Magic Defense in Various Armies

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Mtucache
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Magic Defense in Various Armies

Post by Mtucache »

Alright... I'm going to make an assumption here. A big one. One that's probably not true, but I'd like to use it as the basis for this discussion... Now, here's the assumption: WHFB players basically boil down to two types, those that go magic-heavy, and those that prefer to just "get by" with magic defense (and hope to get a couple of spells off themselves). Yes, there are those fringe players who eschew magic altogether, or those that demand to be in the middle-ground... but it's basically magic-heavy or magic-lite.... right?

So, without a doubt, there are certain armies that magic-heavy players gravitate towards... that's fine. Almost all armies can be played that way, albeit expensively and with a small army. But, that's not what I'm going to discuss.... what I'm here to talk about is magic-lite.

Now, assuming an "unknown opponent" situation, what kind of magic defense do most magic-light people rely on? With the Dark Elves it's always the Seal of Ghrond and either the a) Scroll Caddy (Level 1 + 2 Scrolls), or b) Magic-Light (2 Sorceresses of various levels + 1/2 Scrolls). So, with this logic, we can assume that the consensus for magic defense is 4/5 Dispel Dice, and 1-2 Scrolls.... still with me? And for just a few points extra, we've got a pretty potent offensive phase as well.

Now, if we expand this argument to include other armies.... suddenly this "4/5DD+1/2Scrolls" standard seems a bit skewed. Given certain magic items available to armies, it suddenly becomes very easy for some armies to reach this "adequate" magic-defense, and even reach a powerful magic phase themselves, for very few points....

Other armies, such as High Elves, Wood Elves, Empire, Chaos, etc (along with us Druchii) have magic items which allow us to reach adequate magic-defense quickly, and on the cheap... leaving other armies in the dust.

Just as an example:
- Dark Elves, with a SoG and 2 Level 2's + Scroll+Dark Star Cloak, come in at 330 for a very respectable 7PD/5DD+1Scroll.
- High Elves weigh in at 315 (with 2L2's+JotD+Anullian), but can go much cheaper with the Loremaster Honour by just knocking that down to 5PD.
- Wood Elves, with 2 Level 2 mages + the WoJ + Dispel scroll, can reach 7PD/5DD+1Scroll for a rediculously small 285 points!

Basically, my own view is that life is good as an Elf. Empire players can get even cheaper defense (with the Ulric list's Priests), but can't generate near the power that elves can. Other armies don't come close... they end up being forced to bring a Lord Level caster, or bringing less than adequate defense.

Now, all this is kind of just rambling... and it doesn't really come to a conclusion... so I'm depending on you guys and your input for some feedback.... to come to a conclusion, so to speak.

What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?
What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?
What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?
What about adequate magic-offense as well?
What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?
How do us Druchii rank on this scale?
Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?
Last edited by Mtucache on Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

usually i only bring the seal and a level 1 scroll caddy with 2 scrolls when playing DE. it is enough to stop the most damaging spells usually. though it kinda chafes to have to spend so many points on the caddy when for instance my gobbos get it for so extremely much cheaper!

as for what armie has the easiers magic def? gobbos easily. with their extra big bosses and dirt cheap shamans they can easily havce 2 caddies for next to nothing. and if they want to go big waa then they got some serious firepower as well.

while my TK of course is somewhat balanced with 2 priests and a Queen usually (along with asorted bound items). i wouldnt call it magic heavy but balanced as the TK needs a stronger magic phase.

is it balanced? no. not when elves who are really fragile and can really be hurt by a lot of spells have to pay so extremely much for defence.
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Post by Underway »

What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?


Well as you know from my previous posts I am attempting to develop a way to go it without magic. However from past experience, the best defence is about 4-5 DD and 2 scrolls IMHO. That gives you enough dice to deal with a magic heavy opponent for a turn or two until you can get in there and start killing casters. However if your list is faster then perhaps less magic defence is needed...

What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?


I think that the HE and Chaos forces have ways to make thier fighty characters mages. This is an excellent and cheap way to increase magical defence. Annuli crystal etc.. Dwarves automatically have 4DD and a number of good anti magic devices like runes of spellbreaking.

Actually a new item for the Von Carstien list is an excellent anti magic one. I can't remember the name but for 35 pts all enemy casters have -1 to the casting rolls. This is certainly an item that I wish the DE had.

What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?


O&G hands down, though all human armies (esp bretts) can quickly increase the DD just because their mages are so damn cheap. VC can also get magic defence easily b/c basically all of their characters are mages...

What about adequate magic-offense as well?


I find for DE adequate magical offence needs at least 7 PD. I usually achieve this by getting two level 2's and the Darkstar cloak. One mage also has the Blackstaff. The Blackstaff is the key as it allows you to nail people with the bomb spells that are so key in the DE list. Works well especially later in the game when most scrolls are used up.

What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?


O&G flat out. No contest here. Those stinking gobbos and their massive magical destruction. It's frankly just brutal to deal with...

How do us Druchii rank on this scale?


In the middle. I think the DE magic phase is saved by two things. One is the +1 to cast. This really comes into its own when using shadow or death lores, esp death. Also it is really annoying for your opponent as more often than not if he uses the same number of dice as you to dispel he fails.

The second is the power of the Dark Magic lore. It is really a nast list of spells and quite devestating when they go off. Most opponents cannot afford to let you get a spell off even if they have tough troops that can normally take a magic missile.

Things have gotten better with the addition of the DOAS but on the dispel side we still have just the basic stuff. Nothing special really. Actually the only lists that don't have the ability to out offensive magic us are the pesky human races, and chaos (except Tzeench).

Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?


I don't belive the system is balanced because you should be able to take a list without mages, and be competative against a list with all mages as characters. This right there shows us that magic is to powerful and game deciding. Idealy there should be a balance that a mix of magic and fighting characters are the best way to go, but the problem comes when a totally tooled up gobbo list with 4 mages can pretty much crush anything very easily. Or the necromancer list can do the same. Nothing can stand in the way of the tooled up magic if you don't have magic yourself.
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Post by Whiteboypolka »

I personally try to eschew magic. In 1000 point games I take the seal and a scroll with a lvl 2, and about the same in 2000 point games. My onlky problem with that so far was against brets. 3 damsels controolled the magic phase.

However my usul opponents don't bring much magic. however I somehow managed to keep an empire list (in 1000 points) with 2 lvl 2's both wih heavens lore, at bay.

I personallly think its balanced, except that dwarves have way too much magical defence almost. While they only get themselves one spell caster (and thats a lord) they can use one item to give themselves 5dd, while you get one less (master rune of balance) plus dispel dice for every runesmith.

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Post by Evilzealot »

In a recent game I was playing against a 2K high elf army. He had around 9-11 Power dice (banner) and I shut out his magic. All I had for defense was a Seal of Ghrond on a noble, a Level 2 Sorceress with 2 scrolls (I only used one too, was saving it for a stronger spell). Anyways, with my 4 DD I was able to stop one spell each round and I actually landed a WoP at a critical moment (although my unit of witch elves failed to kill any of the WoP swordmasters, and were butchered in response).
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Post by Drakken »

Interesting topic of discussion, and something almost a bit overdue I think. We all (or at least most of us) have predetermined ideas we think are good, and this will be a nice place to lay them all out together. So, with that in mind, here I go:


What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?
4-5 Dice, 1-2 Scrolls if you have the speed. If your slower, I think you need in the 5-7 Range, which gets expensive really quickly for most.
What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?
...Mark of Khorne or the Lizzie Spawning? Actually, some of my favorites are the Rod of Power, Diadem of Power, and Black Peripat. It allows for maximum uses of dice, where there are times when many armies have wasted die.
What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?
Khorne or the Ulrician Alternate Empire list. Both can get into the 10s really quickly and without really a lot of effort.
What about adequate magic-offense as well?
Army wise, I'd go High Elves. who have good Lores, cheap items, and quality regiments to support it, or Lizardmen, with Slann centric magic.
What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?
Orcs and Goblins.....not really a contest
How do us Druchii rank on this scale?
I agree with others, somewhere in the middle. We don't do Heavy magic well (too expensive mages, lack of quality bound items, and no real way to generate extra dice outside of characters) and we don't do light magic well (mages are too expensive). Moderate magic seems to be where the Druchii excel...
Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?
Like any system, it has its flaws...it also has its good points. Balanced....
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Post by Loki »

I usually end up playing Tzeentch and Skaven in 3000 pt battles. I find it extremely difficult to cope with their magic phase. 8 dd and 3 scrolls is not enough to deal with 23 pd and enough dd to get rid of my spells. In my opinion both skaven and tzeentch are able to do well offensively and defensively with magic.
We have trouble going magic heavy because we often sacrifice characters that are good in combat. I mean who wants to fight a tooled up chaos lord that is also a lvl 4 mage?

But overall I would say that the system is not so balanced when some armies must sacrifice a lot to be magic heavy while others can have their cake and eat it too.
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Post by Zentaricai »

What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?

--I play against magic heavy armies all the time O&G and Lizardmen. I have to bring a minimum of 4 dispell scrolls and 6 dispell dice to control the 10+ PD magic onslaught long enough to engage them in combat in the 2nd or 3rd turn. the sad thing is--sometimes they don't go heavy magic and I just brought 100-200+ points od magic insurance( to coin an earlier phrase) that I don't end up using....

What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?

---I'd say lizardmen "markings" are perfect.

What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?

---O&G of course but again I cosistantly face heavy magic lizard armies with up to 9 dispell dice in a 2250 point game due to markings, items etc...

What about adequate magic-offense as well?

----I'd have to go with the Heavens magic, non-miscasting power dice generating Slaan for 600+ points

What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?

----O&G hands down--the whole army is a Blue Light special
How do us Druchii rank on this scale?

----Average.


Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?

----Magic is the most unenjoyable part of the game and needs a good overhall. I think it needs a strtegic element to it. I would start out by removing "anywhere on the table" magic
I'd then require all spells to have maximum ranges of 18" and require LoS.
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Post by Mirz do ordas »

Adequate defense:
up to 2k, seal of ghrond and ring of hotek (3DD, no scrolls).

lizard markings indeed.

easiesst defence: HE, cheaper scrolls, honor to give scrolls to a fighter char.

Adequate offense: dunno, magic is mostly supporting for me.

cheapest package
cheapest: O&G but very unreliable due to miscast table/ triggers (miscast when a regiment flees near shaman).

best combined package:
Vamp counts.

druchii ranking:
Dark lore is strong, +1 to cast is good, but we are not the masters of magic we should be according to the fluff. At least we have now a bound spell that is usefull to use, all in all, average.

Is the system balanced?
in a way yes, if everyone should have to have the same unit/ options/ items, then the point of having different races would be moot. but an overhaul of the magic system would be good, it is way to much based on dice rolls now.
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Post by Lewton »

I can't believe nobody has mentioned dwarfs!

4 dispel dice basic. Take a Runesmith with Master Rune of Balance and for one Hero choice and about 130 points you get 6 dispel dice and your opponent has one less power die so in a game under 3000pts your opponent basically has to take magic users for all of their character choices or some magic items just to have as many power dice as you have dispel dice. Slayer cult is even better.

Khorne armies are also very good a shutting down opposing magic.
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Post by Mtucache »

I guess I should have been a little more specific about the game size, but it seems everyone was on pretty much the same page as me with a 2k point-of-view.

I hadn't really considered O&G's extra slot when I was looking at my examples, so that definately swings things a bit. Especially when you consider solely magical defense... they can bring 3 Lvl1s and 3 scrolls for only 240 points, giving them 5DD+3 Scrolls for only 240 points, while still leaving 2 slots open for leadership/combat characters.... I was caught up on the fact they didn't have an item to boost their DD, not thinking that they could simply bring another Shaman.

With all the armies mentioned so far, and given the fact that undead armies are pretty much forced to go magic-heavy, I suppose the system is more balanced than I originally thought....

I still think the Elves have some of the best "magic-lite" options, as they can go with an adequate offense and defense for relatively cheap, and have the access to some of the most powerful items...
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Re: Magic Defense in Various Armies

Post by Seekingone »

Greetings MTUCache!

I've just started collecting DE, played HE a lot before. I also face armies with maxed out magic in 90% of my games. So I'm going to comment on this from the point of view of facing magic-heavy armies (8-10 levels of magic in total).

MTUCache wrote:What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?

This is perhaps the crucial question.

I personally think that DD provide a very poor defence unless you get almost as many DD as your opponent has PD. If you don't have that many DD, then the only thing that really works against a magic-heavy army is a set of scrolls - not less than 4 of them. In other words, if you're facing a magic-heavy army having just a couple of mages, to my experience 4 scrolls are the only thing that gives you a reliable chance to survive first 2-3 turns without taking too much harm. Playing HE I had the best success in anti-magic when I used 2 L1 caddies with 4 scrolls. I tried multitude of other combinations, but they all proved considerably less reliable.

In particular the Annulian Crystal (which you included into a typical "magic-lite" HE combination) proved highly ineffective: when facing about 10 PD, it really makes no difference whether you have 4 or 5 DD.

I also have to metion that the analysis of magic defence cannot be full without considering what Lores you are facing.
Let me explain. The concept of defending with "magit-lite" against "magic-heavy" lies in being very selective about which spells you stop and which you let through. But the very usability of this concept strongly depends on the set of spells you're facing: obviously, it will only work if among all the spells available to your opponent there are only 1 or 2 really dangerous to you.
IMO, such favourable situation is much more likely if your opponent has a vide variety of different magical effects at his disposal. While if most of his spells produce coherent effects, those effects will be much harder to survive. And this strongly depends on the Lore.
For example, Lore of Shadow has just one truly dangerous spell: Unseen Lurker. All the rest spells from this Lore provide a wild mix of effects, most of which can be let through most of the time. On the contrary, in the Lores of Fire and Heavens most spells have coherent effects, which is dealing some kind of direct damage.

Thus, for the sake of example, if your opponent's mages take Lore of Shadow, you mostly have to worry about Lurker, and if you stop it each time you'll be ok. Stopping it most of the times is also quite likely here, because your opponent, unless he's exceptionally lucky, will likely have just 1, at best 2 copies of the Lurker available.
But if your opponent's mages follow Fire or Heavens, you'll likely have 4-5 direct damage spells cast at you each turn, and even if each turn you succeed in stopping 1 of them, it doesn't change the things that much.

The conlusion here is, that going with magic-lite defence produces significantly different results against different armies, and it strongly depends on the Lores available to the opposing army.

What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?


My answer may sound unusual in the context of magic defence :)
IMO, from the general point of view the perfect items for magic-lite armies are the items with bound spells (those wich can be used each turn). I think so (obviously) not because bound spells help to defend against enemy magic. I think so because, after all, each mage has two abilities: to defend against enemy spells and to cast spells himself. And each time you field a mage, you pay points for both abilities. Thus, if you field a mage that can't actually get spells off, you're wasting points. And bound spells provide a best boost to magic offence of a magic-lite army, thus saving you points :)

The second best thing, imo, is anything that enables you to assign magic levels to a fighter-char. Note however that this only works well with with very tough fighters, which can survive without a load of magic armour and talismans. In particular, such ability is at least very risky for any elves. I personaly quit using HE Loremaster honour long ago.

What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?

I'd say Dwarfs. They can get a good defence in form of a load of DD, and then boost it with decent anti-magic items. The best thing however is that their Runesmiths are also decent fighters. Khornate armies might be very good here as well, but I never faced them.

What about adequate magic-offense as well?

Too broad a question IMO :)

However I can say that 8-9 PD + 1 bound spell item is generally enough to get off one spell per turn against most opponents.

What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?

Have to agree with the others: it should be O&G

How do us Druchii rank on this scale?

IMHO just like HE - somewhat below average. Sorceresses are very expencive... And going "magic-lite" and concentrating purely on defence wastes or severely limita the usability of that +1 to cast.


Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?

I feel that there is a certain imbalance in the existing magic system, and it is in a certain predominance of quantity over quality. I mean that the very basic properties of all mages (known spells and generated PD & DD) are the same, and thus it is the quantity of magic levels what matters most. Two armies with equal number of magic levels will be about equal in magic, while an army with more magic levels will likely be stronger. And this is regardless of the actual point costs of mages. This situation may be shifted by heavy use of tricky magic items, but only to some extent, and only if multiple such items are available to one side and are not available to the other.

IMO, having cheaper mages is even more useful for a magic-lite army than for a magic-heavy one. You see, magic-heavy army includes many mages, and even if they are relatively cheap, the character slots already become a restriction of sorts (no Ld and combat support from warrior-chars). But a magic-lite army doesn't rely on magic to gain advantage, so it is crucial to bring as many troops and other stuff as possible. Thus, in such case cheapness of defencive mages seems to be a direct advantage.

That's it... thanks for reading :)
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Post by - human »

I mean that the very basic properties of all mages (known spells and generated PD & DD) are the same, and thus it is the quantity of magic levels what matters most. Two armies with equal number of magic levels will be about equal in magic, while an army with more magic levels will likely be stronger. And this is regardless of the actual point costs of mages


This is very true. 3 lvl2 Skink priests will pretty much even out against 3 lvl2 sorceresses, even though they're cheaper. +1 to cast aside for a second.... they're basically the same.
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Post by Underway »

I feel that there is a certain imbalance in the existing magic system, and it is in a certain predominance of quantity over quality . I mean that the very basic properties of all mages (known spells and generated PD & DD) are the same, and thus it is the quantity of magic levels what matters most. Two armies with equal number of magic levels will be about equal in magic, while an army with more magic levels will likely be stronger. And this is regardless of the actual point costs of mages. This situation may be shifted by heavy use of tricky magic items, but only to some extent, and only if multiple such items are available to one side and are not available to the other.

IMO, having cheaper mages is even more useful for a magic-lite army than for a magic-heavy one. You see, magic-heavy army includes many mages, and even if they are relatively cheap, the character slots already become a restriction of sorts (no Ld and combat support from warrior-chars). But a magic-lite army doesn't rely on magic to gain advantage, so it is crucial to bring as many troops and other stuff as possible. Thus, in such case cheapness of defencive mages seems to be a direct advantage.


This is an excellent thought. Quantity over quality. There should be at some point a leveler, where a good quality mage should be equal to 2 bad quality mages or something similar. The DE +1 to cast is worth in actuallity 50pts if you were to buy it as a magic item, so essentially we get a 20pt discount over an Empire Mage. The problem arrises when an enemy just has so many dispel dice that the +1 is irrelivent. They just throw one more dice.

On equal footing that +1 is deadly, as I have seem in my own battles many times. Therefore quality wins out, but once you just go ahead and add one more 60 pt (or less) mage to the opposing side you get a strong shift away from the Quality mage (DE) to the quantity.

Just to show the math, 60 one empire mage 120 points gets you two empire mages and 95 gets you a level 2 empire mage , 90 gets one lvl 1 sorceress, 180 two sorceresses and 130 gets you a lvl 2. Now who wins out in the magic defence and offence category? Lets just compare one of these, the level 2 sorceress to the two level 1 empire mages.

Sorceress 2 PD, 1 DD +1 to cast, 130 pts
Empire mages 2PD, 2DD, 120 pts

So on an equal footing of essentially only 10 pts different the sorceress loses out badly. Not only is here PD matched by the empire mages but she has a harder time dispelling their spells. Even though it is obvious she is a better QUALITY mage in all respects the Quantity (at 10 less points) out matches her.

The only way she can use her level to here advantage is roll 3 dice to cast where the level ones might not be able to match her with DD.
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Post by Cailil »

Generally I am a magic heavy guy, but I always use the SoG and have a scroll caddy always. However in my last battle I went magic-lite against Savage Orcs: 1 dispell caddy and a noble with BoS & SoG on a DSteed - he got challenged on his 1st charge and died -yes I had some woeful luck with his armour but that was SoG gone. Also the O&G have an item that rebounds any spell cast at the wearer (not 1 use only) and I had to use a dispell scroll in MY 1st magic phase. By turn 2 I had no SoG no Scrolls facing Wurzag the Savage Orc Shaman - I was in a word - decimated! IMO DE do not do magic-lite very well, we're led by the Witch King a Lv4 wizard our Toughness is poor and we have 1 warmachine we need magic. O&G on the oherhand in a weird sort of way have a good magic lite set-up. Goblin Shamen might fear elves but they're too stupid to fear anything else. The Effigy of Gork is also very helpful and O&G are cheap on the otherhand animosity?!?
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Post by Loran »

I usually have 2 Sorceresses, both lvl 2, the Seal of Ghrond and a few Dispel Scrolls... I find that it is enough in a tourney. Still, I've tried a Magic-heavy army and it is quite entertaining to play :D

DE are propably one of the best armies to go Magic-heavy with. With the +1 on casting rolls and Dark Magic DE armies can really command the Magic phase... :twisted:
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Post by Mtucache »

Yeah... I agree with everyone that the Druchii aren't the best race to play magic-defense with... but I don't agree that they can't do magic-lite though.

Playing only defense is very tough, and costs a lot of points... whereas a medium-magic is pretty easy to attain once you've already committed yourself to bringing a sorceress or two.

The SoG is almost always a no-brainer.
Upgrading a scroll-caddy to level two and swapping out a scroll for the DSC is painless.
Adding another Sorceress is tough, but still not over the top in a 2k battle....

I think anywhere from 4-6 levels of magic is entirely appropriate in a 2k battle. Not too expensive, and not overpowering... the magic-defense comes with them automatically (5DD+scrolls).

Yes, the Dark Elves play heavy-magic fairly well, but because of the relatively high cost of our units, it's dicey at best. Once you get to 10+ PD (or more than 8 levels), you're committing close to half your army to the magic phase, and you're going to be cutting two or three units from an already outnumbered army. Against some enemies, the magic can make up for the size handicap, but against others it's very easy to be overwhelmed.
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Post by Ash010110 »

The thing that ppl seem to be forgetting here is synergy with the rest of the army. O&G, Wood elves, Skaven, and Vampires lead the pack b/c their mages are relatively cheap, and their troops are either cheap (O&G, skaven) or really good at capitalizing on the magic (WE, vamps).

Most everyone else is ok b/c their troops are either tough or armored (bretonnia, empire, dwarves, lizards) so they don't NEED as much magic defense to keep their army safe. High elves get a discount on defense (scrolls and loremaster) but dark elves do not. For this reason, I rate dark elves at the low end of magic effectiveness. The army is expensive and fragile. The lores are limited in effect and range. The magic items to help the magic phase are few and far between.

The fact that quantity beats quality in the magic phase (b/c you don't CARE if your mage has WS4 or Ld8 usually) makes elves a poor magic race in general. However, wood and high elves get perks that even out with mad synergy (life lore and tree singing and cheap mages for WE; cheap items + support trinkets + broad lores for HE). More importantly, with a fragile army, this lack is doubly hurtful. I believe that the wood and high elves need these perks so as to counter their cost and low armor. . . dark elves get the Seal of Ghrond :roll: and the overpriced DoomStick (TM).

In my Bret list, I take an L1 and L2 with a scroll each. This gives me the 4DD + 2 DS for 245pts. In addition, these babes are stuffed in my knight units, granting them MR(1), and boosting their ranks. Oh, and they take the Life lore so they don't need to get into danger to be effective. On top of that, I have 2+ armor saves galore and expendable peasants so I can just let magic missile thru. The synergy here is comparable to Rob Lane's all-cav High elf list. . . you don't find that kind of bang-for-your-buck in dark elves. . . but you CAN find such 'deals' in other armies.

Regarding magic defense/offense. Dark elves do moderate magic ok, and light-magic (caddy + SoG) is distasteful as it wastes a power die. L1 and L2 work ok for me as the Darkstar cloak gives 6PD to play with. Using the +1 to cast means that 2-3 spells go off per turn. The only way that dark elves start to make something in the magic phase is to use their army assets to hunt mages. The druchii roster is good at this, with riders, harpies, shades, assassins, and dark pegasii being fast and ferocious. If hunting doesn't happen tho, we are in a bit of trouble.

May peace be with you,
Ash
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Chaos theory
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Post by Chaos theory »

What kind of magic defense do you consider "adequate"?

against my opponents...4 DD and 4 scrolls, maybe 6 DD and 2 or 3 scrolls.

What kind of magic items from other armies do you consider perfect for this task?

lizardman spawning and diadem of power. i've seen a lizardman army with 10 dispel dice, 2 scrolls and only 1 mage.
dwarves also get a good power dice eating rune. imo items like this and the annulian crystal are well worth it as u are getting better than the value of 2 extra dispel dice.
one thing i also like that we don'thave any of are magic resist items. with enough of these(like high elves have) you can save alot ofpoints from mages.

What army do you think has the easiest time bringing magic-defense?

o&g, dwarves, lizardmen. elves are probably LAST on the list...

What about adequate magic-offense as well?

I LOVE empire magic because it is so dirt cheap. 95 pts for a lv 2 mage...same price as a high elf lv 1. empire also has alot of nice bound items (ring of doomfire, orb of thunder, ring of volans) that add the equivilent of alot of power dice to the casting phase.
lizardmen slann obviously have uber offense...the 2nd gen ability is ridiculous.

What army can bring the total package for the cheapest?

empire, o&g

How do us Druchii rank on this scale?

crappy. i hate out mages, the +1 to cast rarely makes a difference, and never makes a 30 pts difference. going magic heavy is a pain because our mages are so expensive...and going scroll caddy is also annoying for the same reason. i agree with you hto, magic light is the way to go. 2 lv 2s with darkstar, a scroll, and maybe the wand.

Is the system really balanced? Or is someone screwed in all this?

i sort of think the elves are. the points cost is a huge factor, and in the end the small perks we get don't really add up..
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Post by Frogboy »

I am not a Elf but a lizard, my idea of what is adequate magic defence:

about 5 to 6 DP and 1/2 scrolls and or a cube of darkness.

If i play a southlands army I can go for a good defence 1 PD/6DD for only 120 points. That is 1 skink priest lvl1 with diadem of power, storing my powerdice to make them dispell dice and the spawning of tepok). This is a extreme cheap defence that will hold against any non-heavy magic army.

When facing a non magic army make it a lvl2 skink priest for 35 points extra and he has 6 power dice 3 for each spell to cast. Making him very flexible. still @ only 155 points.

A second skink shaman can be added for a also very low price and either be a scroll caddy or carry the cube of darkness that can stop even the heaviest magic offence's.

But for the best magical defence, I would say 3 saurus characters with spawning of tepok, without losing any of their fighting power will boost your army magic defence with another 3 DP to a total of 1PD /9DD. And that @ the cost of ONLY 200 points in magic

With my southlands army I used a total of 450 points for magic users. Which generate between 10PD/6DD and 6PD/10DP whatever my chosing and still have a cube of darkness also) Giving me both the power to stop a heavy magic army or to overpower a light magic army

Elves Antimagic is good, Lizzie's is better ;)
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Post by Frogboy »

Just to show the math, 60 one empire mage 120 points gets you two empire mages and 95 gets you a level 2 empire mage , 90 gets one lvl 1 sorceress, 180 two sorceresses and 130 gets you a lvl 2. Now who wins out in the magic defence and offence category? Lets just compare one of these, the level 2 sorceress to the two level 1 empire mages.

Sorceress 2 PD, 1 DD +1 to cast, 130 pts
Empire mages 2PD, 2DD, 120 pts

So on an equal footing of essentially only 10 pts different the sorceress loses out badly. Not only is here PD matched by the empire mages but she has a harder time dispelling their spells. Even though it is obvious she is a better QUALITY mage in all respects the Quantity (at 10 less points) out matches her.

The only way she can use her level to here advantage is roll 3 dice to cast where the level ones might not be able to match her with DD.


You are missing a few parts in the equation that work in druchii advantage:

first remember you only are using 1 heroslot for a close amount of points, that is a advantage because you have more hero slots open for fighters.

Don't forget the always available FREE 2PD/2DD.

This make's the odd's a little less scary: @ 4PD/3DP +1 to cast vs 4PD/4DP.

Now lets say they all use the same lore for instance death. You both get two spells, for simplicity we asume you both get the same spells: steal soul and wind of death. nice average spells. As a druchii you can even if you roll them chose to KEEP the higher spells as you can cast them, 10+ spells for him are not really a option, he can't cast them seriously. if he rolls them he would have to fall back to dark hand of death. in the case of the druchii, rolling the 2 high spells would also result in having to drop one for dark hand of death BUT you can cast dark hand of death on 1PD @ 50/50 change and the other on 3PD.

As the druchii you have a good change of casting BOTH. Which means he must try and dispell both with 2DP each. (or will atleast try to dispell the first with 2DP only) this means he has a low change of dispelling your spell.

In his turn he has a below average change of casting a spell. nor does he even have the choice to use 3 dice to cast it. IF he manages to cast the spells you have 3 DD to dispell it, you don't have to save DD for the other spell as it isn't likely to be cast.

The end result will be that the single lvl2 Druchii wizard WILL outpower the two empire wizards. They will need to fall back to the low level spells to make live a bit difficult for the druchii sorcerer, but that would mean not even that dangerous spells compared to what the druchii would cast.

QUALITY can be better then QUANTITY as I have hopefully just shown. :roll:

I know it is always easier to say, it isn't fair our models are overpriced, we don't stand a change, but then stop for a second and work it fully through. not just stop at the point where you think: this is the proof we are mistreated by the GW.

PS i hope this make's any sence, otherwise I have to explain it a bit further.
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Seekingone
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Post by Seekingone »

dark elves get the Seal of Ghrond and the overpriced DoomStick (TM).


If it's the Wand of the Kharaidon you're speaking about, then I strongly disagree. It's a good item for a mobile DE army. Overall, a nice bound spell at PL4 is never bad. I like the wand more than the similar HE item.

It's important to realise that the great thing about PL4 is that dispelling it on 1 DD is far from guaranteed. So each time your opponent would be facing a tougher decision - either to waste 2 DD, or to face a considerable risk of actually getting those S5 hits.
May Hoeth guide our ways...
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Post by Da'ghault »

Ash010110 wrote:The thing that ppl seem to be forgetting here is synergy with the rest of the army. O&G, Wood elves, Skaven, and Vampires lead the pack b/c their mages are relatively cheap, and their troops are either cheap (O&G, skaven) or really good at capitalizing on the magic (WE, vamps).

Most everyone else is ok b/c their troops are either tough or armored (bretonnia, empire, dwarves, lizards) so they don't NEED as much magic defense to keep their army safe. High elves get a discount on defense (scrolls and loremaster) but dark elves do not. For this reason, I rate dark elves at the low end of magic effectiveness. The army is expensive and fragile. The lores are limited in effect and range. The magic items to help the magic phase are few and far between.

The fact that quantity beats quality in the magic phase (b/c you don't CARE if your mage has WS4 or Ld8 usually) makes elves a poor magic race in general. However, wood and high elves get perks that even out with mad synergy (life lore and tree singing and cheap mages for WE; cheap items + support trinkets + broad lores for HE). More importantly, with a fragile army, this lack is doubly hurtful. I believe that the wood and high elves need these perks so as to counter their cost and low armor. . . dark elves get the Seal of Ghrond :roll: and the overpriced DoomStick (TM).

In my Bret list, I take an L1 and L2 with a scroll each. This gives me the 4DD + 2 DS for 245pts. In addition, these babes are stuffed in my knight units, granting them MR(1), and boosting their ranks. Oh, and they take the Life lore so they don't need to get into danger to be effective. On top of that, I have 2+ armor saves galore and expendable peasants so I can just let magic missile thru. The synergy here is comparable to Rob Lane's all-cav High elf list. . . you don't find that kind of bang-for-your-buck in dark elves. . . but you CAN find such 'deals' in other armies.

Regarding magic defense/offense. Dark elves do moderate magic ok, and light-magic (caddy + SoG) is distasteful as it wastes a power die. L1 and L2 work ok for me as the Darkstar cloak gives 6PD to play with. Using the +1 to cast means that 2-3 spells go off per turn. The only way that dark elves start to make something in the magic phase is to use their army assets to hunt mages. The druchii roster is good at this, with riders, harpies, shades, assassins, and dark pegasii being fast and ferocious. If hunting doesn't happen tho, we are in a bit of trouble.

May peace be with you,
Ash



Agree with everything in this post.

As I am always playing light to medium I am using a high body count with expendable troops as O&G and combine this with aggressive mage assassination.

The use of a lvl2 sorceress with a dispel scroll and black staff both gives enough defense and usable offensive power even against overwhelming magic. I would never pay 140 pts for 2 scrolls and an extra dispel dice.
Maybe something for the charge of the stupid brigade group though as they can stand up to the magical barrage the first turn and then be in hth in the second turn.

I believe DE have to use the right trinkets at the right mage combination in order to somewhat negate our drawbacks and amplify our strength.
Black staff to cast with four dice +1 when using one sorceress.
When using two lvl2 the cloak and tome will most likely give you the right spells and enough dice to cast 3 spells with +1 to cast. And a scroll of course. Maybe even throw in the zap wand, but all this cost.

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Smokey
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Post by Smokey »

Excellent thread MTUCache!
On a scale from 1-10 I'd give the Druchii magic abilities a 4. Yes, quality CAN of course beat quantity, but more often than not, quantity has the day. The +1 to cast is IMO better when NOT using Dark Lore as it has too high casting values. Death is better, and of course the Lore of Slaanesh!

If the +1 was optional, for say 40 p, it would be great (it would not come out of the item allowance). The High Sorcs should always have it, it makes sense. However I doubt GW want to make it this way.
OR DE sorcs should have +1 ONLY when using Dark Lore, and then be a LOT cheaper. Hmm...I have to think more about this.
Cheers
/Smokey
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Lord hajjij
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Post by Lord hajjij »

I disagree with some of the stuff knicking the effect of the Druchii magic phase. With the +1 to cast and the game-controlling nature of Dark Magic, a 2lv2 Sorceress army can realiably cast 2 spells of the 10-12 power level variety per turn. A high sorceress can eaisly cast spell in the 13-16 range...and add to her another lesser mage, for 9 PD, you are talking 3 spells/turn with 10-12 power level, with the option of having fewer higher powered spells, or a plethera of lesser ones.

This means that the opponent is going to have to use scrolls or somewhere around 4-5 DD to reliably take down your spells. You need to CAST the spell before your opponent has to use dice/scroll to dispel it. If you fail to cast one spell a turn, then the chances of having your other one get through is greatly decreased. This is where the Druchii magic phase excels...with a moderate magic phase we can throw out 2 dangerous spells/turn, forcing the opponent to dispel or face the consequences...and with Dark, and to a lesser extent shadow magic, those can be dire. Far more dire then say a magic missle, for most enemy troops (dominion, black horror, soul stealer, WoP, unseen lurker, doom and darkness...I could go on...)

There are also other subtleties like very effective mounts, having high leadership with a mage lord, (problem for say, O&G or skaven) and being extremly maneaverable even on foot that make DE magic users, IMHO, pretty darn good.
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