Cracking down on pointless posts

/\\//\ · Post by **/\\//\** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:33 pm

I am becoming increasingly annoyed with the 'What's your favourite unit/army/magic item/magic lore?' posts. They have all been done and it seems it's just newbies trying to get their post count up who don't really care about the results. It's obvious people are going to have different opinions and since no-one really asks why you think what you think you get other newbies just posting 'Cold One Knights/Dark Elves/GoP/Dark Magic' or something and that's it.

Maybe I'm just annoyed at the moment. I almost see this stuff as spam. What does everyone else think?

Leithel and odd · Post by **Leithel and odd** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:41 pm

There are a lot of posts that come up a lot on these forums. Usually them come from new users who do not realise that these topics have been covered many times before.

How do you pronounce Druchii is one, is Khaine Khorne is another... I'm sure you've seen them before.

What's your favorite core/special/rare/magic item/spell/donut (you get the point) is another. Because they are usulaly from new users I am hesitant to lock these threads because I believe it's a good idea to give newbies a little leway to get them into the community. If there are a couple of the same thread going on, I'll lock one and point people to the other.

As I see it, as long as the title is on topic and the thread is related to the Druchii and fites within our rules I'll not lock it for now. You can able to read the title and skip over it if you know it's been covered before and don't wish to read it.

Leithel

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:42 pm

/\\// wrote:I am becoming increasingly annoyed with the 'What's your favourite unit/army/magic item/magic lore?' posts. They have all been done and it seems it's just newbies trying to get their post count up who don't really care about the results. It's obvious people are going to have different opinions and since no-one really asks why you think what you think you get other newbies just posting 'Cold One Knights/Dark Elves/GoP/Dark Magic' or something and that's it.

Maybe I'm just annoyed at the moment. I almost see this stuff as spam. What does everyone else think?

i also feel the same way,

but i do not yet have a strategy for dealing with this

Comrade Igor

Amarel · Post by **Amarel** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:59 pm

I don't mind them so much as sometimes I think it's a way for the new guys to introduce themselves. If it really becomes a problem then simply collate data (e.g. people's opinions on the most powerful Lore and why) and ask a Mod if it can be made sticky to prevent people asking all the time.

Amarel.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:53 am

I do tend to agree with you, especially as many of these are polls ( which are my pet hate at the moment ). This is an ongoing discussion with the Admin forum at present, seeking to find a workable solution.

Teifion · Post by **Teifion** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:06 pm

Dark Alliance wrote:I do tend to agree with you, especially as many of these are polls ( which are my pet hate at the moment ). This is an ongoing discussion with the Admin forum at present, seeking to find a workable solution.

What sort of solutions are being considered ?

Will they become permenant ?

The word of pain · Post by **The word of pain** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:47 pm

I think you should stop and take stock of what you are saying... I bet if you looked up your user name and went to the 'See all posts by this user' function. Then went back to your old and dark beginnings your'll find that you will have posted similar posts way bavck then as well. If you then searched hard enough, your'll probably find other/older posts by other users.
You must remember that this a chat community therefore people will chat about what the y want to chat about. If you don't like a particular post, don't get involved. There is no rule to say you have to....
IMO the only time Mods should get involved is with either constant spamming or any form of flaming.... then we can go in and sort it out. Just because someone wants to ask questions about the GoP or a particular tactic, let them... if your bored by the same topics, don't bother replying... I myself and getting fed up of users posting replies like...

'This is a useless post as it was covered before...'

It's insulting...
It doesn't help the original poster...
it's only for self gratification...

Something along the lines of...

'We discussed this back in April last year... check out THIS post' would be much more useful and may even lead to further discussion along another line that others hadn't thought of back in April.

As experianced memebrs of Druchii we should help and support newbies, not trest them as slaves and expect them to stay...

Just my 2 pennneth...

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:15 pm

I agree with WoP here. I've been trying to post a link to a similar thread/poll if I notice thy are very much the same.
To me polls look like easy posts for anyone participating. Most replies are close to spam IMO. When they just write what they voted for.

Ex:
"Which do you like the best, the new or the old Cold Ones?"
"Old for me"

Sha'a'alaar · Post by **Sha'a'alaar** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:52 pm

Isn't this one more of those "growing pain" things that this site will have to live with somehow?

I think the more liberal views here are the best (i.e. we need to let neewbies, like me, have a place for "discussion" of silly questions/old chestnuts). And over time, such as after the revision, some of the previous discussions of a topic will be outdated.

Also, we don't have to participate in them - I've read far more threads than I've contributed to. The trick is deciding whether I've got something useful to add (hope this falls into that category) or not.

Actually, I often look at the name of the person starting/commenting on the thread and decide whether to read it. You could all probably guess the list of "good" names.

Sha'a'alaar

Zentaricai · Post by **Zentaricai** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:16 pm

You know--not that anyone probably cares... but I started coming to this website back in March 03' --I still find it fun and a great site--but here's whats happening--I log in and there are 800+ new posts, at that point I start to dig through all the stupid polls like (what's you favorite finger?) etc..., get frustrated and leave becasuse there is just sooooo much shiz to dig through.

I now just find myself cruising for familiar posters and read their articles...

That's my two cents...errr uhh, gold pieces...

Post by **Sneaky** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:37 pm

That's because we get a lot of new users coming in all the time. This is not a growing pain, but rather I think it is a mark that Druchii.net has become a very successful site. The fact that we get that number of people posting in here is a testament to something strange in the world of Warhammer - a race specific board has become very popular.

Look at it this way: the number of idiot posts here is far smaller than on bigger boards like the GW boards and a few others that I know of (not Warhammer related).

Teifion · Post by **Teifion** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:42 pm

As I see it there are two reasons that Druchii.net growing so much recently. 1) GW have mentioned it in White Dwarf. 2) Everybody told their friends.

Mtucache · Post by **Mtucache** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:07 pm

Excellent topic here, as I've found myself getting pretty annoyed by this as well.

After reading the posts by some of our more patient members, I've come to "see the light", and I now understand that this is simply part of being on a large, popular forum. You're always going to have these popping up, and treating them harshly isn't going to stop them, it will only make the new member feel like he doesn't like this site anymore.

I've had a very similar experience with another very large board that I was involved in for quite a while http://www.geocaching.com. Although this is a totally different hobby than Warhammer, the amount of questions and new members is roughly equivalent to this site when thier boards were new. They developed very quickly as geocaching became more popular, and suddenly they found their forums being invaded by literally hundreds of new members per week. The more experienced members got into the habit of "markwelling" repetitive subjects (providing a link to an older thread on the same subject) without explanation. With the increase in new members, the "markwelling" got out of control and soon it became regarded as a slap in the face as experienced members were being "markwelled" by newer members. Currently the atmosphere at the geocaching.com forums is very combatitive, and most new members have started to avoid them as they see how many "cranky old timers" are in there bashing on the new guys. Gradually members have become more and more involved with smaller, local message boards that deal with their state or region.

What I'm trying to say is....eventually this board will either fade away or grow to a critical mass. Right now we are actually at a very managable size, all we need is a little bit of patience (myself included), and we can bring everyone up to speed. The easier and friendlier we can make this for everyone, the more people will adapt to the community faster.

Orteo · Post by **Orteo** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:13 am

That certainly is a grim picture you paint MTUCache. But definitely something we need to keep in mind. So what is the answer? More mods? I think we have plenty of capable people if the current mods aren't interested in rerouting dozens of threads a day.

Really, though, the pointless threads don't bother me so much as the pointless posts in otherwise high quality thread. I have seen on more than one occassion where a good thread on an army list was interrupted by someone with less than 10 posts sharing their completely unrelated list for no apparent reason. I hate to sound discriminating or concited, but I think the mods should focus more on cleaning the good threads (we all know the difference). The poor ones can wallow. If some of our members want to do that, let them. No skin off my back.

Drakken · Post by **Drakken** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:39 am

Part of the problem with what you described Orteo is that it isn't always new people with 10 posts adding things pointless garbage to a discussion. Post count in honest has nothing to do with quality of thought process.

But the problem we're having here isn't just quality of post, its sheer quanity. There are still good discussions to be had, new ideas to be explored, the problem becomes that amount of material you have to shift through to find it. I'm regularly noticing 5-800 new posts a day, and in that amount, avoiding duplication is almost impossible, and its not just the polls and non-core book rules question (GoP and Hydras being answered weekly still), I find the Army Lists forum is hive of fairly similar ideas a tweak or 2 different spread across 5-6 lists in different threads. The search function has finally started to rear its wonderful head, as I've noticed a shinkage in the number of simple questions, not a huge shirnkage, but its a start. I don't know, maybe I'm just a little to melancholoy to consider possible solutions right now...

Mtucache · Post by **Mtucache** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:22 pm

Orteo wrote:That certainly is a grim picture you paint MTUCache. But definitely something we need to keep in mind. So what is the answer? More mods? I think we have plenty of capable people if the current mods aren't interested in rerouting dozens of threads a day.

Actually, more moderating was another reason that the geocaching.com forums have become so combatitive. Rather than becoming a part of the community, and adding to the conversation, the mods seemed to be so busy locking topics and deleting posts that they were looked at in a tyrannical sort of way. Repetitive or nonsense topics would be started by newer members, and instead of gentle guidance by the older members, you'd end up with 15 posts asking for the topic to be locked and 15 more saying the original poster was an idiot....Instead of getting to know the people who run the forums, people instead saw them as distant, aloof, lock-happy mods who didn't have time to help out the new members and instead spent all their time catering to the wishes of the older members.

It wasn't actually the mods fault, they just became so overwhelmed as the community grew that they didn't have time anymore to converse with other posters. Eventually, geocaching.com decided to bring in more moderators. Unfortunately, they chose most of the older members to be the new moderators, and instead of the behavior changing, you'd just get topics locked faster. They were so focused on having serious, on-topic threads that the environment became very stiff and uncomfortable.

I think the key is less moderating and more self-monitoring. As older members, we need to accept a certain amount of junk topics that we don't like, and give new members a grace period after they join to get some gentle guidance towards the rest of the community. Moderators should be monitoring the content of the posts, not the quality or relevance of them....every attempt should be made to eliminate flaming and personal attacks. This will make the new members feel more welcome, and give them a reason to improve the quality of their posts. I've learned that things like grammar and spelling aren't likely to improve over time unless they see that other posts are articulate and intelligent....then they'll follow suit.

One thing to remember here: When a new member posts a topic that we see as junk, there are three ways we can respond.
1.) Flame them and tell them that these type of topics are stupid. (This automatically turns them off to the forum and makes them feel unwelcome.)
2.) Remind them that nonsense posts are spam and that he should really avoid posting things like this. (Even if this is less threatening, this still makes them feel unwelcome.)
3.) Ignore them. Eventually they'll get the picture when no one responds to thier topic. It will sink to the bottom of the lists and they will start to contribute to some of the other relevant topics. No threatening, no feeling of unwelcome.....just a gentle nudge.

/\\//\ · Post by **/\\//\** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:26 pm

The stuff that I think most of us can agree on is when people post stuff such as "I agree with X." or "Looks a good list!" and that is their post. These are people simply trying to boost their post count without having to think or spend ages on what they are saying.

Drasanil · Post by **Drasanil** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:47 pm

/\\// wrote:The stuff that I think most of us can agree on is when people post stuff such as "I agree with X." or "Looks a good list!" and that is their post. These are people simply trying to boost their post count without having to think or spend ages on what they are saying.

I agree with /\\//\

But more seriously when I was a mod, I would delete most of these "Looks nice" or "I agree" post as they were(and still are IMO) spam. I`m surprised the others haven`t caught on since, the person who usualy posts this will rarely check up on the topic again and won`t even notce it was deleted. Which shoes you just how much interest they had in it to start off with.

Mtucache · Post by **Mtucache** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:03 pm

I'd have to disagree with you guys here....I'm not sure why you'd want to delete anyone's posts....

Why does it matter if people don't explain their reasonings when they agree or disagree with someone? A simple "yes" or "no" can often be just as helpful if that's what you're looking for.

Why does it matter if someone is constantly posting like this to get their find count up? Yes, it may get tedious to read a bunch of posts with five words or less, but does it really matter? Why take the time to implement guidelines for posting length, and why spend the effort to enforce them? You'll just end up with a lot of upset people who can't understand why their posts are being deleted. Even if their intent is to boost their find count, they'll soon tire of it and quit....

I really don't think there is anyone here who is trying to inflate thier post count....at least not anyone who has gotten past the "slave" title.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:25 pm

MTUCache wrote:I really don't think there is anyone here who is trying to inflate thier post count....at least not anyone who has gotten past the "slave" title.

Very wrong. Rememer that we have about 4500 members, of which 3500 has actually posted anything. How many of those can you remember? Those who are posting serious posts and replies get known. Those who aren't known are mostly posting spam to get their title up and be "respected" on the site.
You will probably say that many peope don't look at the title of a member, but people do. Realize the facts. A member which has spamed it's way up in ranks will be taken more serious if the one reading his post doesn't know who he is, then a member who are struggeling to post god and interesting posts.
There are a lot of people who have more then 500 post which I never know who they are, and there are those with far less posts but whom I will remember due to their quality of posting. It is unfair that spam will give a member more "punch" in a thread then one who has only posted a few but very rewarding posts. Ask someone of the other Mods/Black Guards or Admins for a bit clearer information on this issue.

Lord N

Drasanil · Post by **Drasanil** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:35 pm

MTUCache wrote:I'd have to disagree with you guys here....I'm not sure why you'd want to delete anyone's posts....

Well you would want to delete some one`s post because they are spaming.

Why does it matter if people don't explain their reasonings when they agree or disagree with someone? A simple "yes" or "no" can often be just as helpful if that's what you're looking for.

Actualy it does matter especialy if you disagree with some one, if you simply say "I disagree" or "I agree" people who have a point of view opposed to it can`t really reply to that because you haven`t given any reason why its good/bad, therefor it doesn`t incourage conversation and debating, and its done is inflate your post count, which in my book is spam.

Why does it matter if someone is constantly posting like this to get their find count up?

It wastes bandwith with mindles dribble

Yes, it may get tedious to read a bunch of posts with five words or less, but does it really matter?

Yes it does, it can reserect long dead topics which no one will pay attention to a clog up the first page, and most users only check out the first page of each forum, so they would be missing out.

Why take the time to implement guidelines for posting length, and why spend the effort to enforce them?

Because it is a moderators job to make sure the forums are free of spam, flaming etc etc...

You'll just end up with a lot of upset people who can't understand why their posts are being deleted. Even if their intent is to boost their find count, they'll soon tire of it and quit....

Well I doubt they even notice since most of them never bother to check up on threads where they simply said "I agree" because they know they have left no oppertunity for some one to reply to them. And no some don`t and won`t quit.

I really don't think there is anyone here who is trying to inflate thier post count....at least not anyone who has gotten past the "slave" title.

It has happened more than once, and if people don`t want to inflate post counts why don`t they just take the time to make a post which invites debating and conversation, instead of just cluttering up the place with "I agree".

Mtucache · Post by **Mtucache** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:21 pm

@LN

Okay, I see your point...I understand that people put a bit more weight when reading a post from someone who has a lot of posts. I myself haven't seen any particular cases of spamming just to get your find count way up, but then again, I haven't been here very long. I can certainly see where someone would regard your opinion with a more thought than they would to mine.

However, the main point of my previous two points remains the same.

Locking threads and deleting posts is not what needs to start happening. Chastising people in public and pointing out their shortcomings in front of others will only make new members less likely to come back. This hostility creates a very uncomfortable environment for all. In my opinion, locking threads and deleting posts should be reserved for only the most obvious case of spamming, or topics which have become personal attacks on another member.

Defining "rules" for what qualifies as spam, and locking threads after they go off topic for x number of posts is a very slippery slope. Eventually you'll end up with topics started just to argue about why others were locked. You'll get people who've had 10 posts deleted posting 15 new ones about how unfair the policies are. You'll have people posting to threads complaining about how off-topic the conversation is getting and specifically asking the mods to lock or delete posts. At some point you'll be forced to start banning people who won't stop complaining. Puppet accounts will start showing up complaining about why their other account has been banned......very slippery slope.

Once the hammers start falling, you'll have people crying all over.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:31 pm

MTUCache wrote: Locking threads and deleting posts is not what needs to start happening. Chastising people in public and pointing out their shortcomings in front of others will only make new members less likely to come back. This hostility creates a very uncomfortable environment for all. In my opinion, locking threads and deleting posts should be reserved for only the most obvious case of spamming, or topics which have become personal attacks on another member.

That's why most of us mods start with a post saying tat the member has been spamming and we wish it to stop. We don't delete on sight unless it is a clear case of spamming (lots of exactly similar posts in a short period of time). If the spammer ignores our warning the posts will get deleted and he might receive an official warning and his first and only strike is gone. Next time he's banned.

Defining "rules" for what qualifies as spam, and locking threads after they go off topic for x number of posts is a very slippery slope. Eventually you'll end up with topics started just to argue about why others were locked. You'll get people who've had 10 posts deleted posting 15 new ones about how unfair the policies are. You'll have people posting to threads complaining about how off-topic the conversation is getting and specifically asking the mods to lock or delete posts......very slippery slope.

Once the hammers start falling, you'll have people crying all over.

If they start complaining about unfairness on our policies they are ignoring most of the norms of human behaviour. We don't expect people to be saints, but if they start to take advantage of anyone, if they start to flame anyone or if ty do anything else like that on this site, we have to take action.
I just reasently became a Moderator and I'm probably not the best one to argue in this matter, but feel free to send a PM to any of the Admins f you ant a complete set of arguments on why to delete spam.

Lord N

Post by **Underway** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:37 pm

Just becoming a new Mod here I can understand the debate. There is a fine line between locking topics/deleting posts for spam and letting a conversation develop. For example in the SCO forum there were a number of different topics that all evolved to "alliances talk" a few of these I locked due to redundancy. There were also quite a few posts I deleted because they were not on topic at all.
Not spam, but something that abosolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Another thing, people may start off looking at someones post count when they start here, but they quickly learn who they want to listen to. For example it didn't take me overly long to start paying attention to what MTUCatche wrote even though he has less than 300 posts. Conversely I don't pay much attention to a number of other peoples posts even thought they are well over 500.

I think the readers are smart enough to mature into good posters with some guidance and patience. Not lock happy mods.

Nagathi · Post by **Nagathi** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:39 pm

Underway wrote:I think the readers are smart enough to mature into good posters with some guidance and patience. Not lock happy mods.

Precisely my point. If we mods are a bit patient and gives advice at first then all will be good. But as I said, if the member continues - action is required.

Cracking down on pointless posts

Cracking down on pointless posts

Re: Cracking down on pointless posts