The Black Guard (updated 14/6/06)

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The Black Guard (updated 14/6/06)

Post by Keledron »

This is long so get a cup of tea. Also it has been edited from the original to take into account comments and queries raised in the following two pages of post.

The Black Guard

In this article I will try to present the pros and cons of the Black Guard and some of the tactical approaches to using them in your games of Warhammer. These are mainly my opinions and whilst not perfect are all things I’ve learnt or tried at the most competitive level and which work for me. I have also included a number of elements that others have been kind enough to contribute from their experiences and are extracted from the following posts. I hope the ideas presented will inspire you see how you can employ the Black Guard in your own games, giving both you and your opponent new challenges.

Thanks to:
Druchii.net members Archdukechocula, fr0, Losliath and Sha’a’laaar


I’ll start by outlining what I consider the pro’s and con’s of the Black Guard.

Pro’s
An above average infantry movement rate; high weapon skill; very high initiative; a reasonably good weapon in the halberd (+1 strength); high Leadership and stubborn. Combined these make the Black Guard capable of fighting and winning a protracted combats against most opponents, they very rarely break and will almost always strike first in subsequent rounds of combat.

Con’s
Average basic strength (S3), average toughness (T3), poor armour save (5+) and high cost at 16pts, you can have two basic warriors for every one Black Guard.

Eternal hatred
You will notice I have not included this special rule in either category as this can be both a pro point; you get to re-roll to hit which is handy when you’re almost always going first (unless charged) and a con; you must pursue a broken opponent. Making it possible for an experienced opponent to lure your expensive troops into a weak position on the table where they can be destroyed or by-passed.

Odd Ball Stuff
One other side effect of having a Black Guard unit is that they can be a distraction, often becoming the focus of your opponent’s attention to the exclusion of more important units within your list. This is something you can use to your advantage especially verses less experienced opponents.

Building the Unit
Knowing this how do I go about building an effective Black Guard unit? Firstly you have to decide how you are primarily going to use it. The times a Black Guard unit really shine are when they manage to engage multiple enemy units so a biggish unit or wide frontage seems like a good approach. Will the Black Guard form the centre of your battle line where their stubbornness can be almost guaranteed to keep the line strong (the Tar Pit) or will you use them in a more attacking role? Utilising their hatred and above average strength compared to other Dark Elf infantry units to get them to advance rapidly, in predominantly infantry based armies.

I always find having an idea of what I want a unit to do in my army makes for getting the numbers and support items right. There’s no point spending 480 points on Black Guard (24) if 192 points (12) will get the job done. Also you should be wary of spending too many points on a unit with only one tactical role so always consider what else you can do with your Black Guard if plan A is not going to work . So let us look at the possible make up of both types of unit.

The line holders, in this unit what we are looking for is a unit that will stand its ground against all foes until you can deliver a decisive counter attack, for this I favour a narrow frontage reducing enemy attacks and maximising combat resolution whilst keeping the unit cost as low as possible 16 deployed 4x4 with a standard will suffice in this role this will give you +4 combat resolution before any dice are rolled a good starting position. The reason I like this type of unit to have good static CR is that it will be going first next round; so your stubbornness holds the charge and you now have a chance to break your opponents.

An alternative defensive strategy is to make the unit wide and try to engage several enemy units at once in this instance the standard is not necessary and you may well be able to make the unit as few as 12 models. This is harder to employ but is the Black Guards strongest ploy.

Champions are always worth considering as well though especially if facing an enemy with multiple attacks, or who suffer from frenzy even if you concede 5 overkill wounds in a challenge this is better than loosing 5 extra models thanks to being stubborn. If you include a champion it is almost always worth while issuing a challenge - you never know an opponent may decline allowing you to remove the most threatening enemy model from the combat at least for a while.

To prevent being defeated simply by numbers the Dread Banner makes a useful addition to the unit meaning they will not automatically flee if beaten by fear causers and it can even cause your opponent to fail to charge home allowing you to charge them instead. If you know your enemy before hand you can tailor your banner selection to suit, a simple standard could prove to be just as useful and a lot cheaper.

The attacking role here the Black Guard are better off in a wide formation to maximise your chances of wounding and breaking the enemy on the charge, I personally favour a six wide unit with full command for this, but you will need at least 14 Black Guard deployed 5/5/4 to be effective, ideally you want 22 to 24. In this role there are many choices of magic banner you could give the unit and all of the following are worth considering: The Dread Banner again is good as you can auto break opponents but does make your unit very expensive and is probably best kept for bigger games or the defensive role. The Banner of Murder allows you to spring a charge when seeming out of range and increase your chances of catching any bait units who flee from you, but is probably better suited to being placed on a pure strike unit, like Executioners. Finally there is the War Banner this benefits from a relatively low cost and will compensate well if you lack of ranks costing just 25pts compared to the 64pts of an extra rank of Black Guard. Though again this is not the ideal place for this banner.

Supporting the Black Guard
So know you have formed your unit and selected the preferrred way you will attempt to use it . Now its time to look at how to support your 200+ points of key unit. There are two ways to look at this you can bolster the fighting capacity of the Black Guard themselves or you can use supporting units.

Bolstering the unit, beyond a magic banner which I have already discussed, a noble with a powerful magic weapon is an option but will only generate 1 more hit than a trooper anyway on average, a sorceress is obviously a bad choice this leaves the much maligned assassin, and he is my favoured choice for the line holder unit where you can maximise his strikes first rule to reduce the enemies chances of actually hurting your precious Black Guard and increase your chance of winning the combat. Give him an additional hand weapon and Killing Blow and he even scares a Chaos Lord thanks to killing blow. Adding characters to the Black Guard though is an expensive option and in sub 2000 point games is a high risk strategy.

In the attacking role I prefer not to put characters in the unit but to use them as separate support elements.

The number one choice of support unit for your Black Guard should be a Battle Standard Bearer you can never over estimate the usefulness of re-rolling Ld9 stubborn break tests. I like mine mounted in a chariot where he can threaten the flanks of the enemy with his Unit Strength of 5 and he receives additional +2 armour save (no bad thing) and finally you can deliver a crushing hit to anyone locked in combat with your Black Guard unit.

In an attacking role the combination of chariot and Black Guard is almost irresistible especially if you equip the Battle Standard Bearer with the Death Mask to force terror tests as well. If you can get him into the side of a unit then swift victory is almost certain. The Crimson Death or a more modest halberd is fine are worthy of consideration. I never like my Elves to strike last so I tend not to use great weapons or even the Gauntlet of Power. Even on a bad day and you roll poorly the stubborn Black Guard can save your very valuable BSB from getting run down if he flees from combat.

Manticore riders and hydra units can also perform a similar role both cause terror and the Manticore has the advantage of a long flying charge if the enemy flee from you due to panic or terror. Another advantage is that neither of these suffers from stupidity. The only draw backs are that both are large and cost equally as many points as the chariot mounted battle standard. Being large does however make it much easier to position these units and the hydra in particular can be used as a missile screen for your Black Guard. However, even if you take either of these you still really should include a Battle Standard Bearer.

If you only have a small unit of Black Guard or are facing an enemy with multiple attacks per model we have spearmen a unit of 16 deployed 4x4 which can be used to make a countering flank charge with the Black Guard locked in combat with the additional ranks and removing the enemies ranks will be decisive. To use this takes some practice but can be just as deadly as any of the others and the unit can have many other uses in the game.

Lastly there are good old Dark Riders 5 simply armed with spears can be used to deliver flank/rear charges against the Black Guard’s opponents, one word of caution here is that if your opponent has plenty of armour or multiple attacks the Dark Rider are unlikely to survive and you will probably loose both units but versus low Toughness, low armour or low Leadership foes then Dark Riders will prove up to the job and cost a whole lot less than the alternatives.

Deployment and Tactics
So we’ve got our Black Guard and have selected a way in which we want to employ them, we’ve considered some of the alternative support choices for them and now we can turn to how to actually deploy them on the battle field.

I use three basic tactical deployment plans when I use my Black Guard, Option 1 the Crescent, Option 2 the Castle and Option 3 the Refused Flank. Which of these you select as your initial deployment plan partly relies on the terrain, partly your opponent and partly your support choices. But in all three options the Black Guard will have a clear initial role in your plan.

I’m not going to be too specific here about what to do against certain types of opponent that’s for you to find out but I’m going to talk in general terms about types of opponent roughly categorised into two groups, combat and shooting and how each type of opponent can be countered or not by the three Black Guard tactical plans.

Tactical Option 1
The Crescent, this is a simple formation with the Black Guard deployed in the centre of your battle line either as a spear head with the wings extending away and back or as the back stop unit with the wings extending away and forward of them.

An important point with this type deployment is that you do not necessarily need to be spread right across the table you can set these formations up equally well on one side of the table.

So how does this work. In the leading role the Black Guard close as quickly as possible with the enemy and once you have pinned their main combat unit in place you deliver a massive counter strike with your support units. Most often in this formation it is all about the counter attack as the enemy will generally get the opportunity to charge your Black Guard if they dare.
But be ware your opponent will be looking to avoid this happening so careful movement and placement of troops is essential to create the situation where this will happen – don’t let the battle by-pass you Black Guard for you will surely loose.

The Hydra/Manticore combination makes for good support units in this army or even a Cauldron of Blood and A Witch Elf unit. Your own missile troops should be used to push support units away from the target unit. The rest of your army can be made up of smaller units of skirmishers and chariots for your characters to ride in. Corsairs make an excellent missile screen to advance behind with their Sea Dragon Cloaks and a couple of Dark Rider units will fill out your core requirement. A BSB and Manticore will only leave you one character slot in 2000 points so a Level 3 High sorceress makes an ideal general giving plenty of magical defence if needed and delivering a fair amount of offence.

If you have opted to go for the reverse crescent formation to start with then the key is to funnel the enemy toward the Black Guard using your missile troops, scouts and flyers to heard the enemy toward your Black Guard unit waiting ready to crush them with a devastating charge hopefully over running into fresh victims giving you the initiative as you are now charging on the enemies turn.
The first of these strategies is more useful against shooting armies whilst the second I favour against combat opponents where I want to maximise the amount of shooting damage I can cause their main units before entering combat late in the game.


Tactical Option 2
The Castle this is a more defensive strategy with this formation you are looking for a well defended area on the table and Reaper Bolt Throwers make ideal support choices along with large amounts of crossbow armed warriors an assassin can also be good in this deployment.

The Black Guard are deployed between your Reaper Bolt Thrower’s and screened by warriors. An added bonus of this is it will make enemy flyers less likely to try and attack your Reaper Bolt Thrower’s and allow you to have many a shooting phase. Once the enemy have closed with your line the screen can flee their charge away allowing the Black Guard to move forward and attack in a similar manner to the reverse crescent.

This tactic is effective against slow moving enemies and combat armies but should be avoided in games against shooting armies.


Tactical Option 3
The Refused Flank is a simple tactical ploy where you lead the attack down one flank of the table turning the enemies flank and rolling down their line, whilst normally a tactic associated with Cold One Knight focussed armies the Black Guard can fulfil this role.

In this set up we are looking to close quickly with the enemy my favoured support units here are again a Manticore rider (probably a lord) and the hydra though Reaper Bolt Thrower’s can be used as an anchor unit for your flank but static units versus some armies are not such a good choice (Undead particularly). Your army will also need to contain either chariots or a small Cold One Knight unit. This is to me the weakest of the three basic options but it can be used given the right terrain set up and opponent.

This works best against shooting opponents as it overloads one side of the table reducing the amount of fire they can bring to bear against your units making it impossible to stop your charge happening preferably led by the Black Guard.

So now you know as much or even more about using the Black Guard in your games as me, yes they are an expensive unit but they are a highly flexible unit bringing a different dimension to playing Dark Elves and different challenges. They won’t always be a suitable choice in your list but if you fancy giving them a try I hope this has given you some ideas about how they can be used.

Kel
Last edited by Keledron on Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Kel,

A superb article, very well written, and very rewarding to read. A lot to think about there for sure. Hmm,maybe we will see somemore BG now(Maybe I'll have to make a list or 3;)). Good stuff mate, glad you did it (its certainly a hall of fame article that is for sure).

I'll have aponder and get back to you if I can think of any questions or anything else, but it seems pretty comprehensive. The site may well benefit from your knowledge of other units. I know your DR stuff is a tad "off the wall".

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Post by Sha'a'alaar »

Good to see some serious thoughts on the BG rather than the usual dismissive "too expensive" etc etc.

Only comment I'd add is that my experience is that 18 is proving a good number to use. This gives the 6 wide frontage with 2 additional ranks. OK, you lose the extra rank bonus but, points-wise there is a worthwhile saving. It also provides sufficient numbers to allow the unit to take some casualties before they get to fight and still be effective.

cheers
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Post by Keledron »

Ras we'll see this was a lot of work to write but maybe.....
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Post by Joey_boy »

Keledron: Some nice stuff here. Have you thought about using the BG as mobile terrain? Or just to cut of an opponents army. when I do this I mostly use a combination of 16BG with the banner of murder and a BSB chariots hanging back 10" covering the flank. This alows you to creat a wall of stubbor troops that can block of half of the enamy army while fight the other half. And if anyone trys to flank the BG to get thru the US5 BSB chariot is standing redy to suport with a flank charge and re-roles.

I'v often used this against hord armys like O&G, Skaven and such. Works very well and with some Dark Riders running around you can really threten to crush one flank while thretening and holding off the other.

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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Nice post. I think you really hit the points well. I use my Black Guard with a BSB in a chariot just as you suggest.

One point where I disagree with you is that I (almost) always deploy my Black Guard 5 or 6 wide and never in a 4x4 formation. Because they are stubborn and because I use a BSB, I'm not really worried about them breaking and I would rather have the opportunity for more attacks. The only time this would not hold true is when facing fear-causing opponents that could outnumber the Black Guard. In that case, I generally want to go for the sure thing and maximize static combat resolution.
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Post by Narathiel »

Some excellent thoughts, as you said before.

I agree with Dyvim, fielding the BG in 2x5 or 2x6 is pretty good too.
The bsb on COC is a great idea and I liked how you explained everything to do with black guard so thoroughly.

I have some idea you might want to include in your article:
AS BG are specialised in holding a big unit up shadow magic can really benefit them getting that extra 8 for charging knights, causing fear without needing the banner, etc.
That is why you might also watn to consider using the banner of murder, to be a more effetive tar-pit

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Post by Beastmaster kurlan »

very nice article and a good read, i dont agree with everything you said but thats only ot be expected. for all players who dont know much about black guard i strongly suggest taking this on board. definately for the hall of fame, well done kel
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Post by Saraphas »

SA i normally play against Bretonians i generally use a unit of 18 (6x3) with banner of murder,assassin with blade of ruin and a sorcerress with shadow magic nearby. the idea is to hopefully get the charge on those pesky knights, kill a few hopefully and break him. he flees i pursue if i catch him hooray if not next turn he rallies and we repeat the process.

If things go wrong and he gets the charge than my assasin can dish out the punishment when the brets realise their armour has turned to candy floss.

I have used this tactic thrice and twice it worked extremely well and nine knights of the realm were killed (along with the paladin but that was in a challenge).

however when it failed what happened was:
black guard charge(8"from magic 3" from banner 10" from charge)assasin kills one BG kill 1 =( his paladin his paladin slaps three guards to hell, he outnumbers,three kills and 2 ranks, i have 2 kills and 2 ranks, I take my test laughing at how i'm going to pass and guess what...a 12!
i flee he pursues i roll 8 for flee he rolls 13. 500 points gone.
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Post by Lpgs »

Saraphas


Thats we're the Chariot bsb comes in :)
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Post by Rasputinii »

:lol: It looks like it was. Still its not like you have anything better to do ;).

One thing I will ask, just to be devils advocate is what about small units? You have covered the possibilities created by big units, but what about wee little units of 10 or 12? Any comment on such units, or are they so crap they aren't worth a mention ;)...

My other question for you mate, is can you make a unit that does both roles? Can you play the unit in the two roles, utalising the Dredd Banner say, adpating to line breaking and line holder per opposition you encouter (thinking specificly about tournies here), ror does the make up of the army depend to definitely on the role of the BG?

To those saying never go 4 wide my answer is simple. If you are using them as a holding troop and playing armies that can kill elves rather easily then minimising the frontage is a very good idea indeed. By minimising frontage your minimise looses and preserve static CR, which mean when the Flank charge comes you have a better chance of winning, and by winning by more. It all depends on caim and set up, oh and opposition.

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Post by General kala »

RasputinII wrote:You have covered the possibilities created by big units, but what about wee little units of 10 or 12?
Actually, I have recently added in 12 BG with Banner of Murder to my current configuration. I've played two games with it so far and I must say that it is a nasty surprise for my opponents. I've been running them in a refused flank in concert with two Chariots (and I'm now going to add in a BSB - great idea guys). The small BG unit leaps out and sticks to an enemy unit while the Chariots casually line up for the coup de grace. I'm thinking about upgrading this team to the Hydra Banner CoK hammer.

I think that the beauty of this relies on the fact that most players don't expect a fast tar pit.
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Post by Losliath »

Well my question is in comparison are the BG worth it to take as a rare choice when you could field 2 RBT instead? I play against Woodelves and several other opponents with many Fear causing units. I've thought about taking BG as a choice but against the unbits that cause Fear I just don't see it being worth it. However I think the article is very well written and their strengths outlined very well. I would say that as an addition to the article it might be nice to see some recomendations on opponents they are most effective against and ones they're less likely to be effective on.
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Post by Benji »

give them the dread banner
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Post by Archdukechocula »

I personally maintain that their only use in a Druchii list is as a tar pit. Everything else they can do, some other unit in our arsenal can do better, for much cheaper. Offensively, executioners are far superior, for a not insiginificant price decrease, and are more reliable since they are not forced to pursue. Defensively, warriors using HW and Shield are better, particularly when you take cost into consideration. The only thing black guard really excel at relative to the rest of our list is at being a tarpit.

It makes no sense whatsoever to dump 500+ points into blackguard to make them dangerous offensively, alla your assassin suggestion. At that point, you are engaging in about the most dangerous "all eggs in one basket" scenario I can think of. If that unit, which is now horrendously expensive, fails a panic test, or is nuked off the map by magic, you are entirely lost. If that unit is lead around the nose, you are screwed. Hell, just two units of goblins dispatched to delay you and you are screwed. All it takes is 80 points of goblins, and your units is as good as gone from the game. You will break them, be forced to chase them for a turn, and then the next unit of goblins sacrafices itself towards the same end. 80 points just took a 500 point unit out of the game. Rat slaves can do the job just as well. Zombies can do it even better. Some delaying tactics via marchblocking thrown into the mix, and it will really ruin your day.

Warbanner? Does it make sense to throw money down the drain by giving them the extra static CR of a warbanner? Not as far as I can figure. A war banner much better used on units whose aim it is to win combat through static resolution, such as ranked warriors, or corsairs. Warbanners are even better in units of execs for that matter, since the goal of execs is to break a unit quickly.

Using them in a combo charge with a chariot? Might as well used ranked warriors, a unit of execs, witch elves, or corsairs. They will do the job nearly as well, or in certain cases better, and they will do it for far less points.

As for the banner of murder, it makes far more sense to put that in a unit of execs, or some other offensive delivery unit that really needs the charge. Sure, it might be a surprise to get charged by a 400 point unit of blackguards, but then, you just spent 400 points on a unit of blackguard. If that unit gets nuked off the field or shot to death, you will likely want to shoot yourself to death. To me that seems a nonsensical strategic gamble. It costs nearly as much as a lord on a dragon, and is far less manueverable, less dangerous offensively, and easier to kill.

Don't get me wrong, I think black guard have their uses. Or at least a use. But a long post doesn't exonerate them of their rather severe weaknesses. They cost too much for what they do. People say that a lot for a reason. It's true.

Sure all that you are saying sounds good in the abstract, but as soon as you play these things in the field, you will consistently fail to earn the worth of the blackguard. The only thing they do that justifies their cost even remotely is act as a tar pit in the Druchii list. That's it. Everything else they are far outclassed by something in the list.

Now, the real problem with this fact is that an opponent can simply deny them that roll. They can throw a ranked high armour unit at the blackguard and laugh as their 200 point unit delays your 400 point unit for 4 turns while exchanging roughly equal casualties. All a savvy opponent has to do to neutralize them is engage them with one moderately resiliant unit, and they have a significant points advantage on the rest of the table. And in the end, your blackguard are doing something a unit of warriors could have been doing for half the price.

The times a blackguard shine are when they manage to engage multiple enemy units un combat, preferablly three. At that point, they are delaying enough enemy units to justify their cost. The problem remains however that this requires the opponent falling into this trap. Any enemy who sees this happen once will know not to repeat the mistake, which means this is a tactic with limited long term viability. It only remains useful because very few DE players ever bother to field blackguard, so the rarity of the unit is about the only thing that preserves their usefullness.

Against smart opponents, blackguard will rarely, if ever earn their points back. All these things sound nifty in theory, but the on the ground reality is that they do not meet basic cost/benefit criteria. That is the bottom line.
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Post by Sha'a'alaar »

Archdukechocula wrote:Offensively, executioners are far superior, for a not insiginificant price decrease, and are more reliable since they are not forced to pursue. Defensively, warriors using HW and Shield are better, particularly when you take cost into consideration. The only thing black guard really excel at relative to the rest of our list is at being a tarpit.
I'd have to say that this isn't a cut and dried issue and there is no evidence to say they are FAR superior.. Yes, Execs are stronger on the charge but suffer MORE if they don't win the combat in the first round. The going last due to great weapons really opens them up to taking unnecessary wounds. The re-rolls for the BG balances the +1S that the Execs get which, in my opinion, can result in more wounds. The stubborn can nullify the extra save that the warriors get.

It makes no sense whatsoever to dump 500+ points into blackguard to make them dangerous offensively, alla your assassin suggestion.
Let's put the assassin idea to one side. Apart from that, I don't think people are proposing 500 point units here. My 18 BG with Banner of Murder is less than 400 points. OK, not cheap but not as much as many units you can see, including the lord on dragon.

since the goal of execs is to break a unit quickly.
I don't see why the goal of your BG would be any different.

As for the banner of murder, it makes far more sense to put that in a unit of execs, or some other offensive delivery unit that really needs the charge.
Why?

Sure, it might be a surprise to get charged by a 400 point unit of
blackguards, but then, you just spent 400 points on a unit of blackguard. If that unit gets nuked off the field or shot to death, you will likely want to shoot yourself to death.
Any unit can be nuked off the table or shot to death, that isn't a reason for not taking them, it is the reason to deploy, move and use them intelligently.

Sure all that you are saying sounds good in the abstract, but as soon as you play these things in the field, you will consistently fail to earn the worth of the blackguard.
Again I have to disagree. My experience is showing that they can consistently perform well and earn their points back. Also, there is more to that equation than a simple is x > y. If the way you use your BG disrupts your opponents plan and forces him to react to you, they may not kill more points than they cost but their worth can easily be greater.

Now, the real problem with this fact is that an opponent can simply deny them that roll. They can throw a ranked high armour unit at the blackguard and laugh as their 200 point unit delays your 400 point unit for 4 turns while exchanging roughly equal casualties. All a savvy opponent has to do to neutralize them is engage them with one moderately resiliant unit, and they have a significant points advantage on the rest of the table. And in the end, your blackguard are doing something a unit of warriors could have been doing for half the price.
So? Any VC-type unit is going to be a pain for any DE unit. It is once again up to you to play them without getting caught in this. Also, if they do get caught they will benefit from their stubborn when ordinary warriors would easily be fleeing off the table.


At first reading I thought this was quite a constructive rebuttal of the ideas here for the BG. However, what becomes clear is that you don't (or refuse to) see BG as "offensive", feeling that this is the role for Execs. Part of the recent coverage about BG is to try and break people of this preconceived notion and use them differently.

OK, maybe warriors are better defensively and Execs better offensively (though I don't agree with that) but neither can do the other role so well. A unit of BG can happily play both roles and that is what gives them the extra value and flexibility.

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Post by Archdukechocula »

sha'a'alaar wrote:
OK, maybe warriors are better defensively and Execs better offensively (though I don't agree with that) but neither can do the other role so well. A unit of BG can happily play both roles and that is what gives them the extra value and flexibility.


Ah, but for double the points. I would rather have a unit of execs and a unit of warriors than one unit of blakguard. That way I can be doing both roles in two different places at the same time, rather than having to sacrafice one role for another on any given turn.

Flexibility is great, I dont deny that. I love Dark Riders and our Warriors for that very reason. I just dont expect to pay the cost of two other units for the marginal benefit. I would rather just have two different units that are better at their respective roles than one unit for nearly the same price that is marginal at best in either role. Again, the only thing black guard are superior at is being a tarpit.
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Post by Drakmar »

I have to agree w/ Archduke on this one.
He--as we all do--would like to see the BG perform other roles well, but that just isn't how it works.
You look at their statline w/ eternal hatred and you think: good solid offensive unit.
Then you look at the fact that they are stubborn. And you see the point cost.

Now, ask yourself. If you want a stubborn unit to use as a tarpit, why would you want them to have any combat prowess?
Why would you want an offensive unit to be stubborn when you plan to win combat?
On one hand, people support MSU tactics, and on the other they support the uses of BG as a versatile offenseive/defensive unit--doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why use MSU if your just going to waste so much points on one unit?

And while BG are mobile, they definately aren't fast. They can be manipulated like nothing. If you get them to run backwards they will be out of the game for awhile. If I was using my DE list against someone w/ a BG hammer I'd laugh to myself, knowing full well that the unit would do almost nothing.
Hammers are fine, but they shouldn't be so easily manipulated. And they shouldn't be on foot. And anvils are nice, but they shouldn't also be your hammer. It's a point-sink.

DEWs are better for the role. You really don't need the BG to win combats. Offensively, executioners really are better (this cannot be argued if you look at the point cost). And the thing is, I don't even find executioners good enough for the job.

While the discussion on BG is interesting, a unit of 12 w/ champ is as much as I'd ever spend on a tarpit.

Using the BG as an offensive unit is more wishful thinking than anything.
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Post by Keledron »

Thanks to all those who have read this and those that have made comment.

For the benefit of all.
I didn't spend several weeks putting it together on the basis of this unit are a better choice than that unit it was designed and written to show how this particular unit can be used if you wish to include it in your list, if you don't then great but if you do I hope this has given you a few ideas as to what it can do, rather than the usual rather negative press the unit gets when people include it.

Remember Warhammer is your hobby and you should choose what you like in your army and not what anybody else wants you to take. It's great to get other peoples ideas and suggestions about a list you may be developing but don't just pick units because everybody else takes them.

@Ras - small units for my money are as you summised a waste of a) points and b) a rare slot. If you take a Black Guard unit it needs to be big enough to survive long enough to fulfill your plans for it small units for me of 10 or 12 just don't have enough staying power to be a valid choice in my armies. But if they work for others then great cause variety is what it's all about.

As to the actual tactical use of the unit once the game has started then yes any type of strategy can be used. The only thing that really affects this is the unit composition if you want to go offensive then Full command is a fairly obvious choice in the unit build but is of less value when going for the holding role where a simpler standard bearer upgrade would suffice and would save points for more troops. Similarly if you start with the defencive set up the unit will be marginally less effective if you then switch to offence.

@Losliath, to give an answer to the question you pose vs Wood Elves generally they have most difficulty dealing with ranked units so maybe a stubborn S4 ranked unit would be a good bet for a change and would force your regular opponents into a radical tactical rethink. But as I've already said the aim wasn't to write a comparative article (waste of effort in such a variable game as warhammer in my view) but to give ideas about what this unit can do.

@Archduke an interesting post but not truely relavent to mine (see above comments) but one thought, if you want to win games then you need to eliminate the enemies most valuable units, so if I spend 500pts on a Black Guard unit you will have to deal with it at some point if you want to win the game, just something to think about when suggesting your opponent will simply ignore it.

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Post by Archdukechocula »

Keledron wrote:Remember Warhammer is your hobby and you should choose what you like in your army and not what anybody else wants you to take. It's great to get other peoples ideas and suggestions about a list you may be developing but don't just pick units because everybody else takes them.


Granted. But I think in all fairness, this is about making a crappy unit perform, and shouldn't be phrased in such a way as to suggest the unit is actually worthwhile. In most cases, it isn't. I respect the idea of thinking of ways to make the unit useable for the fluff inclined, as obviously the unit has fluff applications. I also respect the use of BG for a tactical challenge. I have a unit myself, and I use em every once in awhile just for the hell of it. What I contest is that they are a genuinely viable unit from a tactical or strategic perspective. They are the warhammer equivalent of the WW2 fighter-bomber. Sure they sound good on paper, but in the end, they perform each role so marginally, and cost so much more to be able to fullfill both roles, that it is simply better to have a bomber and a fighter doing their roles well for about the same cost as the single fighter-bomber. If you can afford to throw the money around, it might make sense, but in Warhammer, where you and your opponent have the same points to play with, you dont really have that liberty.


@Archduke an interesting post but not truely relavent to mine (see above comments) but one thought, if you want to win games then you need to eliminate the enemies most valuable units, so if I spend 500pts on a Black Guard unit you will have to deal with it at some point if you want to win the game, just something to think about when suggesting your opponent will simply ignore it.


Of course, you realize that, using your thinking, the opponent taking your blackguard out of the game would be the act of eliminating your most valuable unit. By the time you sink 350+ into the unit, you have kind of produced a situation that is, at best, the equivalent to removing your opponents queen by sacraficing your queen. You didn't net any benefit by doing so unless there is a very specific tactical situation in which this action benefits you. Of course, it is just as likely that your opponent was the one who gained that benefit by taking your blackguard out of the game.

The whole idea of neutralizing an oponnents uber unit only makes sense if it doesnt require you sacraficing your own uber unit to accomplish the goal. That just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Now, doing this might make sense with a small cheap unit of blackguard, in which case you may be delaying more points than you are investing in the black guard, and I see that as a credible application. It still requires your opponent being susceptible to such deception however, which again limits the tactics use to unskilled or moderately skilled opponents. A clever opponent needs to be fooled with more elaborate, less obvious tricks.

Once your blackguard is your uber unit, ignoring it is a viable option, because they just took your uber unit out of the game, which was your supposed goal with the blackguard. Ironic, but true.
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Post by Losliath »

I'd have to agree with ArchDuke overall on this witha few exceptions that I think have been overlooked on both sides. The BG do something that help with combats that others don't which is help take a bit of chance out of the combat by being stubborn, if you charge with Execs. and it goes badly you could be breaking in the same turn you charge; chances of this happening with the BG are significally less.

THe other thing BG do I've noticed is that they are a huge distraction, and take the heat off of things like Execs. which would be a prime target in place of the BG. I use Execs. a lot and they always seem to draw most of the enemy fire when they are the largest target there, but if I take something else that's more tempting to shoot at they do their job a lot better.

For the cost taken to be used as what the stat line is, I'd say they're not worth it with some exception, unless they're a sacrificial lamb. If they were a special choice instead of a rare I could see their cost justified, but as a rare when there are lower cost units or bolt throwers I'd say no.

The big disapointment for me is that they are such nice models, I love painting and have been painting DE for longer than I've been playing them, and they were one of the reasons I chose DE was because they looked so nice. I'm thinking about buying a box just to have and paint, more than anything.
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Post by Fr0 »

Nice post Keledron. It was actually pleasant to read a lighter view on BG, and their uses. I'm sure you've influenced at least a couple people to reconsider, and try them. :)

I've yet to field them (as actual models :oops:) but my proxy match with 'em, was unsuccessful. I used them wrong, and it could also be karma but what the hey!

I think that BG are a very good unit, and as everyone knows they are just a little too pricey, although just a couple pts more than Shades. I think costing 1-2pts less each, and taking a special slot as 0-1 in a standard army would be great, though it's possible they'd be fielded even less often because we all seem to have a chubby for those special slots.

The unit holds great potential, and I hope some day their cost is justified by what they yield. It seems like there are a lot of mixed reviews, but seems to me that the people that are posting have used them, and to some degree of success! The negative reviews seem to be more theory than anything, though Mr Cereal does raise very valid points.

Much like the nearly entire HE 0-1 Elites, they seem to be there for fluff, rather than actual game play.

I guess its all a matter of preference, and I can't see myself fielding them any time soon, but I may to try it out. I don't have too much imput on them.

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Post by Keledron »

As it seems several of you want a view on whether the Black Guiard are worth taking then here's mine.

On an individual basis they are not cost effective, are over priced relatively easy to out play and die just as quickly as warriors.

BUT

If you build a list around a Black Guard unit, you construct the list properly to support it with the right elements and have a couple of tactical plans for using it on the table top you will have an army that plays effectively in most situations.

For the record I used such a list in the UKGT 2003/4 Season played 12 games lost 4, won 5 and drew 3 not a bad record verses the best palyers in the world so whilst a Black Guard army may not win you tournamnets it will win you games and makes a pleasant change from the regular style lists we see so many of.

This is the Battle Reps from the GT Final
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=17100&highlight=

And this is the list
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=15450&highlight=
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Post by The liger »

It's nice to see some constructive and intuitive thinking on the BG Keledron, and I think some of your ideas are quite good, but personally, I would robut against others.

Personally for me, BG don't work so well as an offensive unit. On the attack, Witches can do better, and even against high armoured foes, execs, COKs or COCs can kill more (for a cheaper cost, and usually have other benifits such as speed or fear). It is very true that they are very good at prolonged combats (especially compared to those listed above) but do you even want to get into battles of attrition? I think the best unit for BG to go up against in an offensive role, would be a high Toughness/AS unit, that is hard to break (stubborn or unbreakable mainly). Units such as Ironbreakers or perhaps 2+ sv chaos warriors, with mark of chaos Undivided etc. Here, it is true that even pure kills are not as effective, and so you need multiple units giving strong attacks, or the BG. The Black Guard, even then, however, have the problem that against these foes, they will also probably be losing quite a few models too, perhaps more than they are killing. Therefore, you could take larger units, but then the points cost grows, and eventually you do not want your BG unit to be more expensive than the enemy's unit, if you are going to lose most of it anyway.

Now onto the defense. For me, there are two main defensive units in our army - BG and Warriors. BG have stubborn, warriors have a 4+ save, and are cheap so Static CR is easy to build up. To me, I see two ways of winning an average combat: Kills and CR. Neither units are particularly good at killing (compared to the other units), so you need to go against units that are hard to kill, or can kill you more easily. Basically, for me, it comes down to - Things with low Static CR, hit the spearmen, where their high save and large CR of 5 can even go so far as to beat charging cavalry (even chosen chaos knights!) Meanwhile, BG are good for engaging units that have Static CR. The fact is, the warriors' advantage is that they have 5 CR from the beginning, but against things that also have this, the fight comes down to kills, where the warriors usually lose out due to low strength and toughness. The BG on the other hand, don't care about CR, and so can hold, even when losing by 9! So, we need a unit that's hard to kill (or can outcharge our own killers), and also has static CR. To me, I see large units of 12-16 cavalry fitting these criteria quite, as they have the large CR of 5, and can also outcharge us, and kill/break our own killers. There is also the added advantage that most of these units are less effective after the first round, which is when BG start to excel. I think either a large unit or a small unit could hold up this cavalry charge, depending on how powerful the cavalry is, and whether it can actually kill lots very quickly. Perhaps a unit of 14, arranged 2X7 would be best, and I think it would probably still be quite cheap. On this subject, I think that BG could also be good for holding up monsters or nasty fast things, where you don't have anything that can outcharge the opponent's unit. Here, however, larger numbers will probably be a very good thing, as the power of monsters and characters will likely take down the unit rather quickly.

And finally, on to numbers. Usually, I would go for a small unit of 10 or 12. Perhaps now, I'm going to start thinking about slightly larger units. To me, they are still a slight tarpit, or something that can hold up the types of units said above. Against big killers therefore, they need to be able to keep alive for long enough. I think 10 is good if you want a cheap unit, 12 perhaps for some added survivability, and 14 or 16 if you need it. There is always the option of stringing them out in a long line, to hold up multiple units, and here, I think perhaps even 18 is best, as it means that each unit still has to kill about 6 to break out of the combat. I would always take a champion, for that nice extra attack, and more importantly taking characters out of combat in challenges, as overkill doesn't matter to BG. Standards are less important, as I don't see BG winning on CR much, and musos are only useful if you draw with a large skelleton block, but generally aren't needed.

So, in conclusion, I think that BG are not there to kill units, but are there to hold them up. If they can do this for 3 turns, that's enough for you to go against the rest of the army. Preferably, you want them to hold up more points than they are worth, so multiple unit holdup is a good tactic. Here, I would string a large BG unit across at least 2, but preferably 3 units, which in total, should cost more than the BG. Then either you charge them, they charge you, or you stand at a stalemate, while your army hits theirs. I think that this type of unit can hold the centreground in a refused flank tactic, as Kel said, holding their middle of the battleline, blocking their opposite flank, and letting your whole army hit their one remaining flank.
Also, cavalry holdup makes use of their stubborn (as well as the possible new halberd rules) to hold up units that the killers can't kill, and the warriors can't hold due to a negation of Static CR. You could even combine both tactics against a Bretonnian army, to hold up 3 lance formations with a large unit of BG, while you rush around their flank and rear!

Therefore, I think now I may try out BG. Their uses are quite specialised, and they are expensive and overpriced, but that's not to say that they are useless. We can see how they can be used, and so I think it's not a case of making a rubbish unit perform, but a case of making a specialised unit perform. Perhaps I'm also just trying to find a use for them, but personally, I think we should try them out, as they are such beautiful models, it seems a waste not to at least try to find uses for them.
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Post by Archdukechocula »

The Blade Liger wrote:Therefore, I think now I may try out BG. Their uses are quite specialised, and they are expensive and overpriced, but that's not to say that they are useless. We can see how they can be used, and so I think it's not a case of making a rubbish unit perform, but a case of making a specialised unit perform. Perhaps I'm also just trying to find a use for them, but personally, I think we should try them out, as they are such beautiful models, it seems a waste not to at least try to find uses for them.


Which is what I already said. Again, I pointed out, their one and only use is as a tar pit. In other words, they are meant to hold up an uber unit, or multiple units at once. That is the only thing they do that is unique relative to the rest of the list. But again, as I've said, the problem remains that any skilled opponent is aware of this fact, and will simply stick a single crappy unit into the BG, therefore nullifying their single purpose. They are good against mediocre opponents, no question about it, because then the tarpit tactic is reasonably effective.

However, any opponent with a brain will not charge multiple units into them, because they will know that doing so is pointless against a stubborn unit. Simply put, their single useful role, that of the tarpit, can be nullified by an intelligent opponent. Watch as two units of slave rats are lined up to delay you for four tuns, and force you into a pursuit after combat. 80 points just took 300+ out of the game. Same goes for any cheap block troops. In addition, moderately priced high armour or high toughness units can take BG out of the game. A small unit of dwarves can take them out for 3 turns while exchanging roughly equal casualties. To have a 300+ point unit so easily nullified strikes me as a considerable weakness.

I've played against BG twice, and both times I reamed the guy using them. He wasn't stupid, I just knew the unit and knew how to neutralize them. In one game, I had a single unit of 16 warriors using HW and Shield held them up for 3 turns, and actually killed several of them. A 143 point unit took his 360 point unit out of the game, and caused enough casualties when combined with shooting to take him to less than half strength. Not only did I make more points than him, I took a supposedly dangerous unit completely out of the game with little effort on my part, and all it took was not being so stupid as to charge two or three units at the BG.
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