Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

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/\\//\
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Post by /\\//\ »

Durban Poison wrote:I was just wondering and maybe someone has already post this but has anyone had any experience with using MSU with other armies? High elves I tried and I don't think are that good. Thier fast cav is a special choice and not very good core melee troops. One thing I have tried out and really like are the great eagles, awesome and only 50 points or so a piece.



High Elf Spearmen are not that great at MSU IMO. This is chiefly because they pay extra points for the ability to fight in 3 ranks. However since MSU isn't really designed to have large units the High Elves are paying extra points for an ability they can't use. Also as you said the fact that Reavers are special is a problem.
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Kaleth
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Post by Kaleth »

Yes, true. But what about an all cavalry MSU? I think that would rock.
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Post by Deamon whisper »

I think this is a great tactic but it seems to have a weakness against,

shooting, with the small units even a few casultis can crippel the units

Cavalry, What are this army goint to do against an all cavalry army

Never the less i inted on truing it out so heres my attemnt on a MSU army


1 noble, GW, HA, SDC, SoG, S (joins the exes)

10 corsaires, CH (maybe mus)

10 corsaires, CH (maybe mus)

5 dark riders, rxb, mus

5 dark riders, rxb, mus

10 exes, CH, mus

5 harpies

1 RBT
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Mornar shethurith
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Post by Mornar shethurith »

what does MSU stand for?
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Deathblade
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Post by Deathblade »

MSU stands for Multiple Small Units if i am correct.
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Post by Jeffleong13 »

/\\// wrote:High Elf Spearmen are not that great at MSU IMO. This is chiefly because they pay extra points for the ability to fight in 3 ranks. However since MSU isn't really designed to have large units the High Elves are paying extra points for an ability they can't use. Also as you said the fact that Reavers are special is a problem.


Actually ... it also means that they can use a much smaller frontage and still get everyone into combat. Small units of 12 HE Spears (4x3) are a scary proposition.

J
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Post by Sugacapra »

jeffleong13 wrote:Actually ... it also means that they can use a much smaller frontage and still get everyone into combat. Small units of 12 HE Spears (4x3) are a scary proposition.

J


true.. i've tried with HE and 12 spearelves in 4x3 formation are perfect, i sustain a charge of a khorne hero... he simply bounce off :-)

with 4x3 you score:
2 rank,superior number,a standard and a musician (if you tied...)... he need to deal 5 wound to win.. :-) and you counterattack will all the survivor...
yep HE spear are good for MSU, the problem are the fast cavalry that is a special choice..
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Post by Doowa »

I've only resently opened my eyes for the wonders of MSU, being 'lured' here by a friend, hehe. But when talking about the possebility for MSU in other armies I've come to realize that this is exactly what I'm trying to atchive with my TK army.
My army consists of none RnF units, but a lot of chariots, Ushabti, scorpions, light cav., a smaller units of heavy cav., som archers and some flyers with only a few standards and characters. Of obvious reasons, this army hasn't got champions in every unit ;)

Thanks a lot for opening my eyes!

Ps. In reality I guess this is also the way fast Chaos armies work :)
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Post by Quota »

I guess I was the one who lured him :oops:
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Doowa wrote:I've only resently opened my eyes for the wonders of MSU, being 'lured' here by a friend, hehe. But when talking about the possebility for MSU in other armies I've come to realize that this is exactly what I'm trying to atchive with my TK army.
My army consists of none RnF units, but a lot of chariots, Ushabti, scorpions, light cav., a smaller units of heavy cav., som archers and some flyers with only a few standards and characters. Of obvious reasons, this army hasn't got champions in every unit ;)

Thanks a lot for opening my eyes!

Ps. In reality I guess this is also the way fast Chaos armies work :)


I don't think MSU would work very well with TK. My concern would be the reliance on Combat Resolution combined with the TK inability to march. I'm not saying it couldn't work, but it doesn't seem to be something the TK are geared towards.

Let us know how it works for you either way! :)
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Barf the grim
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I like the ideas.....

Post by Barf the grim »

But i am troubled.

My regular HE opponents loves his cavalry. He normally fields 2X 10 SH, 2x5 SH, Chariots, and 3-4 bolt throwers.

he devestated me in shooting last time we played, and i had "regular" blocks of infantry and COK.

So i wonder how smaller units would not be firstly damaged by mass bolt thrwoer fire, followed by hus heavy cav charge (by turn 2, in most cases).

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Post by Seth »

yeah ... I've been out for that too, an "evil" (bah :twisted: ) HE player trys almost in every case run me over with his SHs and DPs after his RBT ... do'h can't have to many small units, if I do (and have them to near each other) they will be run over like lambs :shock: ...


any suggestions ? ( :idea: ? )
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Mysterygent
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great topic

Post by Mysterygent »

great post. but has anyone tried this tactic in an actual tournament setting? i would imagine if works in a club-type setting since one is more familiar with the play style and armies of other club members.

once again, very grateful for this post. i will try MSU soon. cheers! :D
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Re: great topic

Post by Dark Alliance »

mysterygent wrote:great post. but has anyone tried this tactic in an actual tournament setting? i would imagine if works in a club-type setting since one is more familiar with the play style and armies of other club members.

once again, very grateful for this post. i will try MSU soon. cheers! :D



I took a 1500pt MSU list to joint 5th place at London Conflict last month. It's a very good tactic, better in a tournament setting than against your regular club opponents. The whole point is that you are surprising them with what you are doing!

Oh and welcome to druchii.net :D
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thanks

Post by Mysterygent »

thanks for the reply. :D i just want to say that this is truly a world-class site. top notch. glad to be here. :D
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Post by Malekithau »

Mystery gent - where are you from?
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Post by Seraphlaw »

MSU's work better 2k armies and up i think...
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Post by Malekithau »

MSU's work better 2k armies and up i think...


Not true. MSU works well at any size.
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Re: great topic

Post by Malekithau »

mysterygent wrote:great post. but has anyone tried this tactic in an actual tournament setting? i would imagine if works in a club-type setting since one is more familiar with the play style and armies of other club members.

once again, very grateful for this post. i will try MSU soon. cheers! :D


I have used MSU in a variety of settings including tournament. I came second in the last tourney I played in with MSU. I didn't win every game but I averaged around 70% of available points. I also did well in the soft scores comp, sports and painting. Just remember that a tournament is not just about winning games.

And just imagine how good you'd feel if you did win using an army that actually requires some tactical thought rather than the pure maths of 3 ranks, standard bla bla.
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Post by Ardent sinner »

How is this for a MSU type list?

NOBLE=70pts 1+AS/0+-missles-spells
SDC,+6pts,
HA+4pts,
Great Weapon+4pts
Web of Shadows+25pts
Cold One+26pts
TOTAL=135pts

NOBLE=70pts 0+AS/-1AS+-missles-spells
SDC,+6pts,
HA+4pts,
ENCHANTED SHEILD(5+AS)+10pts
SWORD OF BATTLE(+1 A)+25pts
Cold One+26pts
TOTAL=141pts

SORCERESS=90pts SHADOW MAGIC 6+AS
Dispel Scrolls+25pts,
Seal of Ghrond+25pts (adds 1 dispel dice to army pool)
Dark Steed+12pts
TOTAL=152pts

WARRIORS[18]=162pts 6x3
Shields+1pt/model, 5+AS/4+-C.C
Musician+5pts +1Ld for rally attempt
TOTAL=185pts

CORSAIRS[18]=180pts 6x3 2 attacks
Champion+10pts
TOTAL=190pts

DARK RIDERS[5]=90pts 6x1 Str4 charge 5+AS
DARK RIDERS[5]=90pts 6x1 Str4 charge 5+AS
DARK RIDERS[5]=90pts 6x1 Str4 charge 5+AS

COLD ONE KNIGHTS(9)=261pts 5x2
Standard Bearer+18pts/BANNER OF MURDER+45pts 2+AS Str5 charge
TOTAL=324pts

WITCH ELVES OF KHAINE[12]=156pts 5x2
1-HAG(+12pts)
WITCHBREW+25pts, enemy units cannot claim C.R for flank, rear, outnumber or higher ground
TOTAL=193pts

EXECUTIONERS(12)=132pts 5x2

HARPIES(6)-=78pts
-RARE UNITS-

REAPER BOLT THROWERS(2)=200pts

TOTAL ARMY POINTS=2000pts


I plan on using this army against a High Elf Cavalry army.
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Post by Quota »

If you know it's a cavalry army, I'd get Executioners instead of the Witch Elves. The Killing Blow will help you alot against cavalry.

Also I'd drop the Corsairs and spearmen at least down to 15 (personally I use them in units of 12), and get a bait spearmen unit of 10.
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Post by Cardinal fang »

After hearing about MSU from various forums, I've finally returned to my birthplace and the birthplace of the MSU concept.

After browsing the thread (ain't no way I'm reading through all 7 pages, sorry! ;) ), I'm impressed and also inspired.

Congrats on a cool concept Malekithau, will you be taking a MSU Druchii Army to MOAB?

Cheers,
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Congrats on a cool concept Malekithau, will you be taking a MSU Druchii Army to MOAB?


Fang! Good to hear from you my boy. I gather you've seen the posts from Andrew Galea and Charles Black about their MSU armies? I've managed to get a couple of the better Oz players to give it a shot. Personally I won't play again till next year when I will go to Dogcon3 to give Chucky a kicking!

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Tactics

Post by Smokey »

It's so interesting to follow all different thoughts and concepts here. My small experience suggests that surprises can be very effective. And when it comes to options; the Dark Elves are gifted.

I'm so glad I am playing a race that can be varied so much, and allow so much mobility; rather than a "one-strategy-race" like the hairy ones.

I'm playing a lot against Vampire Counts (Blood Dragons) and have learned to respect combat results against a fear causing enemy. I can certainly see how MSU could be used to get a fast moving magic/shooting-force. But can you use MSU in combat effectively against undead? And how?

/N'trhic
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