot and get full casting the manticores hth prowess is wasted. Youll be spending around 500 pts or so to get a top of the line scorceress who wont be using her power dice and or a monster that is sitting there watching the battle unfold


That's partially true, but not any moreso than for a Highborn who will spend 2-3 turns (or more) of the game not in combat, and therefore just 'watching' the battle. Which is not the case for the HS. Meanwhile there are some spells the HS can cast while in combat, and likewise she can still add power/dispel dice for the other sorcs.
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Post by Ixombie »

I'd like to combine these two threads. Is there any consensus as to which thread should be the parent?


I also think they should be combined, and I think my title is *much* more dramatic :P

But how's this sound Grog? We solve this the warhammer way, on a d6! I call 4+ in my favor, on 1-3, Maraith's gets to be the parent. Good? (you roll of course)
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Post by Inquisitor black »

I just rolled and I got a 1. Oh the irony.
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Post by Flit »

MT, I agree regarding the Difference between the HB & HS, as she has a use throughout most of the turn sequences, apart from the HB who should be in combat for I would say at least 4 Turns a game. I think that she does need protection in the form of a scroll caddy with the LoS as I stated in my post on Izombie's post then at least you either take SoS as the spell unless you roll Pelts of Midnight which maybe of use to her against most of the shooty armies. Nice thread by both of you guys, enjoying the comments from both sides of the board
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Post by Lordfoulbane »

Drakken wrote: Its a High Sorceress, meaning 3, possilbe as much as 6 wounds.

Uh, ok I thought she had two wounds - goes to show how often I use a HS... one very important point thing with soul stealer, once she loses her original number of wounds she still gives up her 300+ VPs at the end of the game ... sure its very handy that she sticks out the battle with those extra wounds but that is alot of points when its tallying time.
If I'm not mistaken (and I could well be) rear ranks of missile troops can shoot at her as well.
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Post by Flit »

Regarding Soulstealer, Lord. You are wrong fortunately as she if she gains 3 wounds and loses only three to give her 3 at the end of the game. Then she classes as full VP's I think. As I think it's steal soul from LoD that you count Full VP's if she goes to 0 at the end of the game after you count how many wounds she has lost. I think that all makes sense?.... :?:
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Icon> Thanks for the suggestion, I just might do that.

Flit> I believe you're right, I dont' have my book here, but I don't recall any language about what happens when you lose 'original' wounds if you still have 'stolen' wounds left.
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Post by Z-man the hunter »

As I think it's steal soul from LoD that you count Full VP's if she goes to 0 at the end of the game after you count how many wounds she has lost.


yes that is true but it doesn't apply to soulstealer not steal soul
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

I wanted to bring a little piece of Ixombie's thread over, since he's apparently giving up the good fight ;) (j/k Ix). I think Inquisitor Black does a great job of summarizing the opposing viewpoint, and so I'd like to throw a few comments in to explain why I disagree with his viewpoint.

Inquisitor Black wrote:I would like to applaud ixombie and maraith teurl for the two threads that have recently been created, its good to see dark elf players as a group, trying to make things work.


Thanks.

Firstly, these are the advantages I think one gains from putting a high sorceress on a manticore, as opposed to taking a high sorceress on steed, with or without the accompanying beastmaster.

1. Line of Sight.

2. Ability to fly and utilize close ranged spells.

That is is. Can be useful, but nothing I would write home over. I do not see the terror causing nature of the manticore an advantage, as taking a high sorceress and a beastmaster on a manticore is not mutually exclusive. I can have a level 4 spell-caster, and I can also have my manticore, they do not have to be the one unit.


The thing you're missing, that makes it so that you'd want them as one unit as well, is the additional rank-breaking unit that the combo provides (I'll get to the arguments against getting her into combat in a second), as well as the ability to protect the sorc from other threats. Granted, it can make her a target of some shooting that she'd otherwise avoid (though not cannons, since she's a target of those regardless of where she is, and is only protected against them on a steed, in a DR unit, which significantly limits her mobility). My point here is, she has additional risk, but also cancels other risks.

The disadvantages really are too great to even consider paying 190 points in addition to the obligatory ward save and ring of darkness just for the advantages I mentioned. It is a large target, and will be shot to bits. I don't want to hear all this crap about screening it with a hydra, as whether your sorceress shows its face on turn 1 or turn 2, it will have its face sheared off it in less time than you can say "that is a waste of points".


Okay, won't reiterate the 'crap' about screening it with a hydra. What I will reiterate is the fact that not all armies are empire gunlines. Not all armies can (or will) be able to shoot this model to hell in a single turn of shooting. What I will reiterate is that it's even *less* likely to kill both the manticore AND the HS in a single turn shooting. And what I will finally reiterate is that the risk of losing her to shooting is not significantly greater than the risk of
losing a highborn on a manticore to shooting (I'm thinking largely of cannons, jezzails, adn the like). While she costs ~100 pts more than said highborn, and is weaker in combat, she does not have to be the general (which negates the 100VP swing) and she is more powerful out of combat, making her multirole.

Sure, if you manage to avoid missiles, then you make your short range casting ineffective, in addition to the large amount of points paid for the manticore's CC ability. If you don't avoid missiles, or stay away from the most light CC threats then there goes your high sorceress even if the manticore gets to avenge her, if he passes his monster reaction test.


I'm not sure why you call it a given that the HS will break against all these threats. If it's not a light threat, you'll be going in on the rear or flank (or not at all). If you go in on the rear or flank, you've got a fairly good chance of taking out the 1-2 guys you're in contact with using the Manticore's attack, and even if you don't, that's only 1-2 guys attacking back. Even 2 chosen chaos knights aren't likely to take out either the HS OR the manticore in one turn of attacks. Even two turns is unlikely if one of those turns is under the influence of WoP. And of course, the whole time you have to be thinking of this thing in combination with the rest of your army/units. Just like everything else in the DE army, you have to support its charge, charge at the right time. Even the HB has to charge the right unit at the right time. The difference is, while you're waiting for that time, you can blast w/ spells.

Utilizing the high sorceress, its advantages from being on a manticore, and the manticore itself to its full effectiveness ARE mutually exclusive, as opposed to taking the sorceress and manticore separately. Why pay points for a manticore when you are going to be skirting around trying to avoid that cannon? Why pay for the sorceress when you will be trying to get your big beastie into a units flank, where the sorceress is then vulnerable to a counter-charge / return attacks.


Because, the fact is that you can do both in any one game! That's the point... The turns when you can't/won't charge, you can cast spells. The turns that you want to charge, you can fight and STILL cast some of the spells. It's not mutually exclusive over the course of the game.

I know we all want an uber flying caster in our dark elf army, I do too. To quote Austin Powers, "I would like a golden toilet seat, but it's just not on the cards, baby".


yes, it's not in the cards (one of my favorite quotes, btw) to have an uber flying caster in our army. But that's not what this is, and I've never claimed otherwise. This is, however, a useful unit that can provide valuable support to our army in a number of roles.
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Post by Lordfoulbane »

Flit wrote:Regarding Soulstealer, Lord. You are wrong fortunately as she if she gains 3 wounds and loses only three to give her 3 at the end of the game. Then she classes as full VP's I think. As I think it's steal soul from LoD that you count Full VP's if she goes to 0 at the end of the game after you count how many wounds she has lost. I think that all makes sense?.... :?:


I was referring to the soul stealing spell from the Dark Magic list - I'm pretty sure you give up the VP's at the end of the game if the HS loses more or equal to her original number of wounds.

can someone verify this???
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

LFB> I don't have my DE book here. Do you? I don't believe there is any wording that indicates what you're saying in this spell, though. The Death Magic spell Steal Soul works that way, but I don't believe the Soulstealer spell from Dark does.
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Post by Mirz do ordas »

Soulstealer does not have the note about orginal wounds at end of game.

only note about original wounds is the "cannot gain more than double of original wounds" not about losing the added wounds at end and possibly count as slain at end.

That one is only with the death lore vampiric spells
Allthough i do not know why it is not added to the dark lore (inconsequent) but unless added in an (for me unknown) annual, the sorc does not lose those added wounds except from being attacked.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Mirz Do Ordas wrote:That one is only with the death lore vampiric spells Allthough i do not know why it is not added to the dark lore (inconsequent) but unless added in an (for me unknown) annual, the sorc does not lose those added wounds except from being attacked.


Thanks Mirz, that's what I thought. As for the inconsistency, no idea. Maybe due to the range, or else it's an advantage for us being a 'magical' race? :)
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Post by Inquisitor black »

I wanted to bring a little piece of Ixombie's thread over, since he's apparently giving up the good fight (j/k Ix). I think Inquisitor Black does a great job of summarizing the opposing viewpoint, and so I'd like to throw a few comments in to explain why I disagree with his viewpoint.


That is fine.

The thing you're missing, that makes it so that you'd want them as one unit as well, is the additional rank-breaking unit that the combo provides (I'll get to the arguments against getting her into combat in a second), as well as the ability to protect the sorc from other threats. Granted, it can make her a target of some shooting that she'd otherwise avoid (though not cannons, since she's a target of those regardless of where she is, and is only protected against them on a steed, in a DR unit, which significantly limits her mobility). My point here is, she has additional risk, but also cancels other risks.


How is a High Sorceress on a manticore any more of a "rank breaker" than a beastmaster of manticore? Soulstealer doesn't count towards combat res, and WoP doesn't have to be cast from inside the combat. How can you say a HS in combat is more protected than a HS on a dark steed amonst several dark riders units or within a few inches of some CoK. Ridiculous. Also, a HS can be on foot, which in an infantry army is the best protection a caster can get.

Okay, won't reiterate the 'crap' about screening it with a hydra. What I will reiterate is the fact that not all armies are empire gunlines. Not all armies can (or will) be able to shoot this model to hell in a single turn of shooting. What I will reiterate is that it's even *less* likely to kill both the manticore AND the HS in a single turn shooting. And what I will finally reiterate is that the risk of losing her to shooting is not significantly greater than the risk of
losing a highborn on a manticore to shooting (I'm thinking largely of cannons, jezzails, adn the like). While she costs ~100 pts more than said highborn, and is weaker in combat, she does not have to be the general (which negates the 100VP swing) and she is more powerful out of combat, making her multirole.


I don't think it takes an empire gunline to take out a HS on manticore. Infact, I think a unit of crossbowmen and a small unit of archers/huntsmen are more than enough to do so over a few turns. Remember, if your ring of darkness is dispelled (which any sane player would do) you are left with a t3 HS, with a 5+ save. Then, if your opponent has anything capable of taking out the manticore, such as a cannon / bolt thrower, then you might as well start painting red streaks on the table around the sorceress before the battle starts.

I'm not sure why you call it a given that the HS will break against all these threats. If it's not a light threat, you'll be going in on the rear or flank (or not at all). If you go in on the rear or flank, you've got a fairly good chance of taking out the 1-2 guys you're in contact with using the Manticore's attack, and even if you don't, that's only 1-2 guys attacking back. Even 2 chosen chaos knights aren't likely to take out either the HS OR the manticore in one turn of attacks. Even two turns is unlikely if one of those turns is under the influence of WoP. And of course, the whole time you have to be thinking of this thing in combination with the rest of your army/units. Just like everything else in the DE army, you have to support its charge, charge at the right time. Even the HB has to charge the right unit at the right time. The difference is, while you're waiting for that time, you can blast w/ spells.


You are assuming that your opponent lets your little bound spell off, and secondly that she won't be charged before she gets into "the rear". To get into the rear, I would assume against a decent opponent who wouldn't expose it to you, that you would have to spend a turn positioning your HS behind his unit, ready for the charge. Your opponent then has one full turn to get "any" unit into combat with her, and dispel your bound spell with his powerdice. Even with a 25 points detachment of 5 militia, he can direct 10 attacks hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s against your HS. If you flee, then there goes your "rank breaking" attack which you had planned, and jeapordized one turn of magic for.

About the HB, firstly he has a 2+ armour save and a WS good enough to have most units hitting on 5s, 4s at best. The GoP which you would replace allows him to not only act as the "rank breaker", but allowing him to take out heavy threats like Chaos Knights and Steam Tanks, which providing a very effective leadership 10 to where ever its needed. Please don't compare these units as if the sorceress can pick up a GoP and 3 extra attacks whenever she wants to. I can also take 3 level 2 sorceresses if I want in a 2k points in addition to the HB on manticore. Your HS is not the only way of getting effective magic into the list.

Because, the fact is that you can do both in any one game! That's the point... The turns when you can't/won't charge, you can cast spells. The turns that you want to charge, you can fight and STILL cast some of the spells. It's not mutually exclusive over the course of the game.


No it's not mutually exclusive over the course of the game, but you are paying for the HS, its advantages of being on a manticore, and the manticore itself at full price, when each of them won't be used to their full potential. It's not like you are saying "I will only use my manticore's CC ability for 2 turns so I will pay half the points for him". It doesn't work like that. If you want to spend excess points on skewed versatility, then do so, your problem.

yes, it's not in the cards (one of my favorite quotes, btw) to have an uber flying caster in our army. But that's not what this is, and I've never claimed otherwise. This is, however, a useful unit that can provide valuable support to our army in a number of roles.


Valuable support. What a joke. She costs something like 550 points, and you are giving her a support role. For 500 points I can get my uber Tzeentch lord, I can get my Vampire. More than 25% of a 2k army should be more than support, so you trying to escape her defficiency by simply labelling her "support" won't fool anybody, exept yourself. I can take Malekith against the High Elf magic army from hell and call him support if I want, simply because he can't take the heat that will be dished up :D I know you are trying to make things work dude, but really, it's not on the cards :lol:
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Inquisitor Black wrote:How is a High Sorceress on a manticore any more of a "rank breaker" than a beastmaster of manticore?


She's not. But she is both a rank breaker, AND a high sorceress, where the BM/Manti is just a rank breaker. Furthermore, said BM/manti takes 2 hero slots vice the 1 lord slot the HS/Manti takes. Hence my post being about her being a multirole unit.


Soulstealer doesn't count towards combat res, and WoP doesn't have to be cast from inside the combat.


SS does not, no, I don't recall claiming that it did. What I did claim was that the stolen wounds would make her more resilient to return attacks. Furthermore, it'll reduce the US of the target unit, and so a combined attack will be that much further along in CR than it otherwise would have been. As for WoP, it doesn't have to be cast from inside the combat, but it's another impact on how much the return attacks on the HS (if any) will affect the combat.

How can you say a HS in combat is more protected than a HS on a dark steed amonst several dark riders units or within a few inches of some CoK. Ridiculous. Also, a HS can be on foot, which in an infantry army is the best protection a caster can get.


What I said was that she was more protected against some threats. Those threats would be the ones who would want to charge her. She has very little to worry about most skirmishers, fast cav, or enemy flying units charging. The DR unit might have to worry, and it might not be convenient to flee (due to positioning, or just the tactical situation). She's more protected against those threats, and less protected against shooting threats. Fortunately, she's also fast enough, and agile enough, to hop between pieces of terrain, etc, and limit how many shots can be fired on her.

I don't think it takes an empire gunline to take out a HS on manticore. Infact, I think a unit of crossbowmen and a small unit of archers/huntsmen are more than enough to do so over a few turns.


Conceded. I specifically said in ONE turn, because I was responding to your comments about how quickly she'd be killed. My point is that against a heavy shooting threat, she only has to be in the open for one turn, because the next turn she'll be in combat, or behind the shooters.

Remember, if your ring of darkness is dispelled (which any sane player would do) you are left with a t3 HS, with a 5+ save. Then, if your opponent has anything capable of taking out the manticore, such as a cannon / bolt thrower, then you might as well start painting red streaks on the table around the sorceress before the battle starts.


I never said anything about the RoD, and in fact don't advocate its use because it's only in effect in close combat. Even w/o the 6's to hit requirement, *a* cannon or bolt thrower has very little chance of killing either the manticore or the HS in a single shot, even if it does hit (which also isnt' guaranteed). And, once again, part of your army's mission will be to silence that kind of threat quickly.

You are assuming that your opponent lets your little bound spell off, and secondly that she won't be charged before she gets into "the rear". To get into the rear, I would assume against a decent opponent who wouldn't expose it to you, that you would have to spend a turn positioning your HS behind his unit, ready for the charge.


I'm assuming nothing of the sort, my example did not include RoD stats. The worse thing two rank and file infantry or cavalry models can do is 8 attacks (two chosen knights of khorne). On odds, that will not kill either the HS or the Manticore in a single round of hth, even if they both survive the manticore's attacks (not that I'm advocating that charge solo... that'd have to be a combined charge, just like anything else in the DE army). As for the opponent 'letting' me get to his rear, that's not any harder than with any other flyer, but meanwhile, I'm killing stuff w/ spells while trying to maneuver. Additionally, a well positioned large target flyer can threaten the flank or rear of several units at once. So either my opponent turns them all to face the one threat (possibly opening up other arcs from my other units) or else they ignore it with some, at their risk.

Your opponent then has one full turn to get "any" unit into combat with her, and dispel your bound spell with his powerdice. Even with a 25 points detachment of 5 militia, he can direct 10 attacks hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s against your HS. If you flee, then there goes your "rank breaking" attack which you had planned, and jeapordized one turn of magic for.


Nonsense. First, lets assume that for some reason I put the HS in a place where it can be charged by butthead infantry. THen lets assume that I don't whack them with magic before they charge. Then lets assume they pass their terror test. Even then, they'll have at most 4 models in contact (I'm only on a 50mmx50mm base... the most that'll get into contact is 4, including corners, etc). 8 attacks on my HS is 2 wounding hits, whcih averages 1 wound. Then the Manticore gets its attacks back, and hits on 3, kills on 2... Look, I know you're disagreeing with me here, but at least use reasonable examples for your arguments, please.

About the HB, firstly he has a 2+ armour save and a WS good enough to have most units hitting on 5s, 4s at best. The GoP which you would replace allows him to not only act as the "rank breaker", but allowing him to take out heavy threats like Chaos Knights and Steam Tanks, which providing a very effective leadership 10 to where ever its needed.


Absolutely. No argument, he's better IN combat that the HS. No question. That's not the point, however.

Please don't compare these units as if the sorceress can pick up a GoP and 3 extra attacks whenever she wants to. I can also take 3 level 2 sorceresses if I want in a 2k points in addition to the HB on manticore. Your HS is not the only way of getting effective magic into the list.


I don't believe I ever said the HS/manti was as good as the HB in hth combat. What I did say was that she was a fighter/mage. She isn't as good as the HB in close combat, but she does provide quite a lot of utility in combat, AND can cast spells while not in combat, AND has the speed to get where you need her, AND has the LOS to target what you want. The comparison to the HB was specifically w/ regard to the risk you assume against a heavy shooting army, and nothing else. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. And yes, you absolutely could take 3xlvl 2 sorceresses, but that would then limit you in other ways. It's all about tradeoff. I'm not at all trying to argue that the HB/Manticore is a bad option... we all know it's a very good option for providing punch and armor piercing. What I'm saying is that it's not the *only* option, and that this combination is another option that works quite well.

No it's not mutually exclusive over the course of the game, but you are paying for the HS, its advantages of being on a manticore, and the manticore itself at full price, when each of them won't be used to their full potential. It's not like you are saying "I will only use my manticore's CC ability for 2 turns so I will pay half the points for him". It doesn't work like that.


How many turns do you expect a HB/manticore to be in close combat in a game? Are you telling me that any turn he's not in combat, the manticore is wasted points? For that matter, the HB would also be wasted points when not in combat, and not lending Ld, right? Those would be turns when the HS is worth *more* points, yes? Since she's still casting spells, possibly causing psych tests, etc... That's my point, I think. She's worth something less in turns she's in combat that the HB would be, but shes' worth significantly more in turns when she's out of combat than the HB would be. And for not many more VPs, if she's not the general.

Valuable support. What a joke. She costs something like 550 points, and you are giving her a support role. For 500 points I can get my uber Tzeentch lord, I can get my Vampire. More than 25% of a 2k army should be more than support, so you trying to escape her defficiency by simply labelling her "support" won't fool anybody, exept yourself. I can take Malekith against the High Elf magic army from hell and call him support if I want, simply because he can't take the heat that will be dished up :D I know you are trying to make things work dude, but really, it's not on the cards :lol:


It's not a joke... Maybe I should have used the term of the day, "force multiplier" for her... since she can hold table quarters and affect more of the battle than a DR unit... But the fact is that if she is support, then so is that HB/Manticore. So is the Tzeentch lord, or that daemon prince. They are none of them tough enough to take on a ranked unit to the front. They are none of them able to survive concentrated shooting.

Finally, I'm not "trying" to make things work. I'm presenting an idea, that is an option on our list. I'm explaining why it's not the losing gambit that many think it is. Sure, it's not as straightforward to use as an uber character... but it still can be a devastating addition to our army. If you don't like it... don't use it. I'll admit it's not for everyone.
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Post by Inquisitor black »

As I said when I started, I am not going to get into a theoryhammer debate here. I have presented my arguements, and you disagree, vice versa.

It comes down to what works for you, and what works for me. If you think that you can keep her out of danger, use her 550 point cost as a "force muliplier" and end in success then kudos to you. I am bias, as I would not include a High Sorceress in my 2k points army regardless of how she is mounted due to my own opinion of Dark Elf magic, so taking one mounted on a monster designed for close combat to me is not as an efficient use of 550 points as a HB on manticore and some harpies.

I just felt that with all the hype that was going on, the arguements against taking her needed to be spelt out. If you still believe that she has a place in your list, go for it mate, let's just hope none of your opponents take a "reasonable" amount shooting.
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Post by Drakken »

Okay, I've debated this back and forth with myself, looked up the older threads where I was talked out of this, and am convinced to give it a good solid 5-7 game trial (that covers freak rolling, a wide vareity of oppenants, and general weirdness associated with die gaming).

To answer the whole shooting point, consider this:
Infantry:
Only Crossbows and Handguns have a decent chance of Wounding the Manticore, and given averages, unless in quanity are unlikely to kill either in 1 Round. Bow Fire will bounce mericless almost completely.
War Machines:
3 Armies bring Cannons normally, Stone Throwers will have a hard time wounding, and Bolt Throwers still have to hit. And on this note, DE are one of the best War Machine hunting armies I've ever seen, and I can hide behind Terrain and/or other Large Targets.

And When you consider you that only 1 of the Infanty-Mounts is move and Fire, and a Move 20" can be behind most lines on Turn 2, I'm not too incredible scared of dying to shooting quickly.
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…
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Post by Inquisitor black »

Okay, I've debated this back and forth with myself, looked up the older threads where I was talked out of this, and am convinced to give it a good solid 5-7 game trial (that covers freak rolling, a wide vareity of oppenants, and general weirdness associated with die gaming).

To answer the whole shooting point, consider this:
Infantry:
Only Crossbows and Handguns have a decent chance of Wounding the Manticore, and given averages, unless in quanity are unlikely to kill either in 1 Round. Bow Fire will bounce mericless almost completely.
War Machines:
3 Armies bring Cannons normally, Stone Throwers will have a hard time wounding, and Bolt Throwers still have to hit. And on this note, DE are one of the best War Machine hunting armies I've ever seen, and I can hide behind Terrain and/or other Large Targets.

And When you consider you that only 1 of the Infanty-Mounts is move and Fire, and a Move 20" can be behind most lines on Turn 2, I'm not too incredible scared of dying to shooting quickly.


You are talking about wounding the manticore. What about the sorceress? Bowfire will not bounce of her man, which you will learn through experience.
Be not afraid of the dark, but of what the dark hides.
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Drakken
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Post by Drakken »

Not really, I did learn about things like that. When I started, I almost Automatically mounted here on a Dark Pegasus. With 2/3 of the hits going for the mount, she absobs better than most things in the army. And of that 3rd that hit, average out wounds (50% Bows, 66% C-Bow), then subtract 33% for Wards, and thats not many wounds at all, especially since your almost guranteed a spell to gain wounds back (though does make me wish for Light Lore). Its a calculated risk to increase her exposure and damage potential, since on foot she has little chance of dominating enough to earn her price tag back....
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Inquisitor black
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Post by Inquisitor black »

Ok, so if 3 bow shots are fired, 1 will probably hit her.

What if 20 shots are fired? What if 7-8 fury of khaine hit?

A t3, w3 elf with a 5+ save can't stand up to that for many turns. Are you argueing with that?

Your point about the pegusus is right, that is why any sorceress I take is on foot or on a dark steed, where it can hide.
Be not afraid of the dark, but of what the dark hides.
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Maraith tuerl
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

@IB> You're absolutely right, she can't stand up to it for many turns. But she can stand up to it long enough to get into a position where she won't be subject to it (either in close combat, or screened by terrain). Meanwhile, she will likely (with 5 spells) have the means to recover the lost wounds to herself.

Listen, all in all, I've really enjoyed your comments and observations. If nothing else, it's given me a lot of food for thought. I've not yet faced my friend's wood elf army with this combo, and once I do maybe my theories will be proven wrong. Do me a favor, though. Look at the thread I started a while ago in the Army List forum, and pm me as to whether you think the HB list stands a better chance than the HS list... 'cause I'm not convinced yet that it does.

Link to that list is here
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Post by Flit »

Hiya MT, whilst I've been off work today. I've been painting my executioners up, but I've been able to think a little bit more about the HS on Manticore whilst the paint is drying and have concluded that a more interesting option for her instead of the RoD being a magic item that can or cannot be in play would be the Hydra Sword. 5 more points I know but I'll explain a little, after reading the WD with the review of the druchii list I read Gav's comments on the black guard, regarding stubborn and hatred. You very rarely got the benefit of both due to either being charged and losing the hatred or losing the stubborn when you win the combat if you charge due to the high initiave next round you lost the re-roll for hatred so with what Gav said, removing your enemy is better than a better armour save especially for a low toughness army like the druchii. So I tacked this onto my sorceress and thought why try to keep her safe with the RoD which can go wrong when I can take the attack to the enemy with D3 more attacks. A potential of 4 attacks the same as a HB but with only a S3. But if you pick your fights right you can definately swing the combat in your favour with those extra attacks from her combined with the manticore's. Any opinions on this new idea?
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Drakken
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Post by Drakken »

Flit, thats eeriely similar to variant I was planning to test. I used the Sword of Battle instead of a Dispel Scroll, making her still 495, but with a chance of at least hurting things. I don't know about the Hydra Blade, that puts in the 550 range, which I can't squeeze out of my list without massive overhaul, but it might be worth a try. Nice to have someone back my thought process up, makes me think I might not be crazy. :mrgreen:
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Maraith tuerl
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Those are interesting ideas, fellas. I briefly considered it myself, as well (the hydra blade; didn't think of the SoB). Only briefly, because as I made the rest of my list I realized I didn't have a place for dispel scrolls at all (okay, had a place, but opted for my 'apprentice' to have the Darkstar/SoG combo instead). Since I consider the CoBI and the ToF to be two 'essential' choices for her, I don't have the points for the Hydra blade unless I go Scroll-less, whcih I'd rather not do (I only get one, but I consider it something I'd prefer not to give up).

Having said all that... I might consider it. It takes the fighter/mage 'multiclass' concept one step further. 2-4 S3 attacks might help against some opponents, though generally only against the weaker ones (for example, rank and file infantry), it might give you the edge that swings the tide. The Sword of Battle, on the other hand... not so sure. It's certainly more affordable, and keeps the HS cost down (both of which are key), but I don't know that 2 S3 attacks (vs 2-4) is really better than a Dispel scroll or Power stone... I'll have to think about it some more.
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