Sticky of the Month December- Army List Tactical Analysis

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Sticky of the Month December- Army List Tactical Analysis

Post by Druchii77 »

In an effort to promote free thinking and to encourage unique army lists as well as unorthodox tactics, the mods of the army list forum are going to put together a monthly sticky Tactical Army List Analysis of the Month. This sticky gives a Druchii army build that isn’t optimized using the normally used items. It will also give an opposing list. We would like the members of this forum to discuss how the army could best be used in the situation given, what they would expect from their list (the DE one) and their opponents’ lists.

This month’s sticky tactical situation is listed below.

Druchii Army list

Characters:
Dreadlord- general, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, caledor’s bane, ring of darkness, riding a cold one
Master- BSB, soul render, armor of darkness
Sorceress- lvl. 2, dark star cloak, dispel scroll
Sorceress- lvl. 2, focus familiar, dispel scroll

Core:
20 Warriors- full command, shields
10 Crossbowmen- shield, musician
5 Dark Riders- musician
5 Dark Riders- crossbows, musician
5 harpies

Special:
5 Cold one Knights- full command, standard of slaughter
1 Chariot
15 Black Guard- full command, banner of murder

Rare:
Hydra
2 Bolt Throwers

Darkstar sorceress rolls- chill wind and word of pain
Focus familiar sorceress rolls- blade wind and chill wind



Lizardmen Army-
Chracters:
4th Gen Slaan- general, BSB, plaque of tepok, 2x scrolls, bane head
Skink Priest- lvl. 2, diadem of power
Scar Veteran- Mark of Quetzl, Mark of Old Ones, light armor, great weapon, enchanted shield
Scar Veteran- Mark of Quetzl, Mark of Itzl, light armor, shield, Piranha Blade, riding a cold one

Core:
10 Skinks-blowpipes
10 Skinks-blowpipes
10 Skinks-scouts, javelin and shield
15 Saurus Warriors- standard, musician
15 Saurus Warriors- standard, musician

Special:
3 Kroxigor
3 Terradons-champion

Rare:
Stegadon
3 Salamander Hunting Packs

The Slaan rolls: fireball, flaming head, unseen lurker, steed of shadows, and rule of burning iron.
The skins rolls: portent of far

Image
The green circles are forests, the brown rectangles are hills and the grey shape is the impassable that blocks line of sight.

Enemy Deployment:

One the Dark Elves’ left flank, the Salamanders deploy behind the impassable terrain with a unit of Saurus in between them and the forest. The jaguar scar-vet joins them. The unit of scouts deploys behind the impassable outside the deployment zone. The slaan deploys behind the wood. The skink priest and skink retinue deploy in the forest in front of the slaan. Another saurus unit deploys on the right side of the forest with the mounted scar-vet. Next to them on the right is the unit of kroxigor. The stegadon holds the line on the right of the kroxigor. On the far right, The remaining skins deploy on the hill with the terradons behind.

Tactical situation:

-How do you deploy your army?
-What overall strategy/tactics would you try to implement to overcome this army?
-What strengths does the Druchii build have that are advantageous when facing this Lizardmen list?
-What would you expect of your opponent?
-How would you seek to counter their tactics in order to neutralize threats?
-What do you think the biggest Lizardmen threats are to the Druchii army?
Last edited by Druchii77 on Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Questions --

1) are the brown squares buildings that can be deployed in?
2) have the DE casters roled for spells? If not, I'm taking Dark to get Chillwind with both casters.
3) does the gray impassable terrain block line of sight?

Even before knowing the anwers to these questions I will say that the biggest threat in the Lizardman army is the unit of 3 slamanders since the can literally nuke one unit per turn if within range. They are a HUGE threat to the expensive Black Guard. My number 1 priority is dealing with the salamanders before they can spit flaming death all over my army. That means positioning the bolt thowers so they can see and shoot at the slamander pack from turn 1.
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Post by Druchii77 »

Edited to reflect the answers to your questions, Dyvim.
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Post by Blackfel »

Here's my solution to this tactical question that you've posed. First my setup.

Image

Normally I would never put two bolt throwers this close to each other, but in this situation I think they'll be fine. Assuming the Dark Elves win the first turn, the initial move will look like this:

Image

Now the initial moves take a few things for granted. 1) Both the Cold One Chariot and the Cold One Knights pass their Stupidity test. 2) The Hydra can see over the Impassable Terrain (if not, simply switch the placement of the Hydra and the Harpies and move the Hydra to the right of the terrain.

The Lizardmen are set up in a classic Citadel Defense/Refused Flank position, and they will hold their position in order to give the Slann a few rounds to soften up the Dark Elves with spells. To combat this you have to be aggressive. Taking out the Skink Scouts is key to this: as long as they are left alone, they will march block the army until the cows come home. Fly the harpies off of the hill behind the skinks, and move the hydra as far forward as he can get, making sure to be within 6" of the Skinks for the Terror test during his turn. Although it's true that the Lizardman player will be taking his leadership tests on 3d6, Skinks only have a leadership of 5, and they are too far from the Slann to take advantage of his leadership. You should have a good chance of Panicking the unit and destroying them outright. The Bolt Throwers should spend this round trying to soften up the unit of Saurus Warriors closest to the Cold One Knights. Everyone else rushes forward as fast as they can, except the Crossbowmen who move 5" and fire at the Kroxigor. If you can, have the hydra breath on the skinks to try and generate a panic test. If they flee, they'll run through the unit of 5 Harpies and will be destroyed instantly.

The Lizardman player will no doubt be salivating at the prospect of opening up with the Salamanders on the Cold One Knights, but the Ring of Darkness and the good armor save will go a long way toward mitigating any damage they might cause.

Your goal is to work your way through his units to get to the Slann. The Cold Ones will be in combat at the start of the second turn, and although they will be unsupported they should be able to crush the Salamanders.

Anyway, I like the idea of this post, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say as well!

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Post by Calisson »

Great initiative!
Anyway, I like the idea of this post, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say as well!

The idea of such Tactical Analysis is really good. It is going to challenge us commander-in-chief-apprentices.
Consider me a big fan of your thread, at least as reader.


I am not sure, however, about the exact intent.


Army List or Tactics?
The thread is in the Druchii Army List forum.
After having read the first post, I am wondering why such thread is not in the Druchii tactics forum.
Sure, the title includes both "Army list" and "Tactical analysis" so probably anyone would hesitate in which forum it belongs.

But my understanding is that it is not the army list that must be discussed and improved, as it is done usually in the AL forum. In fact, the army list seems completely unmovable.

Adversely, the explanation below shows clearly an intention to develop tactics and no intention to optimize the list.
In an effort to promote free thinking and to encourage unique army lists as well as unorthodox tactics, the mods of the army list forum are going to put together a monthly sticky Tactical Army List Analysis of the Month. This sticky gives a Druchii army build that isn’t optimized using the normally used items. It will also give an opposing list. We would like the members of this forum to discuss how the army could best be used in the situation given, what they would expect from their list (the DE one) and their opponents’ lists.
Is my understanding of what belongs to each forum inaccurate?

Well, anyway, the two fora are closely linked. It is not by chance that the D.R.A.I.C.H., in the tactical forum, has its biggest part dedicated to army building and army lists.


Mostly Army List?
So, is it your intention, after some discussions, to summarize the strenghts and the drawbacks of the proposed list, in order to determine what should be modified in the list?
That would be the "solution of the problem", posted at the end of the month.

Or is your goal just to improve the understanding of the mechanics of making an army list, i.e. if you take this kind of unit, see what you can do with it, then next time you build an army list with it, you'll know what is it for?

For these reasons, I would understand the rationale for posting in the AL forum.


Mostly Tactics?
On the other hand, all the analysis that are expected probably belong, IMHO, to the tactics forum.

Getting to know the strenghts and weaknesses of the opponent's list is also something I would expect to see in the tactics forum.

If someone ever comes up with some kind of unorthodox, innovative tactics, sure it will have to be reflected in the tactics forum.
Do you think it will trigger a new thread there? At least, for sure, a link into the D.R.A.I.C.H.

You have here an outstanding idea that is definitely going to improve the tactical skills of all your readers. Compliments.

So are you intending to exchange a lot with the other forum?


Missing data.
As I mentioned, I intend to read, more than to participate.
The reason is that even if I endeavour to understand the subtelties of the Dark Elves, I have very little proficiency (if any) in most other armies.
I sure could analyse the druchii side, but I don't understand half of the other side as I hardly ever play against LM and I only had once a chance to read their AB.

I may not be the only one in this situation.

Could someone tell me what means:
plaque of tepok, bane head, diadem of power, Scar Veteran, Mark of Quetzl, Mark of Old Ones, Mark of Itzl, Piranha Blade, cold one (same as ours?), Saurus, Kroxigor, Terradons, Stegadon, Salamander Hunting Packs?

See how helpless I am.
Of course, I could read the AB in my favorite shop, and try and grab the essence of each unit from a hasty view.
Or I could try and borrow it from a friend for 2 or 3 weeks (hoping the friend will remain so).
Or I could search the LM website which link is provided gracefully by D.net.
That would take ages.
I could also search the D.R.A.I.C.H. but it does not - yet - include all the data I miss.

It would be nice, alternatively, if someone proficient with LM did an analyse of the army list provided, mentioning briefly each unit's good & bad, its usual behaviour.

I'd like also to know whether this army list provided is overall a classic one or something just made for school analysis but that you'll never actually meet - and why.

I offer to provide such help whenever you oppose Empire (my other army), and possibly Dwarves, HE, Bretonians and Goblins, my usual foes which AB I can read at leisure and which tactics I endured a couple of times already.


What I expect from the thread.
Military drills are not enough. You have to read Sun Zu and Clausewitz, and more important, meditate them.
Oh, yes, don't forget the Naval strategists, Mahan and above all Castex. ;) Don't we have corsairs as Druchii?
The same necessity abides for Dark Elves: we all need to study tactics, practice them and meditate them in order to improve our skills.

I believe in the potential of this thread for a commander-in-chief's meditations.



Be it about Tactial or Tactical, it will be very useful.

Thank you already and go ahead.
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Post by Loki »

What Druchii77 and I frequently see in the Army Lists forum is that a person will post a list, and then many of the suggestions would lead the list to look all the other lists that have been posted. Basically, we are looking at how to use this specific army in a game. It would be great that if someone posted a list in the forum that people would tell them specific things to do with the list as opposed to specific things to do against the list. Not everyone has the money or the models to adjust their lists endlessly, and we certainly don't want to see a lot of clone lists running around the forum. At any rate, this is an experiment to try to get people to look outside the box and to encourage creative thinking with the lists that we do see others come up with.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with helping someone adjusting their list. We are just trying to move away from a full rewrite of a list into what every other army looks like.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Blackfel wrote:Now the initial moves take a few things for granted. 1) Both the Cold One Chariot and the Cold One Knights pass their Stupidity test. 2) The Hydra can see over the Impassable Terrain (if not, simply switch the placement of the Hydra and the Harpies and move the Hydra to the right of the terrain.


I have to assume that the Hydra cannot see over the impassable terrain since if could, then the skinks could not have deployed behind it in the first place.

The impassable terrain actually poses a big problem in that case, since it greatly restricts the field of fire for the RBTs. Because of that big piece of impassable/LOS-blocking terrain, I would probably wieght my deployment toward the right side of the field entirely.
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Post by Blackfel »

It would have to be a very big piece of terrain to block line of site for the bolt throwers. Remember that Skinks are small, and if you put them close enough to the inner wall you won't be able to see them even if the impassable terrain isn't as tall as the hill.

That's incidental to the plan however. The hydra's Terror doesn't require LOS, it simply requires a 6" proximity. Should the Skinks fail that test at the start of their turn they would run, even though they can't actually see the creature they are afraid of. And if the impassable terrain does block LOS for the bolt throwers, simply switch targets to take out either the other unit of Saurus Warriors or the Stegadon.

The last thing I would do is deploy on the right flank. It would simply take too long to get to the Slann with march-blocking Skinks and Terrodons screwing with the movement. Better by far to get the units into combat as quickly as possible and hope for the best.

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Post by Druchii77 »

@Calisson. Thank you for the questions and inquiries. I think Loki much more eloquently explained the purpose of the sticky this month. I knew when I wrote it that it walked a fine line between army list and tactics, but isn't part of building an army list knowing how to use it against various opponents? I find myself continuously thinking about how I might be able to beat an oponent's army with mine and what role each unit has.

As Loki mentioned, the trend is to shoot for the norm and in our case, the norm is ASF black guard, unkillable lord, low magic and ring or high magic, etc. If someone doesn't fit into this mold, many times they are criticized. It is Loki's and my goal to create a thread that says "You can't change the situation, so how would you deal with it using what you have?" Thus, we analyze the list in relation to another list and see if it stands a chance of beating said list. How would the units given be used. These are all aspects of an army building theory of sorts. Thus, like most real world militaries do, I want us to not simply say, "Change x unit to y," but to see what can be done whether with a superior or inferior force. Remember, going for a draw is still a tactic.

Finally, I rarely meet a warhammer player that doesn't know about most of the other armies in the game, but there is an extensive array of resources that allow us access to those unknown builds. groups like anarchistica still update AB 2 and the new armyroster.com site is ace. You might check those out and see what you can design. I myself have only played against lizardmen a handful of times, but I have read plenty of accounts about them and I get the general idea. I also didn't want to breach copyright law by giving out rules. I hope this explains my stance to the lack of explanation on the magic item choice.


@Blackfel. I like you quick replies and can do attitude with this thread. Thanks mate. I would remind you that the impassable does block line of sight and that in Fantasy all terrain is considered to be infinitely tall, so even if a unit is on a hill, it can't see over the impassable.

That stated, I do like the idea of panicking the scouting skinks first via terror and the harpies, but wouldn't you stand to lose the harpies either way after the maneuver is done? Do you think that to be a good expenditure of their points?

Finally, I like you idea of playing a refused flank operation on the right flank. There is plenty of open terrain there and the terradons and skinks would have a hard time crossing the board or causing trouble with the fire from RBT and crossbows. This would allow the CoK, chariot, and black guard to handle the steg, kroxigor, and saurus.
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Post by Blackfel »

Druchii77,

I really like the concept of this thread, partly because it makes you think outside of the box, and partly because the one thing people forget about in Warhammer is that you aren't the only one playing...and even the most streamlined of lists isn't always the best for the job. Your opponent has just as much desire to win as you do, and his army selection and deployment will echo that. That's what makes tactical problems such as this so useful. When you have only the units you brought with you and you can't change your list, you really have to think about your deployment. A good deployment will offset many disadvantages, while a bad one can cost you the game before the first miniature is moved.

I looked up line of sight and terrain in the rule book, but I can't find any mention of terrain being infinitely high. All it says is, if there is a piece of terrain that may or may not block line of sight, look at the target from the miniature's perspective. If you can see the target you can shoot it, if you can't, you can't.

One thing I want to mention about the sorceress in the wood. Because she's 2" into the forest, she can't be shot, nor can she be charged by flyers. But with the Focus Familiar, she still has line of sight. It's a good way to protect her without putting her in a unit. If the enemy has a spell that can strike anywhere on the board without line of sight, she's screwed. But with the spells that you have listed, she should be fine.

As for the harpies, to me they have three uses, none of which apply. They attack war machines, they march block, and they charge lone characters. Placing them where I have is risky, but it's a throwaway unit anyway, and losing them won't be devastating. The payoff is the destruction of his Skink Scouts, and the removal of one of their march blocking units.

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Post by Dark apostle197 »

Blackfel wrote:The Lizardman player will no doubt be salivating at the prospect of opening up with the Salamanders on the Cold One Knights, but the Ring of Darkness and the good armor save will go a long way toward mitigating any damage they might cause.



How does the Ring of Darkness help? Everyone Lizardmen player I've played against used Salamanders as auto hit.
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Post by Blackfel »

You're right. It's been a while since I played against Lizardmen, and after checking the book it says that there is no need to roll. Just roll an artillery die and that's the number of hits the unit suffers.

Still, Strength 3, -1 armor save hits won't do too much damage to the Cold One Knights with only one round of shooting to take advantage of. In the next round, the Knights will declare a charge against the Salamanders, and that should be that.

The Ring of Darkness will still be useful against the Skinks with both blowpipes and javelins. If the scouting unit survives the terror check, they'll probably move to the left and try to generate some hits against the Knights.
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Post by tmr »

All I can say is thank you... this is what i have been looking for since I started playing WH last year.

Loki wrote:What Druchii77 and I frequently see in the Army Lists forum is that a person will post a list, and then many of the suggestions would lead the list to look all the other lists that have been posted. Basically, we are looking at how to use this specific army in a game. It would be great that if someone posted a list in the forum that people would tell them specific things to do with the list as opposed to specific things to do against the list. Not everyone has the money or the models to adjust their lists endlessly, and we certainly don't want to see a lot of clone lists running around the forum. At any rate, this is an experiment to try to get people to look outside the box and to encourage creative thinking with the lists that we do see others come up with.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with helping someone adjusting their list. We are just trying to move away from a full rewrite of a list into what every other army looks like.
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Post by Dagger of assassination »

Wonderful idea this is what we need!
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Post by tmr »

So I had a chance to play a Lizardman army sunday for the second time. the first time the take way is Salamanders and Skinks can be a back breaker if not dealt with right way.

So I used my magic, shooting DR and RbT to go after the Salamanders in the first turn. I used my shades, I ended up deploying last and there were no spots to hide them so I had to deploy them like RxBmen, to go after the Skinks.

I sent my CoK after his cav unit and flew my Dragon with DL to help with the Cav and go after the Slann (lvl4).

He moved first.

he move everything forward. He was magic heavy lvl 4 and a lvl 2. fired off a couple and luck for me I had the RoH... 3 of his 6 spells cast were miscast. I had to let one go off, re-roll on 1s and dispel one.

I sent my DR forward up to his face, passed fear tests, CoK failed stupid, no worries I was not going to move them up to far anyway. pushed the dragon on the far right. Magic, got doombolt off 2 wounds on Salamanders... note: every game I have ever won has been either w/o magic or just one lvl 2 scroll caddy, some times I don't even use magic. why? next turn I rolled 1s, miscast, 1s again, gone - but I digress.

Anyway, I focused DR shooting on the salamanders single shots. 15 shots got 3 more wounds 1 salamander gone and 1 hunting pack dead. RbT #1 whiff, RbT #2 killed second one. Salamanders gone objective 1 completed. Shades one left only killed 1 skink on the right 4 skinks. Dragon killed 3 cav.

turn 2. His big infantry unit charge one of my DR units, DR flee, failed charge - His 3 Kroxigor moved forward, skinks did not move. His remaining cav charged my shades who stood and fired - cav gone.
Magic - almost a repeat of his first turn except this time I did not need to use a dispel scroll. shooting popped a couple more DRs with skinks all DR passed leadership tests.

My Charges - CoK went after his 3 Kroxigor, DR charged remaining hunting pack shades charged both skink units.
Moves - DR that fled rallied, Dragon moved to rear of big Slann lvl4 unit to breath on it and terrorized.
Magic - pop goes the sorceress
Shooting RbT focused on the big infantry unit - both whiffed - nothing.
Dragon breaths - one wound on the lvl 2 and kill 3 warriors
HtH/Charges - CoK w/ Master cut through the Kroxigor like butter, DR slaughtered the remaining hunting pack models, each shade unit had assassins and skinks gone. Feeling pretty good.

turn 3.
Charges - none
Moves - he reformed his big unit of infantry.
Magic - he chewed into one of my units DR and went after my dragon. lost one unit of DRs but saved on wounds on the dragon and DL.
No HtH

My Charges - Dragon rear charges the Slann Lvl4 unit.
Remaining DR and Shades move to surround his other large infantry unit. His lvl 2 is trying to hide but there is no where on the board he can hide from the shooters. at this point all he has is a Slann infantry unit, another large block of warriors and a single lvl 2. I have Dragon/DL no wounds, CoK w/ Master now a unit of 4, two units of shades qty 6 and 7 each with assassins.
Magic - none
Shooting - RbT/shades/DR kill a couple of more warriors in the large block and the lvl 2 is killed.
HtH - dragon/dl kills only 2 warriors killed very bad rolling... the DL only kills one. Warriors win. Dragon/DL FAILS leadership double 6s.

turn 4
Charges - His Slann/Warriors charge my dragon/dl - dragon/dl run down like dogs
Moves - this other big block of warriors reform again
Magic - whiffs
HtH none

My Charges - remaining CoK and unit of Shades go after big block of infantry.
moves - position remaining DR and other shade units to start firing at the SLANN for the next few turns.
Magic - none
Shooting - get 4 wounds on the SLANN this guy is hard to kill.
HtH - Cok crush his last big unit of infantry.

turn 5
no chargers
at this point movement is pointless.
magic - goes after shades but that darn RoH works great to bad it does not cause the SLANN to have to roll on the miscast table. oh well
no shooting and HtH

My charges - none
no magic
shooting more damage to the SLANN but not enough to kill
no HtH

we stopped the game by mutual agreement

What I've learned is I really do not like magic.
Shades with Assassins kick @ss... will not go anywhere without my CoK w/master combination.

Kill salamanders and skinks as soon as possible and I should have started going after the SLANN sooner and never, ever, ever charger you Dragon/DL comb unless you know you can win.






Blackfel wrote:Here's my solution to this tactical question that you've posed. First my setup.

Normally I would never put two bolt throwers this close to each other, but in this situation I think they'll be fine. Assuming the Dark Elves win the first turn, the initial move will look like this:

Now the initial moves take a few things for granted. 1) Both the Cold One Chariot and the Cold One Knights pass their Stupidity test. 2) The Hydra can see over the Impassable Terrain (if not, simply switch the placement of the Hydra and the Harpies and move the Hydra to the right of the terrain.

The Lizardmen are set up in a classic Citadel Defense/Refused Flank position, and they will hold their position in order to give the Slann a few rounds to soften up the Dark Elves with spells. To combat this you have to be aggressive. Taking out the Skink Scouts is key to this: as long as they are left alone, they will march block the army until the cows come home. Fly the harpies off of the hill behind the skinks, and move the hydra as far forward as he can get, making sure to be within 6" of the Skinks for the Terror test during his turn. Although it's true that the Lizardman player will be taking his leadership tests on 3d6, Skinks only have a leadership of 5, and they are too far from the Slann to take advantage of his leadership. You should have a good chance of Panicking the unit and destroying them outright. The Bolt Throwers should spend this round trying to soften up the unit of Saurus Warriors closest to the Cold One Knights. Everyone else rushes forward as fast as they can, except the Crossbowmen who move 5" and fire at the Kroxigor. If you can, have the hydra breath on the skinks to try and generate a panic test. If they flee, they'll run through the unit of 5 Harpies and will be destroyed instantly.

The Lizardman player will no doubt be salivating at the prospect of opening up with the Salamanders on the Cold One Knights, but the Ring of Darkness and the good armor save will go a long way toward mitigating any damage they might cause.

Your goal is to work your way through his units to get to the Slann. The Cold Ones will be in combat at the start of the second turn, and although they will be unsupported they should be able to crush the Salamanders.

Anyway, I like the idea of this post, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say as well!

Blackfel
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