Shaping the Battlefield

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Lordsaradain
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Post by Lordsaradain »

I prefer as little terrain as possibe because i basically always have a straightforward heavy-hitting army, and not alot of missle troops and I mostly use the terrain pieces on the gaming board to screen my own units from enemy fire.
I hate woodelf players who always go dabbling about with their woods and always hang back at the edge of the gameboard so that my infantry hasn't even reached them when the game is over. I played in a contest vs a WE player, instead of turn limit there was time limit 1 h. Luckily I outclassed him thx to my shamans and chariots(I had a 1,000pts Orc Army) , but my big blocks of 30 orcs didnt even reach him at the end of the game. I had to leave the contest early and couldn't finish...
Later I learned that the very same WE player I beat had won the contest and recived a free boxed set. So Unfair!
I happily play against any player on any terrain exept WE ...I simply cant stand them. When I play both players set up one side and then we have a 'roll'off' and the winner picks the side he prefers, not a very good way of deploying in my opinion but the only thing my friends can agree upon.
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Drek
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Post by Drek »

Thinking about what I've read so far....

Most of us place terrain to shape the battlefield to give ourselves an edge. And it doesn't automatically balance out because you then choose table edges- if I play assault and my opponent plays shooty and I put a big piece of terrain in the middle, that will likely be more of a problem to him than it is to me no matter what table edge we're on.

So it seems that what's required to effectively shape the field is to know what both armies need to do to win. Then place terrain in a way that makes it easier for you and harder for him, realizing that he's going to do the same.

But based on what I've read to this point, I think it all starts with having a general idea of what both sides are trying to do, and then putting down terrain with those vague goals in mind.
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Grogsnotpowwabomba
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Drek wrote:...So it seems that what's required to effectively shape the field is to know what both armies need to do to win. Then place terrain in a way that makes it easier for you and harder for him, realizing that he's going to do the same.

But based on what I've read to this point, I think it all starts with having a general idea of what both sides are trying to do, and then putting down terrain with those vague goals in mind.


Bingo!! ;)
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Grogsnotpowwabomba
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

I have made this sticky. If anyone objects, please let me know.
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Quinn
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Post by Quinn »

The latest WD has that very interesting Scenario generator, I'm specifically speaking about the advanced one. Any thought on how this might effect the deployment of armies and who will/will not benefit? A cursory look seems to indicate that this generator will benefit armies like ours, but I havn't had time to fully analyze it yet.
I'm also wondering if this will become the 'de facto' scenario generator at tournaments and such. If so, we need to figure out how to maximize our advantages.

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Teblin
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Post by Teblin »

Very interesting subject,
and i've seen it debated many times over the years.

The setup of a battlefield can be very decisive in a game. It can even be so important that a game can already be won before the game begins because of clever battlefield set up and deployment.
So the big question always is; how to make it as fair as possible for both parties when setting up the battlefield?

Simple conclusion: There isn't a system to make this "fair" in all cases. Even worse...when players are allowed to place scenery with tactical advantage in mind (whatever the system) it will most often lead to very predictable set ups....

Let me suggest another approach.

First stop thinking of scenery as "helpfull"or as "obstacles" and simply look at them as trees, hills, rivers, etc.. :D

You could even think up a certain theme for the landscape
for example: a valley with a river running through
Then try to create an interesting landscape (of course with certain restrictions for scenarios and such) BEFORE anything is fixed ruleswise, like who's the attacker or defender, which side the players will deploy on, etc..

Both players can do this together or even better; get a third party to do it (ideally someone who doesn't know what the specific rules and/or scenario will be)

Only when all the scenery is placed (no adjustements after this!) then determine on which side both players will begin (and any other rule agreements)
Just let one roll a dice; even is this side, uneven is that side..
simple!

Not only is this a simple way to set up a table that will be as fair as possible to both players (without using any specific system or rules) but most often will also create a much more interesting battlefield to play on.

HOW to use the scenery to your best advantage is another discussion all together...but in practice i've seen that this approach will result in a fair setup of the battlefield that most players will agree upon.

Just a suggestion from a Druchii fan who has just discovered these forums! :)
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Post by Teech »

Teblin, this approach is well known and whilst it is a creative excersise in itself to contrust a landscaped battlefield, I think you miss the point of the postings which are concerned with the placement of terrain which might be favourable to your army and disadvantageous to your opponent. I`ve used your approach many times and whilst it provides a pretty battlefield, the fact is random terrain throws up all kinds of permuatations you would not have considered in setting up a battlefield.

I play a lot of 40K where terrain is vital and I have always thought that WHFB by comparison give terrain and its effects little consideration.

In Grogs eg he described how he had some notion of what he wanted from the terrain in respect to his army and how it would cramp his opponent's style of play. Because of the scatter effect, the terrain did not go quite how he wanted it, which presented him with the problem of how to exploit a less than ideal situation, which he did!

Historically commanders, usually those on the defensive, sought out the best battlefield location they could to fight their battle. Eg Wellington had already scouted out the Waterloo battlefield at the start of the Hundred Days, Darius even prepared the ground for his chariots at Arbela. Even at Gettysburg where the battle started as a meeting engagement, the Union troops fell back to a prepared defensive position.

Commanders will therefore seek out ground favourable to the type of force they command and most would not offer battle in unfavourable terrain unless they were forced to by strategic considerations.

Finally, placement of terrain (and I prefer scattering 3d6 random method here) adds another dimension to the game in terms of thinking how you might outwit your opponent.

I would like to see some more posts with regard to the RSG in this month`s WD.
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Post by Cerebalos »

terrain has a big effect on any wargame. if you know theres lots of hills and rocky terrain you dont take fast moving units unless you got an emmense number of them. if its a nearly clear then take lots of fast units.
thats the way i see it anyways
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Post by Zeb »

Personally I think that in fantasy there is too little terrain in general. The games Showed in WD and played with the Pitched Battle Scenario is favroble to a shooty army and/or a fast cavalry army. Nothing in the way, just shoot or charge down the table.
Part of this is that it's easier to move regiments around on the feild. But it's a dissadvantage to some armies (elves in general) some of these armeis have gaind special rules to compensate for this (Woodies) and evryone thinks this is crap. But has anyone treid to fight a battle with the WE rules but both players get an additional forest to place outside of the deployment zone. This makes for truly spectaculare fights, you really have to bring out everything you learned about tactics (either in Warhammer, the library or the military). And it might really be so that half your army hasn't seen action. And it limitates the benefits of some armies to the degree that a "Nuln army" or "HE Cav Force" (as examples) player might actually change his style of play or list.

There is also a huge missunderstanding about terrain in general, everythin is either open, difficoult or impassible terrain. I ca't remeber the last time someone said in a tournament that this is "very difficoult" terrain. Something that actually benefits HE Cav Forces even more (since Banner of Ellryon is for difficoult terrain only).

Another thing is, if both have a hill insde the DZ it's not equal, since I only have 1 RBT in my army now I have really started arguing about this. In one case I got a wall in my DZ instead, and was called cheater when he relised what it did...
Last edited by Zeb on Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grogsnotpowwabomba
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Zeb,

I sent you a PM about the thread we have discussin the Scenario Generator, which goes a long way to elmiinating many of the problems you mentioned. If you have not used this system yet, I highly recommend it.
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Quinn
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Post by Quinn »

Part of this is that it's easier to move regiments around on the feild

I think that you've hit on a critical point here Zeb, players don't like to mess up their perfectly formed units and have to deploy them in a haphazard way. This can be used to our advantage. Anything that makes an opponent uncomfortable and forces him to 'think outside the box' is an advantage to those that are tactically proficient and most importantly flexible in their thinking.
Commanders will therefore seek out ground favourable to the type of force they command and most would not offer battle in unfavourable terrain unless they were forced to by strategic considerations

As someone who made their living in the military, Teech has hit on probably the single most important aspect of winning the battle. This is the whole premise behind this entire thread. How to shape the battlefield in order to increase your chances of success. I'm not an expert on Warhammer by any means, but when it comes to war and tactics in general, I believe I can hold my own. Now that I'm actually home every night (I just took a civilian job that has NOTHING to do with the military....finally), I hope to be able to contribute more input to this thread. Whether it translates to the Warhammer battlefield remains to be seen... !lol!

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Tengilbefriaren
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Post by Tengilbefriaren »

I can't believe some generals think of terrain as something which is as good to you as your enemy, terrain makes all the difference. For example, if your opponent goes for cheap units (like gobbos, skaven, spearmen...) he will have a major dissadvantage against your elite units if you try to position the terrain like a barrier with a gap in it so only a few units can fight at the same time. The bad thing about elite units is that you're gonna get seriously outnumbered, one of many problems which can be solved by terrain.
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Post by Mord. »

TengilBefriaren wrote:I can't believe some generals think of terrain as something which is as good to you as your enemy.


Actually that is true, but it does not mean that it has any less value. If you can get the units in such a position that your opponent is left exposed to a force that is too hard to handle, while he cannot support his weak position, you have simply used the terrain better than he has. But if you are outmanuevred by your opponent, he'll have the same advantage. So with much in warhammer, terrain is again a mather of the right experience.

Generally speaking terrain does the following: It forces a player into an attacking position and the other into a defensive position, not more than logical as you can imagine guarding your flank with a forest and suddenly that unit of spearmen on the other side comes walking through the forest, threathening your flank! As you cannot take that charge head-on (with most things) you have to turn to face them (you defend). So if your opponent positioned the unit threathening the frontage in a way that again a flank is left exposed when the you turn to face the spearmen, he has used the terrain to force you into a mistake and a combat he'll have the upper hand in.
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