Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

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Sanguinius
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Post by Sanguinius »

I must agree to Malekithau's idea of small units. I also used to field large units (untill I read his excellent article :lol: ) but often my small units fared just as well because my large units almost always got a flank charge which negates the benefit of a large unit. Then I figured: better to have two units of ten to shield each other than one unshielded 20 man strong one. So far I have not regretted to have converted to this tactic. :D
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Post by Captaincourage »

interesting...I made an army virtually Identical to your 1500 points army scaled to 2000 points 2 weeks ago. I only have 340 char. pts total. But I took unit per. unit verbatum what you took except I have 4 units of dark riders. My characters were a little different.

I strip my command units down to almost nothing. I don't see the strength in a champion accepting a challenge due to the overkill rule. And in the end I get 1 or 2 more units out of it (4 STB= 40 pts, 4 musicians = 20 pts, 4 champions = 40 points; total=100 points) 100 points is almost 16 spearmen. (a good deal of people take full command on all units.)

I'm W/ you on this strategy all the way and brought up this same idea in another post and I got a good amount of resistance (as it seems you are).

The thing I think people don't realize (or dont' think about maybe??)is that a flank charge is much more powerful then +3 rank bonues. When you have so many small units on the table, the idea is that each has multiple supporting units that will hit the flanks or rear at the same time another unit hits on the front. Additionally if 1 unit breaks and flees, it's very cheap and doesn't hurt me much. A lot of times my opponents won't persue simply because they don't want to take such a small unit out at the cost of moving a unit of theirs into a position it takes 1 or 2 turns to recover from.

I have to give props to www.snakeeyes.nu, where I first read some great articles on this tactic. I'd name the author but the site is down right now.

Preach on Brother Malekithau! :twisted: Spread the gospel of new thought! Don't get discouraged, the earth used to be at the center of the universe too! :D
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Barondesade
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Post by Barondesade »

If it was snakeeyes, it was likely me. We've had a major technical upset, and I don't know when we will be back on line.

I've just come back from having my arse kicked by a Khorne army for the second time in a row. I had something of an ephiphany when I looked down at my unit of 25 Spearmen and realized that there wasn't one single unit in my opponent's army that my Spearmen could beat.

So, I'll give this a try, and see what I come up with.
"When an attack is ordered the men must never be allowed to get the feeling that their casualties have been calculated in advance according to the laws of probablility" -Field Marshall Irwin Rommel

Baron DeSade
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Post by Ardent sinner »

I have had my MSU list annialated twice in a row too but from High Elf Cavalry. I don't know what I did wrong, but I lost. It is really hard to co-ordinate a multi-unit charge on an opponent who is tougher+faster than you. On more than 1 occasion, I have had units destroyed because they were too small to stand up to a big unit and their flanking support didn't matter when they broke and ran. I undertstand the idea, but I think HE Cavalry requires a different approach.
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Heath2668
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Post by Heath2668 »

Think flee and flank. Don't try to coordinate multiple charges if it's too difficult just use some units to bait your opponent into a charge, flee with the charged unit and then charge him with one of your other units on your turn.
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Heath2668
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Post by Heath2668 »

BaronDeSade wrote:If it was snakeeyes, it was likely me. We've had a major technical upset, and I don't know when we will be back on line.

.


Unfortunately it's still offline. Hopefully It'll be up soon as I'd like to read these pearls of wisdom.

Heath
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Malisteen
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Re: Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU

Post by Malisteen »

This seems like some interesting strategy, but I'm not sure how it would fare against wood elves. Their small infantry units will outmaneuver yours (being very similar except having skirmish), so they shouldn't have too much trouble dancing around you and taking out one unit at a time through concentrated missile fire (the dark riders, of course, being the first to go) and more potent combined charges. Other then that, looks pretty good to me.

One idea that might be worth looking into, although it is slightly expensive, is multiple characters riding dark pegasi, especially once the beastmaster revision becomes official.
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Shockwave
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Post by Shockwave »

DROWGAN wrote:I have had my MSU list annialated twice in a row too but from High Elf Cavalry. I don't know what I did wrong, but I lost. It is really hard to co-ordinate a multi-unit charge on an opponent who is tougher+faster than you. On more than 1 occasion, I have had units destroyed because they were too small to stand up to a big unit and their flanking support didn't matter when they broke and ran. I undertstand the idea, but I think HE Cavalry requires a different approach.


I had the same problem going up against beasts. granted it didn't help on a 4x4 board.

I don't know play my old way i was winng what 80% of my games granted i'm no touney player. but how many games am gonna have to play to get this working?? I'm luck if i get 1 game every 2 weeks.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

Strangely, been here longer than most of the Admin staff.......
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Against Wood Elves an MSU list is best supplemented by the use of Scouting Assassins and the Beastmaster / Manticore combo. Or a Noble on a mount with the Deathmask. Elves can fail ld tests too remember! !lol!

Shades and DRs are harder for them to take out than you think with their superior movement and ability to march and shoot.
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Shadowlord
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Post by Shadowlord »

Im sorry if this has already been discussed (I dont have time to read 207 posts :shock: ) but has anyone taking an MSU Army against another MSU army?...

Would it maybe be more effective to field a hybrid list vs. MSU? Big units to give you the advantage... small to maximize tactics?
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Nartzim
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Post by Nartzim »

I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! :D I have always claimed that you win the battle by multiple charges in flanks and rear and what better army to do it with then the DE. But i have experimented with DR units of 8 and usually fields my corsairs, WE etc. in 6x3 formation....obviously the wrong choice :oops: But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!
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Aêstord geliândor
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Post by Aêstord geliândor »

Dark Alliance wrote:Shades and DRs are harder for them to take out than you think with their superior movement and ability to march and shoot.

Skirmishers can't march and shoot?
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Post by Dark Alliance »

That part of my comment was referring to the DRs :D
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Nartzim wrote:I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!


Okay hug is fine just watch where those hands go!
I'm no tactical God I just get ideas..dangerous things those.
When I open my new games store :D I will get more time to play test other ideas I have had.

Thanks
John
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Nartzim wrote:I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!


Okay hug is fine just watch where those hands go!
I'm no tactical God I just get ideas..dangerous things those.
When I open my new games store :D I will get more time to play test other ideas I have had.

Thanks
John
" If I wanted to roll a million dice I'd play Yahtzee!"
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Nartzim wrote:I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!


Okay hug is fine just watch where those hands go!
I'm no tactical God I just get ideas..dangerous things those.
When I open my new games store :D I will get more time to play test other ideas I have had.

Thanks
John
" If I wanted to roll a million dice I'd play Yahtzee!"
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Nartzim wrote:I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!


Okay hug is fine just watch where those hands go!
I'm no tactical God I just get ideas..dangerous things those.
When I open my new games store :D I will get more time to play test other ideas I have had.

Thanks
John
" If I wanted to roll a million dice I'd play Yahtzee!"
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Malekithau
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Post by Malekithau »

Nartzim wrote:I just wanna give Malekithau a BIG hug! But now the tactical GOD Malekithau has refined my tactics, THANKS!


Okay hug is fine just watch where those hands go!
I'm no tactical God I just get ideas..dangerous things those.
When I open my new games store :D I will get more time to play test other ideas I have had.

Thanks
John
" If I wanted to roll a million dice I'd play Yahtzee!"
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Aêstord geliândor
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Post by Aêstord geliândor »

wow 5 posts all the same! Is that record or something? ;)
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Cervix
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Post by Cervix »

And one big HUG from me to! You opened a new way to play!! :D And its very druchii-like! :twisted:
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Drachanthir
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Post by Drachanthir »

I'm currently having great success with my MSU lists. I tend to have a big unit if spears as a safety net and go a little character-heavy. Mostly infantry at the minute- ppl shoot up dark riders too much in my group.
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Archimedes_dioxide
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Post by Archimedes_dioxide »

O.k., I have just a single question.

You said that you have usually your units in 5x2, right?

How do you manouver through a battle line with a frontage of 5 units? It's just as cumbersome as a standard 5x4 line.

Otherwise, great work!
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Drachanthir
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Post by Drachanthir »

If you're confident or good at passing panic tests, it allows you to have two or three units occupying roughly the same area as one big unit, which makes counter-charges and multi-charges easier if you angle the units correctly.
"I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the heads of the leaders of the enemy."
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High handed executioner
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Post by High handed executioner »

The MSU tactic... it really is the best way to fight dude... actually I have always played my elves ranked up! Untill 'bout a month ago! I wonder if it works with High Elves... prolly does... it's almost the same after all.(not that I play the pesky lil High "Elves")

Thank you for your insight!
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Cardinal fang
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Post by Cardinal fang »

Archimedes_Dioxide wrote:O.k., I have just a single question.

You said that you have usually your units in 5x2, right?

How do you manouver through a battle line with a frontage of 5 units? It's just as cumbersome as a standard 5x4 line.

Otherwise, great work!


Set up your units in two or more lines, this way you have more depth in your formation, and units in the second line can be committed to hot-spots after the first line has engaged. It's a bit tricky to perform in a game but well worth it for the tactical possibilities and enjoyment it creates.

Cheers,
Cardinal Fang
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