A fresh look at Executioners: A Tactical Dissection

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A fresh look at Executioners: A Tactical Dissection

Post by Underway »

Executioners are one of the best looking units in the game. Many players have come over to playing Dark Elves because of the evil looking Draiches and heavily armour visages of the Execs. However in my limited experience with Execs I have discovered that they do have weaknesses that the enemy can exploit.

Execs are used in a DE army for three reasons, Great Weapons aka Draiches, Killing Blow, and finally they look really cool. They also have a few weaknesses, namely striking last in the second round of combat, T3 and a AS of 5+.

These weaknesses are what inhibit a few players from taking Execs as large units. Many players only use execs as small flankers in units of 10. This in turn means that even fast cavalry can charge and eliminate them, getting the first hit, and not allowing the Execs to strike back. Even a decent sized unit of Empire spears will often see off a similarly sized unit of execs due to the weaknesses inherent to the execs.

So in order to increase the effectiveness of your execustioners you need to limit the weaknesses of Strike second, T3 and AS 5+. How can you do this? Well there are three options and each has its advantages of varying strength. The options are charge, flank and reduce the enemy attacks.

Charge: This is the most obvious tactic to use with execs as it also takes care of #3 problem as well because it allows you to reduce the number of attacks back. The problem with this is that your enemy will be aware of your desperate need to charge with execs.

If you get charged by anything without GW your unit is as good as dead in the second round if not the first. A basic unit of execs also need to get the charge in hopes of breaking the unit on the first turn, as if they don't the second round will likely not go in your favour.

There are a number of ways to get charge on an enemy, bait and flee, clever postioning etc... but if you want your unit to do it alone there are two banners that can help you out. The Soul Shadows Standard and the Banner of Murder. The SSS can allow your unit to flee from a charge and countercharge next turn, thus giving the execs strike first. The Banner of Murder allows you to get the jump on an enemy that thinks he is out of range of a charge. Both are good additions to a large exec unit that needs to get in there and cause some carnage.

Flank: Well this one combines all three exec improving situations. It reduces the attacks back against your unit (no pikes, spears, characters and sometimes less ranks in the flank) and gives them the charge. Clever postioning can get you the flank. The Banner of Murder can also give you the flank if your enemy thinks he is out of range of a flank charge.

Reduce attacks back: This is the bane of the Exec unit. Essentially in the second round of combat if your unit did not eliminate the opposition he is going to get some back, painfully. You strike second, not a normally comfortable postion for elves, and the enemy will most likely take out a few models from you front rank thus reducing your ability to kill him.

There are two ideas for increasing the combat potential of your execs. The first is place a noble with a halberd or other initiative striking weapon in the front rank. That way he can lay about with his weapon, reduce the numbers of enemies able to attack and thus allow more of your execs to strike in the second round. This is a very cost effective method as a noble without magic comes in under 85 pts.

The second idea is to place an assasin in your unit. An assasin is a great compliment to an exec unit as he can even strike first if your unit is charged! Eliminating the front rank of the enemy before they can hit your soft execs can swing the combat in your favour very quickly. I would equip the assasin with the Hand of Khaine, Manbane and 2HW. This means he will have the potential of killing 4 enemy troops, and there will automatically be -1 attack back on your unit due to the Hand of Khaine. I think the assasin idea is the best one, just for the shear annoyance it can cause your opponent.
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Post by Mtucache »

Absolutely briliant breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses of one of our superb units.

The assassin idea works great in the first round, and especially when charged, but I'm wondering how he'll affect the following rounds. The Noble idea is shaky at best, as he is never guarenteed to kill anything with high T or AS....

So, sticking an Assassin with HoK, Manbane and 2HW in a unit of Executioners will help against charges, and be quite a nasty surprise for small units of heavily armoured troops... especially knight units. I'm sure the point breakdown would be very competitive to field a unit of 12 Execs w/Assassin against a knight unit with a Lord in it.... even if both units are entirely wiped out.

How about larger mob type units?... it seems to be an awful shame to use an assassin to kill the front rank of a spearmen unit, gaining you only 50 or so points, while putting four times that at risk... :?

Are they specialized anti-elite troops, or are they capable of handling a mob? Is there any solution we can think of which gives them an advantage in several round of combat, rather than just the first or second??? The standard ideas are good for getting the charge, but unless you can get it into a flank, it still doesn't help you past the first round of combat.

I've gotten away from using my Executioners lately, but I'd love to get back to them.... as you said: they are the reason that so many of us started DE in the first place. ;)
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Post by Shadow crusader »

I dont think the executioners are needed to handle mob units, thats what the witch elves are for.

but the witches cant punch through armour like executioners can, with one in six chance of killing instantly and -2 armor save modifier.

My friend use them psychologicaly, as the enemy very rarely lets their characters near his 10-man unit in fear of killing blow.
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Post by Alex c »

Good analysis Underway :D

I think the Assassin idea is quite brilliant, if somewhat on the expensive side, especially for smaller Executioner units. Perhaps our shiny new Soul Shadows Standard would be a better plan? It's far cheaper (about 1/3 the cost) and although you could only put it on one unit, you're virtually guaranteed the charge.

Perhaps for those who field more than one unit, they could try out both of them in the same army.

I also had the thought of using them in combination with Dark Riders, say 12 Exe's and 5 DR's. The Dark Riders could advance alongside the Executioners and if armed with RXB's, could potentially eliminate any Fast Cav threats. If not armed with missiles, or they fail to do enough damage, they can always try their baiting tricks to allow a flank charge from the Executioners, which will almost certainly take down any kind of flanking force the enemy sends your way. They wouldn't even cause panic as the US of the DR's is lower than the Exe's. If the Executioners are charged, then they have the SSS or the Assassin to deal with it, and also the enemy unit is open for a flank charge from the Dark Riders if the combat ensues.
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Post by Malfunction »

I know it violates a lot of recent thinking, but my Executioners are used completely differently than described so far. I use my Executioners as a hard hitting base unit, 22 models strong. I start with a base of 20, and the SSS. I then add a Battle Standard Bearer with Dread Banner. Finally, I throw in a Highborn with Draich and Blood Armour. I get 7 attacks first in subsequent rounds of combat, normally eliminating all but the upgrade (depending on saves, of course), and then hope I have models left afterwards. If so, I can usually score a killing blow. After that, I am normally larger and cause fear, causing an auto break.

I use them as a bait unit as well. A large block of marching troops with 2 banners (obviously one is the BSB) is going to get a bit of attention, so I line up 8 COK, CSM on one side and another hard hitting unit on the other, giving my Execs either a held charge (when charged directly), flee with auto rally, or flank charge if someone is ballsy enough to charge either outside unit.

This tactic provides a clear lane of attack if the opponent decides to avoid it altoghether, and with the quicker units on the outside of the Execs, I can normally head off any diversion.

I know a major school of thought is to not put all eggs in one basket, however this is an exception. This provides hitting power, subsequent initiave attacks, and protection for the characters. Also, while the whole unit causes fear, many units will run from an auto break or stand still after failing a fear test.

While this post reads as an individual tactic, it can also be looked at as another option for one of the Druchii best units. At 11 points per model, they are far more valuable than Corsairs, more deadly than Witch Elves, and more useful than Spearmen. Equipped correctly, this unit can wipe out nearly every unit on the table. While MSU/MSE is a growing fad right now, this tactic with Executioners is just as deadly and far more advantageous.
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Post by Ash010110 »

Besides the ideas presented above, I'd like to share some my experiences at the Baltimore GT, where I fielded my Raiders of the Black Ark list. The poignant part about the list is that it featured 2 units of Executioners (10- and 12-strong) with full command. The rest of the army had units of comparable cost. The idea was that every unit is a threat, but each unit is individually expendable.

Now that I set this up, let me tell you how I found myself using them more often than not: as bait. Yep, you heard it right. . . BAIT. People tended to ignore the witch elves, corsairs, riders, and ranked up warriors to shoot/charge/magic the draich-toting elves to oblivion. After 2 rounds, I started using this to my advantage and found that unlike minimal-sized warriors, executioners provide better bait in that ppl actually TAKE said bait. Nobody bothers with a unit of 12 spears. . . but a unit of 12 executioners gets attention. So I redid the list (just keeping the musician so my two units are 116-127pts), and used them as front-line kamikazi's. . . worked like a dream. My corsairs and warriors were able to get flank charges all over the place b/c my foe would charge the executioners without a thought. The ones who didn't take the bait got charged anyway. . . with riders or double-nobles in the flank.

Also, a secret for how to stand up to fluffy charges (fast cav, hounds, skirmishers, etc) is to deploy them 7 wide. A unit of 11 w/ champion only costs a little over 130 pts. . . this is similar to a unit of riders w/ rxb's and musician. With 4 models in the back rank, you actually get a rank bonus, and the when 3-4 die on the charge, you still get 4-5 attacks back. I've actually pulled this off in only two games, but I think the idea is valid. Since every unit out there (except for two) needs 4's to hit them at best, a wide frontage allows them to dish some respectable damage back.

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Post by Malda »

Thank you for this post Underway, I alwas hoped that executioners can be used in other way that they look at the first sight, and so I thanks to Ash(binar?) the idea of bait is perfect. They are cheap and have that, what bait unit of spears miss... I mean the heavy hit(7+4 formation), If they dont get charged.

To reply at the origin post:
I experimented with executioners many times, after some time they become my no-minder unit, mainly because I use mostly infantry based elves, where heavy hitting is a rare thing some chariots,BG,highborn on manti, but unit of exes (mostly 12-18 7 in front) with banner of murder can fullfil one more role than heavyhit: surprising attack, which can win a whole game for you. It's one-time surprise but it dont mind if your opponent knows, that you have this banner their charge move 11-16 makes always good headache.

To the idea of assassin hiding in exes, I think its a wrong way to use them, they become too expensive for how, they are fragile, they want to charge and when they charge, then they dont need assassin.
Noble with DoDP is cheaper and very very fluffy, but I would always choose first to put him on steed or in chariot.

At the end I want to say, that unit of exes with BoM is one of our best units, and now when we have SSS used by COK, we have two best surprisemove-units in the game and move wins games. And they corespond perfectly with druchii fluff.

Finaly I want to thank to you guys for perfect work and enthusiasm, I read Druchii.net almost daily and I think that my ability to play raised by 100% in last year, I dont know how I could play before (quite 10 years now) without this site, and my love to DE raised significantly too. I thanks mainly to Ash, Grogsnot, Underway, DA, Vorchild (do you do anything else than thinking about DE guys?) and many many others (and Kitrik of course)

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Post by Warbucks »

You know how they say that EVERY unit comes with hand weapons. I have actually used executioner hand weapons at Strength 3 that still have killing blow. I only do this against large units with Toughness equal or lower than 3 strength.

So in the long run, you get to attack in Initiative order and have the chance of killing blow. You may wound more with 5 strength, but against the right units, having initiative with Executioners is a big bonus. Espeically against multi-rank attacks.
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Post by Perfectly_dark007 »

firstly, great ideas!
but secondly im a little unsure of the assasin HoK combo. The rules for HoK state that one enemy model in base contact with the player lose one attack. this means that if you get lucky and kill all 3 models in contact with the assasin, you still dont get the 'automatic -1 attack back'. id probably swap the HoK for the RoK, which gives you an extra attack to open a can of whoop-ass to your opponent
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Post by Darkspear »

You know how they say that EVERY unit comes with hand weapons. I have actually used executioner hand weapons at Strength 3 that still have killing blow. I only do this against large units with Toughness equal or lower than 3 strength.


according to our army bk, executioners do not have hand weapon. i doubt we can make the assumption
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Post by Drakken »

I have re-invisioned the role of my Execs throught my armies more times than I can count. As the first Elite/Hard Hitting troop I added to my army, there've had the most time being fiddled with, and its worked wonders. I started with 16 strong units, often with a character and/or Warbanner, as a main line hammer unit. This didn't work to well (especially being pre-revision), as they tended to lack the stand up power to be the primary ranked hammer in the list. They were subsequently demoted to 12 and flanker status...this didn't work very well either, as they either didn't enter combat (I won or lost it too quickly for reinforcement, misjudged my wheel arc, or was general out of range/postion) or were a primary target of alot of attention. While I considered an idea similar to Ash's suggestion, I found I just couldn't do that to them (they've been just too forgiving in games to me over the years I guess). So they recived a bit of a promotion, back to main-line unit, with a few differences from before. At 20 strong, with FC, and usually a Character and/or Warbanner (notice a trend?), they are now one of 2-3 Heavy-Hitting Mainline units. There aren't a focal point, they tend to hang strong in a mobile line with fully ranked suppport.

So, what has all this rambling amounted too? Executioners have no set role, they can fill so many, aren't too expensive, and general a great infantry troop.
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Post by Cerulaetas »

How about the SSS banner and Hydra banner? The hydra banner would have to go on the BSB as it's more than the execs can take, but suddenly your 7 wide unit of execs is getting 14 strength 5 attacks... Or if you want to throw a MAJOR curveball at your opponent you could give your BSB the Banner of Nagarythe. I realize for 150 points that most people think that it's overpriced, but if you can pull it off you can have a massive advantage over your opponent. The major point of it is that it gives +1 to CR for ALL friendly units in combat w/in 6". If you charge 2 units of dark riders into the flanks of the unit that just charged you, then that's an additional +2 to CR along with everything else. The execs won't be going anywhere either considering they're unbreakable.

I haven't tried this yet, but I'm definitely going to in the near future.

I realize that the above 2 tactics don't really discuss how executioners are going to survive in prolonged combat, since the BoN doesn't really help the execs not get killed, but it doesn't really seem like execs are able to sit anywhere for long. If only they could take shields...
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Post by Warbucks »

darkspear wrote:
according to our army bk, executioners do not have hand weapon. i doubt we can make the assumption


Well, think about this. If Bane of Forged Steel is cast on a unit of Executioners they wouldn't be able to hit at St. 5, so instead of hand weapons, they just attack with hands.

So in my oppinion, you should be able to attack with either your hands (with Killing Blow) or the Draich (also with Killing Blow). You choose? I am not sure though, now that you mention that they don't have hand weapons. Just a thought.
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Post by Drakken »

Actually, its in the rules, every model is assumed to be armed with a Hand Weapon in addition to all other equipment. So you can attack at S3 or S5 depending on your prefence.
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Post by Da'ghault »

I agree with a lot that have been said, but there is one thing that I am really tired to hear almost every time the Executioners are being evaluated.

If they don't charge or win on the first turn then they are dead. They will basically loose against anyone.

This statement is only true to a certain extent. Yes they will loose if they don't manage to break a unit of plague monks on the charge, but they won't loose next round automatically if they fail to break a unit of dwarf warriors with hand weapon and shields on the charge.

At the moment the most cost effective equipment combination is hand weapon and shield. If we are not talking about a units with some kind of special rule that gives extra attacks or strength then this unit is one of the best opponents available for the Executioners (great weapon wielders are of course even better). A completely 'normal' unit will hit on 4+, wound on 4+ and the executioners save on 5+. So a normal sized unit of 5*4 with full command will cut down 1 Executioner if they strike first. That will give you enough attacks back to retaliate.
These units are for the most time less expensive than a large unit of Executioners, but most of the time they won't have a magical banner.

If up against any multiattack units then the Executioners have to be lucky to survive a second turn.

I have used Banner of Murder for a number of games(3-4 tournmanets) and it have only been used for maybe 1 game out of 5 (maybe because I have met very few cavalry armies). I will instead now change to the Warbanner to give the unit an insurance when the dices are against you and it is also useful all the time especially against normal slow infantry units. Also when charged by a cavalry unit they will have a hard time to kill enough executioners to overcome all the rank and warbanner bonus.

FYI I use a unit of 6*4 with full command. Very often I find myself getting the outnumbering bonus thanks to the large unit size. Often I have enough of other interesting units for the opponent to target with magic and missiles.

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Post by Mord. »

Interesting article underway, some cunning tricks to pull to protect and max your executioners effectiveness. Though Da'Gault states the truth: Executioners can still take some damage. But both your points are clear: They die easily, this however I do not resolve using different unit-styles of executioners, but rather by supporting them with faster units such as cold one chariots and dark riders. A unit dark riders taking the flank of a unit that has been charged by executioners will greatly add to combat result. They will add outnumber+flank as well as refusing the enemy any ranks, still some units do not break so quickly so next turn they get the choice of striking against WS4 dark riders or WS5 executioners, the executioners will survive better so if the enemy does not spend attention to them they will receive carnage back, if they do not they will still suffer from a flank attack. Mostly this gets you only that extra model attacking the flank unit and still plenty of attacks coming your way, but by this time you should well have outnumber and rank bonus over your opponent so executioners can still be formidable if they just find the right support.

All this set aside, it is the greater picture that will always matter, executioners (even with character) will be overrun against some opponents and it is for that reason that they are used supporting MSU style units.

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Post by Lordmalusmark »

Wow, im glad my executioners dont suck as much as your guys. Mine (a 20 strong) managed to last a charge from a 20 strong unit of Bloodletters, only to beath them off, then a charge from a unit of 35 marauders with flails, to beat them off. 14 of the little buggers survived because my are exceptionally brilliant.
Thanx for your tactics, im glad i finally know that the charge will benefit my executioners. Im also glad to hear that a flank charge is also a good tactic with executioners. Apart from those huge discoveries, i have toyed with the idea of putting an assassin in my unit to ensure a number of them live long enough to get the attack back. Thoughk i will not used the hand of khaine, i will use the rune, because id rather be able to kill more models for combat res than have one attack taken away if i only manage to wound 2 models due to a measly 4 attacks.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

darkspear wrote:according to our army bk, executioners do not have hand weapon. i doubt we can make the assumption


All models in Warhammer are assumed to have a hand weapon. For further clarification, you can post in the Rules Forum so that people can give you the exact location to find this information.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

I think one of the hidden advantages of Executioners that people fail to realize is their WS5. As Ash pointed out, this means almost everyone but characters hits them on 4+, with crappy troops like Goblins and Skeletons hitting them on 5+ For those who have used the Devoted, you know how great it is to have enemies hitting you on 5+ This protection helps them to survive better than you might think...
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Post by Zentaricai »

I think for the points 11 each they are a good bargin.
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I just wish I used for foot soldiers vs. calvary to make better use of them.
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Post by Lordfoulbane »

Lightning wrote:The major point of it is that it gives +1 to CR for ALL friendly units in combat w/in 6". If you charge 2 units of dark riders into the flanks of the unit that just charged you, then that's an additional +2 to CR along with everything else. The execs won't be going anywhere either considering they're unbreakable.


It doesn't work that way... you only apply +1CR to each separate combat with friendly units within 6" of the banner. Also your BSB is an easy kill if the unit gets charged - even a couple of grunts could do away with him. I think you should playtest the idea and then decide whether its worth 250 pts.
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Post by Lord hajjij »

Good topic, good analysis.

I have been using, and advocating, my über executioner unit for a while now.

13 Executioners w/BSB (hydra banner) and assassin (2hw, manbane, rune of khaine) deployed 7x2 for maximal attacks. I use it to take on my opponent's main combat regiments.

It has done very well for me so far. There are several things I would suggest for using executioners in this role.

1) Do not be over agressive with the unit. It is very fragile. Usually mine will not see combat until turn 4 at the earliest. If you have a charge at the front of the unit one turn, but you can see a possible charge in the flank/rear the next, take your time and get in a better charge. If you are overanxious to get into combat, go play Khorne.

2) Take out support units with the rest of your army. Do not allow this unit to be charged by cavalry, as that will do one of two things: First case scenerio, it will make you reveal your assassin too early, and thus increase the amount of attention the unit gets (see item 3) or it will force you to fight combat and either a)get stuck in combat and have less turns to maneuver around the battlefield, or b)win combat-and perhaps get pulled out in the open by persuit or lose combat and run back towards your lines or be run down. Total control of movement is necessary to use this unit correctly. Exactly why I dont use CoK in the role of main combat unit.

3) Make the executioners LOOK as little of a threat as possible. Make it seem like there are other pieces of the army that are more worth the missle fire. Make the unit relativly small, and without many ranks. 14 Executioners looks far less powerful than 18, deployed 6x3, or 20, deployed 5x4. Most of the time I use either a high sorceress on manticore (opponents just cant NOT shoot at this juicy target with everything they got) or 3 chariots, one of those with a highborn in it, deployed side by side to attract missle/magic fire. Remember, you dont have to reveal your assassin or the fact that your BSB has the hydra banner until it is too late for your opponent.

4) If you get charged by anything that your assassin can not take care of, flee that charge (unless you cant, for example it would bring you off the table or you dont think you can out flee the charge) Things I would not flee from - beast herds, things like eagles, fast cav. Things I would - large monsters (shaggoths, dragons) heavy cav, high elf spearmen, dryads, and the like. If the thing charging you is particulary weak, like goblin wolf riders that will have a hard time hitting you, then I wouldnt even reveal the assassin.

5) If you can get the flank, take it.

6) Keep under cover if possible.

7) Never, unless you have another unit for support, charge or be charged by chosen chaos knights, or knights of khorne. You cannot beat this unit. Never charge a lone über character on foot...a ranked unit of spears is better for this role.

8 ) Use this unit.
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Post by Masterofdarkness »

Quick question

Against heavy armoured troops or high toughness troops. Do you think it is a good idea to go hand weapons with executioners if you have a cauldren of blood close?
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Post by Rautha korhadril »

Quick question

Against heavy armoured troops or high toughness troops. Do you think it is a good idea to go hand weapons with executioners if you have a cauldren of blood close?


Only against really heavily armed AND high T units like Chosen Knights/Warriors. The S5 armor save modifier isn't enough to really worry them, and if you don't break the unit (god forbid), then you can hit back at I5 the next round.
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Post by Cerulaetas »

LordFoulBane, you are very much wrong. In the PDF file online at this link:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammerw ... kelves.pdf

It specifically states it gives the +1 to all friendly dark elf units within 6". It says nothing about seperate combats.

The problem with using the executioners w/ the CoB, is by the time you have to use the hand weapons (2nd round of combat) the CoB no longer has an effect. Also, chaos knights/warriors have initiative 5, so even if you do manage to get those few lucky killing blows, they'll still be striking back and killing some execs.
Ashnari Doomsong wrote:So, you're saying that dwarf ironbreakers in HTH combat are heavy cavalry?
You're wierd...
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