Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

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Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

Post by Malekithau »

Hi all,

Pretty ambitious title I know but I think I have it. I've been working on tactics for the De for while now even rereading Tuomas Pirinens' classic tactic guide for 4th/5th Ed DE and the Barons offering amongst others.
I also kept reading the intro to our book over and over again wondering if there was some hidden message :roll:

Then I started reading other tactics articles thread etc for all the races and began to notice the same thread running through them all. Everybody talks about ranks, standards and outnumbering till they're blue in the face.
That's when I started thinking about these and whether they were all important. You see in my opinion elite armies work best in small units in most games as they did in history ie Roman cohorts/maniples. What these units had over the opposition in terms of training and morale were lost if only half of the troops were used against the enemy. They were also very manoevrable able to charge through gaps in the enemy lines and take advantage of flanks etc.

I also realised that the traditional 4-5 wide 4 deep strong units were wasting something we have in abundance high Ws and attacks. I made a couple of other decisions including that no unit would have a standard as these are just easy vps. Musos would be of most use to DRs but to no other unit. Every unit would have a champ (except DRs and shades who aren't meant to fight units front on) to meet and issue challenges which can be vital to keeping the unit alive.

Since then I have been experimenting with small unit sizes and so far I have been encouraged by what I have seen and have only suffered a couple of defeats (due to magic and old style salamanders). But I also pulled off some spectacular wins and in the process realised that hordes are actually easy meat to a well structured well handled force.

Firstly, thanks to the Baron who reinforced something I had forgotten - if you can have something happening in every phase. With this philosophy in mind I sat down to create such an army but one that would also be in line with my thinking on small units conforming to 1500 limit of the next tournament I was entering. Firstly I decided that stupidity would play no part in my army so cold one were out. Without the cold ones I could afford to field a noble as my general. At leadership 9 we still have it better then most armies. As a noble he was also cheap and able to be sacrificed if the need arose. He rides into battle on a nice fast dark steed with a GW, HVA and SDC plus the seal of ghrond. I also selected a sorceress with l2 darkstar cloak and lifetaker. These were all my characters, this army would rely on troops to win.

My core troops were straightforward - 2 units of 5 dark riders, rxbws, muso and 2 units of 10 rxbw warriors, sh Champ. I needed more dedicated close combat specialists so added a unit of 10 corsairs with champ, 10 execs with champ and 10 witch elves with champ. To this I added 2 RBTs - never leave home without 2 of these, at least. With the remaining points I purchased a unit of 5 shades. They would be vital to my plans to slow and harass the enemy from turn 1.

With this army I have faced lizards, brets, khemri, empire skaven, O&G, Chaos and a large undead army. I have only suffered the two defeats from more then 20 games. The army has shown great resiience and is able to pull off some amazing feats because it can quite simply move past units LOS, through gaps and create tactical headaches for the opponent as every charge seems to be supported by a flank charge. Concentrated shooting whittle enemy units down to be picked off by the combat optimised units.

I also discovered something that should've been obvious to everyone but we are all hung up on ranks and standards. Do the maths on this -

12 witchelves with champ with witchbrew in one line charging a unit of 25 skellies with hw, sh std, muse and champ and 25 zombies with std and muso. Remember this counts as one combat with only one standard and a maximum of 3 ranks. Now try it with gobbos, skaven etc give them spears if you want. That's 37 attacks across a frontage of 10....... :twisted:

In a game on the weekend 10 Witchelves with champ (no witchbrew) fought 25 skellies and 25 zombies as above and within 2 rounds of combat they were through into the rear of the enemy. :D

Combining this tactic with what I have dicovered about small units has led to an army that has really got me back into Druchii.

Give it a try. This is where tactics will actually work. Get the timing right and you'll be surpised at what can be achieved.

John
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Post by Lord ark'arn »

if ur gonna have RXB warriors, dont put a champ in the unit, his extra attack doesnt do anythin unless ur in combat, and u dont want that to happen
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Post by Malekithau »

if ur gonna have RXB warriors, dont put a champ in the unit, his extra attack doesnt do anythin unless ur in combat, and u dont want that to happen


Yeah I do actually. My whole army fights. These guys have the best armour save in the army after COKs. The extra attack is worth it.
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Post by Scronk »

When referring to Tuomas Pirinens' work do you mean the one where he goes by the name of Longsword or is there another one?

Also does anyone know links to those works because I used the portent one but now thats down
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Post by The grim reaper »

Pirinen's not Pirinens' ;)

Why can't DE get Wall of fire? It is so nice against units like skaven slaves
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Post by Keledron »

One key rule to 6th ed Warhammer success has been brought up here though in a convaluted way.

More units = better chance of winning!
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Post by Malekithau »

One key rule to 6th ed Warhammer success has been brought up here though in a convaluted way.

More units = better chance of winning!


I think I was trying to say something else entirely. I don't actually agree with your statement at all. More isn't necessarliy better. if only one person gets something out of this post then I'll be happy.
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Post by De bois-guilbert »

First off: I'm quite unexperienced when it comes to Dark Elves, as I'm only just starting out with 'em. Been playing Vampire Counts so far.

I've got two questions on your article (which makes for very interesting reading, I might say):
While I see that maneuverability can be an advantage (and more units can, too: more opportunities for flank charges), do the rules really allow it? At the end of the day, your units still have to be 4 models wide, which is only one less than usual. Thus, a unit of 10 is almost as cumbersome to maneuver, particularly if you're trying to dance around your enemy's charge arcs, as your standard block of 20-25, isn't it?
Secondly: isn't the army setup quite vulnerable to missile fire? Most of those units will have to lose a mere 3 models (at T3) to force a break test. That would get me sweating when facing something with a lot of bows or handguns.

Mind you, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but can't theses two things be a problem?

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Post by Malekithau »

While I see that maneuverability can be an advantage (and more units can, too: more opportunities for flank charges), do the rules really allow it? At the end of the day, your units still have to be 4 models wide, which is only one less than usual. Thus, a unit of 10 is almost as cumbersome to maneuver, particularly if you're trying to dance around your enemy's charge arcs, as your standard block of 20-25, isn't it?


The units are usually 5-6 wide but only 2 deep. This where you can catch a lot of the slower, larger units out in that your 10 inch move can put your units past their front. The whole idea is to maximise attacks not spend points on rank bonus. For example a typical 16 figure corsair unit has 12 figures (120 pts) spent to get +3 rank bonus. An equivalent Goblin unit spends what 60 points for exactly the same return! Is this efficient?

Secondly: isn't the army setup quite vulnerable to missile fire? Most of those units will have to lose a mere 3 models (at T3) to force a break test. That would get me sweating when facing something with a lot of bows or handguns.


Yep it can hurt but then you will have twice as many units for them to shoot at :D
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Post by Death star »

I like it:)

I often use small untis my self.. but I must say I tend to bring along a standard.. even to rather small units. (like witch elves and exes.)

This is becouse with the standard, and a magic banner, the unit does not have to be large to breake the enemy, not with exes and witches.

10 witche elves, with command, witchbrew, can do havoc. and possibly warbanner.

10 exes. command and standard of slaughter7warbanner.

10 corsairs with command, and a noble.

small units of COK,

And prefoblably something large and nasty as the hydra to take some of the missile fire..


becouse the small units are highly vaulnerable to shooting... and becouse of that I have yet to try small units in a large scale in battles of 2000 and more.

Im afraid of shooting, and magic..

But it might work.. with all the extra points you get to spare, you can invest in some nasty things like manticores, hydras, and other things that can either absorb shooting, or get and end to it.


and to all ... never underestimate crossbowmen as flankers.:) If yo let the have a try at it, they will not disapoint you.
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Post by De bois-guilbert »

Re. ranks: I see, that does make sense. Certainly sounds like a stratagem that's tricky to pull off, but very effective.

Re. missiles fire: Humm, dunno. I might be a bit paranoid there, being an undead player. :roll: I'd agree that it doesn't make any difference when your enemy has large number of missile troops. However, when he's fielding a lower proportion, i.e. he's basically shortish on missiles, small units give him the opportunity to actually break something with them. On the other hand, in that case he'll probably get no more than one unit (out of a fair few) to that stage...
Humm, it's beginning to make even more sense...

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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

A friend of mine who regularly kicks my ass started putting this idea into my head as well. I have not tried it yet, but seeing that you have had success is encouraging me.

His basic argument is that Elves are expensive, and Elves sitting in ranks are wasted points. It actually makes alot of sense. It also allows you to have more units, and this gives the advantage in deployment.

He went on to suggest "sacraficial" units of Spearmen without shields or command in units of 10 (only 90 points) to throw out in the front, bait/eat charges, and generally act as cannon fodder. The real regiments would be designed at 11 or 12 men strong so as to not be panicked by the sacraficial units.

I really want to try this out now!
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Post by Rustan »

Thanks, malekithau! Very good reading.
I have been annoyed at the large blocks of troops I have used, but until now I didnt know what to do about them. Like Anthropophage I thought small units like this would be susceptible to arrows and magic, but with our high Ld it wouldn't be catastrophic if a unit had to take a panic test, as if they fail it not many others will run.

How do you deploy the rxb? 10x1 or 5x2? 5x2 if you have hills?

Do you have a fixed setup, or do you adapt to the terrain and opponent completely? Any ideas for setup?

How could you have a frontage of 10 with the witches? What sort of monster-unit were you facing, 8x4?

The army has as many models as my 2000pts tournament army, and bears some resemblance to it, but without exec's and rxb's, and added more corsairs and monsters.

I will try this out, absolutely.
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Post by Fellblade »

I love it! It plays to the DE strengths (speed, high WS, many attacks) and means that we don't have to spend as much on the metal models in order to have an effective army. I will be sure to try it out.
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Sounds like a great plan vs. horde armies, but I have two comments/questions:

1) Is it effective as an 'all comers' army? Specifically, I think Bretonnians and mortal chaos would give it a lot of trouble.

2) How is it you're able to get into contact w/ two big units of undead like that? You can't charge both, so does that mean your opponent was dumb enough to charge you w/ both?
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Post by Malekithau »

How could you have a frontage of 10 with the witches? What sort of monster-unit were you facing, 8x4?


Two units one of 5x5 Skellies and 5x5 zombies plus got hit in the flank next turn by 4 zombies. I charged them as they were in line with each other. Low armour saves mean that I could kill lots. Most horde armies field hw + sh combos so spears aren't such a big deal. I know a guy that fields 100 strong NG units. I'd love to get this going on one of them.

1) Is it effective as an 'all comers' army? Specifically, I think Bretonnians and mortal chaos would give it a lot of trouble.


No army can cope with everything. Brettonians are a problem but even with the blessing the RBTs will hurt and so will rxbws as they are only T3 2+ AS. Brets also have very restrictive charge arcs and low leadership for most units. These two armies plus empire cav armies are the bane of this army but they are also usually small and (except for Bret lances) vulnerable to flank/rear charges. Small units can avoid combat with more ease then larger ones plus DRs/shades/harpies can slow down the cav armies while the RBTs deal with the nastier elements. The trick is to avoid head on combat at all costs unless under your terms.

How do you deploy the rxb? 10x1 or 5x2? 5x2 if you have hills?


Usually 10x1 but they can rank up on hills or for combat. I don't actually use hills for the xbws that often as that is a little defensive for my liking and I don't like my units tied down in any way. The whole army needs to work together.

Do you have a fixed setup, or do you adapt to the terrain and opponent completely? Any ideas for setup?


No fixed setup. I adapt to the terrain and enemy. I usually start with my DRs depending on my strategy. They quite often operate by themselves as basically a refused flank usually in concert with the shades. I rarely deploy the RBTs together or within 6 inches even if that means one is on a hill and the other isn't.

I often use small units my self.. but I must say I tend to bring along a standard.. even to rather small units. (like witch elves and exes.) This is becouse with the standard, and a magic banner, the unit does not have to be large to breake the enemy, not with exes and witches.


Fair enough. Just think about this - 10 corsairs with champ = 110 VPs
10 corsairs champ, std and war banner = 245 VPs. Bit of a difference isn't it?
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Post by Maraith tuerl »

Two units one of 5x5 Skellies and 5x5 zombies plus got hit in the flank next turn by 4 zombies. I charged them as they were in line with each other. Low armour saves mean that I could kill lots. Most horde armies field hw + sh combos so spears aren't such a big deal. I know a guy that fields 100 strong NG units. I'd love to get this going on one of them.


It's my understanding that you can't intentionally charge two units with one unit, even if they are inline. You'd have to wheel to avoid one of the units.
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Post by Sneaky the ii »

I play with small units. But I do give them Standard, lord and musician. Never more than two ranks deep, very elvish.
Normally with two sorcerress level 2 with 2 dispell scrolls is enough to get me into hth without suffering significant losses.
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If you win by combat resollution don´t forget to overlap. Huge advantage.

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Post by Tacklbry »

I think that this sounds like an excellent tactic for armys that are not shooty. The fragility of small core units might put the army at a greater risk when fighting "in the Dark". I do use my special and more elite units (esp. witches) in small groups to maximise maneuver and hitting power.

This is similar to my approach, but taken to a greater extreme. Might have to experiment with it this way.
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Post by Aki asura »

Defintaly nice
I'm revising my whole list now, using your method (I used to play dwarves, so thought i should rank up...but with high movement, what's the point?)
Maybe you started something...
Maybe the DE win ratio will go above 50%!
Wouldn't that be great? :)
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Wow!!!

Post by Danfat »

Thats a great tactic, just building my DE army, trying to make a killer painted army, this sounds like a great tactic, cause elves are elite and don't need each other to kill guys, anyway, we wont be outnumbering anyone, so whats the point of wasting double the points when one unit will kill the same amount. I think you got something. This deserves a Warhammer Tactic Nobel Prize. Kick-ass work man, keep it up!!!!!

By the way I'm a n00b to DE, but a Vet. to Fantasy.
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Post by Malekithau »

It's my understanding that you can't intentionally charge two units with one unit, even if they are inline. You'd have to wheel to avoid one of the units.


Couldn't possibly miss both units - "accidental" :shock: charges happen. The units were lined up next to each other exactly in line. Will check the exact wording in the rulebook when I get home.

This deserves a Warhammer Tactic Nobel Prize. Kick-ass work man, keep it up!!!!!


Jeez I wouldn't go that far.But thanks. :D
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Post by Mord. »

Yes, he's right this does deserve a prize but not because it is fullproof. With this army you wouldn't last against most opponents I face,

Take high-elves: They are just as fast, have killer magic with no range and have quite good shooting, cause it reaches further than yours

Take Chaos: Chaos knights will ne unimpressed by your little elite trick and just butcher you were you stand

Take (chaos)dwarves, they'll blast appart your units one by one and wil not attack you and just hold their ground even IF you get past them and take out enough war machines. You lack the brute force to get them moving

Take Lizardmen, the skinks will tear appart your detachments and wil just stand magicing at you till you drop. Also a scar veteran is unstoppable to this army

Take Woodelves: A treeman means a problem and if you dare get close they'll shoot you down and beat you at your own tactic of outrunning the enemy.

Take goblins, if the player acts right he'll have fanatics causing havoc and magic doing no less. A giant means you lose a lot of your hard needed shooting.

You're tactic looks great and will probably work in many cases, all I'm saying is that I admire your courage and tactical insight, cause I would not dare take such an army against most opponents. I was wondering if you could post a sample army list, just to have a vieuw of how you think an army should look like. You have my respect for your cunning and wish you the best of luck. ;)

A tip for this tactic: If the need should arise, cause you will probably be beaten in some cases cause you really stack points against you seeing as a banner, outnumber and 3 ranks makes 5 points, you'll have to beat your enemy by 6 points cause on 5 he'll have a musician and you won't, you could always take a simple battle standard to make your army hold its ground and have at least one unit which has a banner, think about it. :P
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Post by Malekithau »

Take high-elves: They are just as fast, have killer magic with no range and have quite good shooting, cause it reaches further than yours


All very true except that they don't have the access to fast cav we have, are just as prone to dying at a slight nick and will just as likely deploy in big units as well.
At 1500 points magic is a problem because I won't spend the points on antimagic save for the seal. Hatred can help as well.

Take Chaos: Chaos knights will ne unimpressed by your little elite trick and just butcher you were you stand


I'm a very experienced chaos general and know all the strengths and weaknesses. They are by no means unbeatable. I quite like facing chaos armies. they are one of the few armies that have less figures as well as less units. You don't have to beat the knights in order to win. Letting them win combat against say a unit of corsairs (110 pts) and taking them out of the battle for all intents and purposes leaves the rest of your army (1890 pts) to clean up his army (approx 1600 pts left).

Take (chaos)dwarves, they'll blast appart your units one by one and wil not attack you and just hold their ground even IF you get past them and take out enough war machines. You lack the brute force to get them moving.


I quite like Chaos Stunties too and have an army of them. Blunderblusses are great and the Bull Centaurs rock but the army relies on hobgobs for a lot of its mobility as well as for cheap warmachines. Blunderbus range is 12" - why get within it before they are hit by every RBT and rxbw you have?

Take Lizardmen, the skinks will tear appart your detachments and wil just stand magicing at you till you drop. Also a scar veteran is unstoppable to this army


Nothing is unstoppable. Skinks are only T2 and now have a max range of 12 inches. Skinks are also quite expensive. As before magic is always a problem then again all it takes is one miscast to ruin a mages' day.

Take Woodelves: A treeman means a problem and if you dare get close they'll shoot you down and beat you at your own tactic of outrunning the enemy.


Why would I fight the woodelves when I can beat them by seizing one table quarter ? Their special VP conditions make them easy beats - at the moment.

Take goblins, if the player acts right he'll have fanatics causing havoc and magic doing no less. A giant means you lose a lot of your hard needed shooting.


Giants die very easily when witch elves charge them. Goblins have low LD and die in droves even to s3 shooting. Fanatics when triggerd correctly end up being just as much a hindrance to the gobbos as a help.

You're tactic looks great and will probably work in many cases, all I'm saying is that I admire your courage and tactical insight, cause I would not dare take such an army against most opponents. I was wondering if you could post a sample army list, just to have a view of how you think an army should look like. You have my respect for your cunning and wish you the best of luck.


Thank you. I will post my 2000 point tourney list later. My 1500 list is in the first post minus points etc but it's all there.

A tip for this tactic: If the need should arise, cause you will probably be beaten in some cases cause you really stack points against you seeing as a banner, outnumber and 3 ranks makes 5 points, you'll have to beat your enemy by 6 points cause on 5 he'll have a musician and you won't, you could always take a simple battle standard to make your army hold its ground and have at least one unit which has a banner, think about it


You're right. I will be down in most case but that is only if I allow it to be so. So far I have managed to pull off combined charges quite often as my battle line is usually longer then my opponents (not something you see very often with elves). When you get a flank charge it doesn't matter how many ranks he has plus the bonus for flank attack negates the standard throw in WE with witchbrew and outnumbering is also out the window. I won't fight head on unless I really must or I have the advantage.

I'm not saying that my army is unbeatable by any means. No army is. But I am trying use what we have available to the best of my ability.

If I wanted to win every game I'd still use my Slaanesh Warriors.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

@ Mal : this is excellent stuff man and very in keeping with my new train of thought as I look to develop my tactics further. My 1500pt list has lots of small units too.

I'll post more into this later ( busy with work right now ) but I reckon we can take this a long way between us :D
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