The Black Guard (updated 14/6/06)

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Asgoth
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Post by Asgoth »

Ive always used BG since the beginning, almost always use them in 2k battles.

That BSB in chariot thing, wich keledron pointed out, is very usefull in deed, never used it like that before, better try that tactic out.

Very interesting article indeed.
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Post by Nonus »

Finally! I’ve waited quite a while when someone works hard to get Black Guards good points out. Thank you Keledron. My army is still 500p small but now I can start thinking to field them not only to my book case but also in the game. And for those who gave a piece of advice to change BG for small costs and maybe more effective units, I’m wondering why? How this serves the tactical uses of BG? No, it doesn’t…
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Post by Malekith's psychologist »

Sorry guys, although i have BG myself and have fielded them a couple of times, any decent opponent will try to kill these guys asap. Against any army that has at least goblins with rice blowpipes BG will get shot 2 pieces, any other army will just send units which problaby cost less than half the BG and tie them up making ur 300+ pts unit useless.........too expensive, and i'd rather use the slot for RbT.
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Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Saraphas »

same here altough black guard are awsome they do use up a valuble slot and depending on who you play i will almost always use Rbt, however Bg have theri uses against armies that have high costing units, eg brets,lizzies and chaos as thye will have a hard time tying them up with low cost units.
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Post by Benji »

Archdukechocula wrote: All it takes is 80 points of goblins, and your units is as good as gone from the game. You will break them, be forced to chase them for a turn, and then the next unit of goblins sacrafices itself towards the same end. 80 points just took a 500 point unit out of the game. Rat slaves can do the job just as well.



this in't too difficult to avoid, you can use your own troops to direct the way you will persue, ultimatly you will end up inthe same place but you will have killed 2 units along the way
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Post by Archdukechocula »

benji wrote:
Archdukechocula wrote: All it takes is 80 points of goblins, and your units is as good as gone from the game. You will break them, be forced to chase them for a turn, and then the next unit of goblins sacrafices itself towards the same end. 80 points just took a 500 point unit out of the game. Rat slaves can do the job just as well.



this in't too difficult to avoid, you can use your own troops to direct the way you will persue, ultimatly you will end up inthe same place but you will have killed 2 units along the way


I'm not sure I follow. The opponent has just as much control over that as you do, if not more. Plus, I am suggesting they place one unit behind the other to charge you after you finish pursuing. Granted, in this case, the fear will be a liability for goblins, but I used goblins as a random example. Skaven slaves, men at arms, empire infantry, zombies, and a wide variety of units can do much the same. Overall, for such an expensive unit, BG just have too many vulnerabilities, any decent opponent will be able to exploit one or two of them enough to end up taking away any benefits the BG might provide.

For the record, I used to be fairly supportive of BG as a unit, although I still recommended a one point cost decrease. However, in the past three months I played twice against a DE opponent, a good one at that, and he fielded BG both times. Both times I had a major victory, largely because I completely controlled his BG, and they formed such a significant chunk of his army and his battle plan that he had a real hard time recovering. Those two games really showed me just how vulnerable BG are. While I had considerable success the times I fielded them, it was against opponents who were mediocre, or who werent real familiar with BG. Since I was familiar with BG, I was able to completely control the unit.

Simply put, they arent maneuverable enough (particularly when you add in eternal hatred), have too low of an armour save, and cost too much. If it were just one, or even two of those problems, I think they would be worthwhile. However, all three of those vulnerabilities added together, and your opponent is bound to be able to exploit one or two of them enough to take the unit out of the game for all intents and purpose.

And I absolutely do not advocate crafting a list around blackguard. I think crafting any list around a single unit is near universally a bad idea, fluff aside. To have an entire battle plan dependent upon a single unit is to see an entire battle plan crumble when something unexpected happens to said unit. Face anything unexpected, and it all falls apart. Adaptability is key to any competitive list (unbalanced uber units aside).
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Post by Benji »

Archdukechocula wrote:
I'm not sure I follow. The opponent has just as much control over that as you do, if not more. Plus, I am suggesting they place one unit behind the other to charge you after you finish pursuing.


what i mean is if you have a unit infront of your black guard positioned so when you win combat you will have to persue to expose your flank you can dictate the direction your enemy will flee by moving another unit alongside/behind your enemy. they will then have to flee away from the black guard but avoid your other unit, do you follow? it's difficult to explain without a diagram.
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Post by Jamesfazzolari »

I understand what your saying Benji, but I feel that Archduke's point is still stronger - the fact you have limited control over such an expensive unit s just ridiculous.

Even if it only comes up once in ten battles, the fact such an expensive unit can go AWOL over a 30 point chaos hound unit is just crazy, and really makes BG, in my opinion, worthless.

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Post by Benji »

jamesfazzolari wrote:the fact you have limited control over such an expensive unit is just ridiculous.



lol, best drop your witch elves then.
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Post by Jamesfazzolari »

well benji, my witch elves cost me 156 points a unit - so that isnt that big a deal. However, at say, 400 points + banner for a unit of BG, that is something completely different....

furthermore; my list isn't meant to be OTT competitive, the witches are partly theme, partly the models are kick ass and partly for gaming. So they stay :D

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Post by Malekith's psychologist »

AND!....witch elves don't take that precioussssss RbT slot....
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Post by Sha'a'alaar »

Interestingly, amongst all the talk about "offensive" units no-one seems to have mentioned that BG have a high initiative.

Now I know that execs are going last with their gws but, in a combat that lasts more than one round, you're going to want that higher initiative.

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Post by Jamesfazzolari »

No one is saying that BG aren't "good", what we are saying is that they are not points efficient, at least not as efficient compared to what you could get for those 400 points.

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Post by Keledron »

jamesfazzolari wrote: what we are saying is that they are not points efficient, at least not as efficient compared to what you could get for those 400 points.


That's a highly subjective view point. One I personally don't believe as if you want to extrapolate that debate to the ultimate end point you would only take warriors. Makes the game a bit dull. Oddly enough I got a very similar reaction to the piece on the Cauldron of Blood but surprising how many lists and armies I've seen round the tournament circuits that now include them.

A lot of the negative comment about Black Guard units are purely abstract debate as are most of the remarks about almost all the other elite infantry choices you ever see posted. I tried very carefully to avoid this in what I posted originally so give it a break and look at what I wrote for what it was - simply some of the ways in which you can include a Black Guard unit in your army if you so desire to do so.

Well that my final post in this thread I've said more than enough to get people thinking about things and thanks to all who have taken time to read through it and who have in some cases posted some very long, well though out and time consuming remarks.

All the best

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Post by Archdukechocula »

Keledron wrote:
jamesfazzolari wrote: what we are saying is that they are not points efficient, at least not as efficient compared to what you could get for those 400 points.


That's a highly subjective view point. One I personally don't believe as if you want to extrapolate that debate to the ultimate end point you would only take warriors. Makes the game a bit dull. Oddly enough I got a very similar reaction to the piece on the Cauldron of Blood but surprising how many lists and armies I've seen round the tournament circuits that now include them.


Subjective? It's simple math. Can the unit impact the game enough to earn their points worth or more. To say there is a certain amount of ambiguity in certain cases is fair (you can't just weigh kills, as a units presence can significantly impact a game), but to come to the conclusion that a cost benefit analysis would indicate only warriors should be purchased would be more indicitive of a really poorly thought out analysis. If all units had toughness 3, movement 4, and no armour, that might be a reasonable assertion. However, given that execs are far better against high toughness high armour units, Dark Riders are far superior as flankers, CoK are far superior as hammer units, and so on and so forth, the statement would be completely erroneous.

From a cost benefit analysis, you have to analysis a units strengths against its weaknesses, and then compare it to other units in the army. Every unit in the army has a unique role that it does best. The unique role for blackguards in a DE list is that of the tarpit. If you aren't going to use it as a tar pit, then there are very clearly other units that do everything else BG can do, and they can do it better for less cost. It is not worth spending points on versatility for one unit if you can get that versatility in two units for the same price, and when those two units will perform their respective roles better, and will be useable in two locations at once. These things are very important to consider and can be broken down in a fair analytical manner. To call this type of analysis "subjective" is a cop out. Your analysis of the BG isn't exactly objective, yet that doesn't diminish the strength of many of your points. The point is to provide a variety of viewpoints and to compare a variety of analytical considerations so that each individual can come to their own conclusion. Clearly you don't agree with me. That's fine. However, I see no reason to take it so personally that I disagree, and actually bother to back up the points of my disagreement with a solid argument. The fact that you just dismiss the criticisms out of hand instead of addressing the points directly doesn't really add anything meaningful.

A lot of the negative comment about Black Guard units are purely abstract debate as are most of the remarks about almost all the other elite infantry choices you ever see posted. [/b][/color]


That's rather presumptuous. I for one am not talking in the abstract, and have given a few concrete examples. It's also a hypocritical statement, as your whole original post is in the abstract. The fact is, I have used and continue to use black guard with relative frequency. I use them more than I use RBTs. But, I use them only in friendly play, because I find they just arent worth it against skilled opponents. This isnt some abstract thought. this is something that has been demonstrated to me, and which I have demonstrated to my opponents again and again in real play. To call my criticisms "abstract" is just plain wrong. They are based on concrete experience.

I tried very carefully to avoid this in what I posted originally so give it a break and look at what I wrote for what it was - simply some of the ways in which you can include a Black Guard unit in your army if you so desire to do so.


Well then what difference does it make to you that I took the time to highlight some of the weaknesses? It would be pretty stupid fielding a unit in ignorance of it's vulnerabilities. Like I said, I respect the use of the unit for its own sake, I simply highlighted the things to consider, both to determine if you even want to field them, and what to be aware of if you do. It's not some personal slight on you that I bothered to elaborate on the units weaknesses. I just didn't think your post was sufficiently insightful in terms of the units weaknesses, and I think weaknesses are important to consider, especially if you are going to field a unit. After all, you need to be aware of the weaknesses to minimize them.
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Post by Keledron »

@archdukechocula,

I was going to pmail this but on reflection it would be better off here as I'm more than old enough to take a bit of well reasoned critism.

Sorry if you felt some of my remarks were aimed directly at yourself but if I make remarks about individual posts I always try to direct my remark at the poster either using a quote or @<name> openers. As with my somewhat glib remark to @jamesfazzolari someone I had the good fortune to have meet recently in person, so I'm sure he'll understand more what I meant than the words I actually used, which admittedly were a little poorly chosen.

Your contribution to the Black Guard item has been very well constructed and as I acknowledged, though more indirectly than I could have, it has obviously taken a considerable time and thought to put in. For which I (and hopefully everyone else) am most greatful.

It makes a pleasant change to see some constructive and well thought through replies which are backed up by some real gaming experience.

Overall you've highlighted some very good points most of which I'd generally agree with and have addressed an area of my original post which I had obviously failed to highlight suficiently, namely the weaknesses of the unit, more attention could have been paid in this area. I find it quite dificult to write how I would go about mitigating some of those weaknesses in general terms as what I would do, would depend highly on the circumstances within a game.

I'm going to adjust my original post placing more emphasis on your analysis of the units strengths and weaknesses as well as remarks from others. Hopefully I'll produce an article, taking into account all aspects of the Black Guard as a choice within your army.

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Post by Underway »

Good post Kel. I do remember our discussions in that 03/04 season on BG and I had much sucess with them around here as well.

The key to BG is to build an army around them that can still function without them. For example here is my army from the 03/04 season.

16 BG Dread Banner
2x 16 Spears
12 RXB with Mus and Stnd
5 Shades
5 Harpies
2x 5 DR with RXB
Lvl 2 and Lvl 1
2x COC with Nobles in them (one is BSB)

Looks like a fairly simple battle line right?? Well here is the key. The BG unit can hold anything or charge anything and do some serious damage. Combined with a co-charge from a chariot every unit I charged in that season broke, often autobreak due to outnumber from fear (US 5 chariot often put me over the top).

If the BG were charged they would most often hold and the chariots would countercharge wiping the unit off the table. I used the BG both offensively and defensively in those games.

The spear units were there to protect the flanks of the BG and chariots and could be combined with the chariots for their own devestating charges thanks to the +3 rank bonus.

And also the RXB with shields were very handy in fighting enemy fast cav, flyers etc... as they could rank up to +2 ranks plus a standard.

By placing the BG in the middle of my battle line, flanked by at least one chariot I basically said to my opponents "there it is, deal with it". I forced them to react to it. If they ignored it they would regret it. If they shot it then the spears could still hit home with the chariots. The fact is the BG solidified the battle line and were the one unit that I could rely upon to take a charge from cavalry as well.

No other unit I can think of in the DE list will hold a battle line togther better than the BG. It's not their tar pit nature it's the fact that they can GIVE AND RECIEVE a charge, as well as stay around every combat holding the line until help arrives or the enemy is mopped up. Execs, WE, spearmen all fail to do this effectively, RXB's with shields are better but just not as good due to the lack of stubborn.

As for having them be fed a 150 pt infantry unit or distracting them with fast cav or skirmishers well that's what magic and shooting are for. To eliminate or reduce these threats. And the COC are there to ensure they are not held up for to long by a more significant threat.

Personally thats how I use BG and I came to these conclusions based upon sharing ideas with Kel on the subject and my own battle experience. I wouldn't dismiss his ideas so readily just because BG are "expensive" and "easily distracted". A unit on its own is nothing. It's how it operates in relation to the rest of the army that makes it worthwile.
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