Chaos exploit

[Myelisik]

Anyone else pissed about this tactic.

Ok most of this will sound standard until the end so read through.

18 Chosen warriors of Tzeetch with favor of the gods on unit champion. And Festus in the unit.
2 War Shrines.

Ok a fairly standard Deathstar, here's the trick.

Favor the gods can be used to modify the UNITS rolls by 1 in the FAQ if it's on the unit champion. So the chaos player tries to roll a 4,5,6,7,8,9 or 10 with the initial roll. He then modifies it to be either a 5,6,8 or 9. Then with his first warshrine he tries to roll something 3 away from his original roll (if 5 then 8, if 6 then 9) With one of the 2 shrines he can usually do it (or just get's an 11 of 12 to ur dismay). After this he can modify a roll of (4),5,6,7,8,9,(10) to something he already has, garnering a re-roll. He will continue to re-roll until he either gets a 2,3,(4 or 10) or the evil 11-12. His chance of getting them are good. With Tzeetch every guy will have a +3 wardsave, festus gives a +5 regen, and they are wearing good armor anyway.

Any rules counter this, cause it's an obvious exploit.

-Myelisik

[Desert icon]

A similar topic discussing this is located here. You should keep in mind next that it's usually worth searching the forums for similar topics before you post, since most likely someone has already asked what you want to know. It will not only save you time by allowing you to see what other people's thoughts on the subject are, but also save space on the forum, since other topics get pushed further back whenever a new one is created.

In regards to the question, it's not really an exploit, it's a perfectly legitimate use of the rules given, albeit a very powerful one (and one that others may or may not look down upon). It's on the same wavelength as the Assassin/Shade displacement technique, just an interesting combination of rules that leads to a potentially devastating result. Also, keep in mind that the Chosen get to re-roll The Eye is Closed and Insanity for their first roll on the table at the beginning of the game. The post I linked to above should give you good tips on how to deal with something like that.

[Silverheimdall]

So I ask you about this "exploit" - what good is it?
Stay away from that unit or just redirect it or feed it low cost sacrificial units.

Its M4. Slow slow slow wall coming at you.

Avoid it, destroy the warshrines instead (easily done by breaking them in close combat).

[Arquinsiel]

For those of us who don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about....

Could you explain yourself more clearly? Full sentences and bullet points might help, as well as a basic premise and/or goal.

[Myelisik]

shrines are hard to get to as they are RIGHT behind the unit. As for shooting with what? Rxbs hit on 5s wound on 5s he gets a 5+ armor 3+ ward and 5+ regen. RPT hit of 4s would on 4s 6 up armor save 3+ward and 5+ regen (24 shots 12 hit 6 wound, AS drops 1, WS drops 3, Regen drops 1)

All the while he's got 3 disks coming at my bolt throwers 2 with 3+ wards against shooting/nonmagic. And 2 units of riders. If i take out the riders and discs his wall hits, if i don't they kill the shooting. I charged the unit with a dragon in the rear, a chariot, cold one knights and 30 warriors with a KB +D3 attacks assassin. Lost combat by 7.

warshrine gifts don't ware off when dead, at least he claims that and it looks like it at brief glance of his rulebook, so killing them after doesn't really seem to matter

[Silverheimdall]

Chosen of Chaos, with a Champion that has some 5 pt item for a +/- 1 on the Eye of the Gods table, aiming at the "4+ Ward Save Stubborn" Gift (double 6 result).

They get to reroll this result if they ever get a 2 or a 7, or something they already have - warshrines grant a roll on the eye of the gods table for 1 unit within x inches.

So, on top of the Chosen's initial gift, rerolling duplicates, rerolling 2s and rerolling 7s... they can reroll a whole lot often until they get double 6s and with Mark of Tzeentch, the 4+ ward becomes 3+ ward.. for the whole unit, on top of their armor save (usually 3+/2+ in CC unless they have other weapons).

Its boring for the chaos player's opponent.


------

Anyway, not much you can do other than staying away from that unit - take out the rest of his army. And that Golden Eye of Tzeentch does not affect Spells per say, only Magic Missiles - which many spells are NOT. Use those instead. Bladewind if you go dark magic, or steal soul if you go Death magic, etc. Lots of spells bypass the golden eye of tzeentch so no 3+ ward save for him. If its an Exalted on a Disc, use Metal magic and melt his heroes away. Spirit of the Forge and even the 1st spell in Metal ignore the Golden Eye.

Also if he has multiple discs, big deal, one of them has the Golden Eye, the rest should be easy to take down.

[Myelisik]

exactly and i thought rerolled rerolls were supposed to be rare, not something you could get by modifying something with a gift.

[Silverheimdall]

You need to read the Chaos book a bit more I think.
You need to play magic against him obviously:

Armor of Morrslieb 4+ ward save against nonmagical (3+ ward as tzeentch)

Use magic against this, even magic missiles. Will only give him 6+ ward save, if he's fully armored, go Lore of Metal

Golden Eye of Tzeentch 4+ ward against normal missiles and magical missiles (3+ ward as tzeentch)

Use Lore of Metal if he has a high armor save... Use Death Magic (the 2nd spell ignores armor save and will ignore his 3+ ward save, leaving him with a 6+ ward save)

Use your RBTs and whatnot to take out other targets.
Delay his Discs by sending harpies at him - you don't even have to charge with those harpies, simply use them in a manner he will be unable to charge your RBTs right away.

He can still charge them and overrun into the RBTs, anyway, delay him.

[Desert icon]

Yep, yep, listen to Silver. You're just getting all worked up over a non-issue, really. Heavy magic, lots of bolt throwers, and loads and loads of Harpies and Dark Riders is the answer. A lot of maneuverability and shooting/magic will annoy him to death. Slaughter his support units and characters, and lead the block of doom by the nose by Harpy baiting. The annoyance of not having his block of doom in combat (ever) or go where he wants it to go will very much discourage him from using that block again.

And honestly, what does that thing cost, like a thousand points? Taking of course into account all the extra goodies you have to pay for to get it to that level (warshrines, characters, etc.), that thing is going to severely limit everything else in his army. Agreed so far with every one of Silver's points.

Also, I'm not sure if anything in that unit causes Fear or is immune to psychology... you could always Fear auto-break him, even if he is stubborn.

[Myelisik]

Icon, his unit isn't frenzied so leading his unit around doesn't help much. If i try to charge and then flee to bait a pursue it won't even work (he usually just kills any minor units outright).

The magic might work, but he's got a couple scrolls so it's not going to be easy. And those discs hunt down my sorceress quickly. RxBs and 4 Bolt throwers will cause 1-2 wounds a turn (combined).

Fear auto break is a possibility, but i'd need a LARGE fear unit to do it, and i'd have to win combat. He gets something like 25 str 6 attacks to his front.

The unit is like 1200 points, his core is 3 units of marauder horsemen. He's got the shrines the disk riders and a unit of 5 knights. Tiny army, but it's hard to get VPs off of.

I can avoid engagement but my riders usually get hunted by disks, my bolt throwers by riders, my knights by his knights (he waits for mine to be stupid). It's usually something like i get 600 VPs and he gets 900 VPs because i avoid his huge unit and can't track down all the disc riders.

I beat the unit once by using a Black guard unit 7x3 (-1) with ASF banner. With a Dreadlord using Exec axe, and assassin, Kouran, and a Hydra banner BSB. Cauldron gave me KB. Something about 30 ASF KB attacks did the unit in . But that list is worthless against anyone with shooting. (my unit matched his unit in points)

[The buoyancy of water]

Hi,

Everyone seems to be assuming you know which disc riders have which protective items. You won't know who has what, so your first magic/shooting phase will be subpar as you will inevitably hit the wrong sorcerer with the wrong things. His turn 1-2 is more then enough time to deal with even 4 bolt throwers through magic missiles and such. Also, you forgot Fury of the Blood God, which gives MR(2) and a 4(3)+ ward against magic, so the sorcerers can easily be protected against magic.

I ran a Chaos list with two disc riding sorcerers and a daemon prince of Tzeentch. Between my two sorcerers one had the enchanted shield and that was all the protective gear they needed. They very rarely get killed by shooting because they can fly to somewhere where only one bolt thrower/RXB unit can see them and promptly blow that unit up!!

While I think there are ways to deal with this Chaos list, I don't think saying "shoot and magic all his stuff" is the way to go about it. You need to flank charge a chosen block with a unit that can reliably kill 3 chosen. Sadly, this gets harder the more upgrades he gets...

Sorry this turned into a bit of a ramble!!

Cheers,
Dave

P.S. Just realised Festus was there too, so wizards will be sniped out of units pretty quickly...

[Shrike]

Seems a bit sad to see a Dark Elf player with a flipping Dragon getting annoyed over a Warriors of Chaos build. This unit hideously expensive, well over 1000 points including the Warshrines.

He doesn't get the 3+ ward save straight away, within two turns possibly. So make the use of your first couple of turns, blast them as best you can. You can even charge your Dragon straight into the unit, you don't need to be subtle. He has to challenge, so you'll kill either the Favour Champion or Festus straight away- if you can place the Dragon in contact with both of them, you'll get them both within two turns.

You know what's even funnier? This unit has no immunity to terror until they take the EotG result. That gives you a 25% chance of having the unit run away the first time your Dragon gets nearby. Good game!

Buoyancy, you make some good points but we can work through them. So in the magic phase you blast one of the Disc Riders. For a start it's really unlikely they'd bother with Fury of the Blood God on a Disc Rider, that's a rubbish idea. But let's go with it:

Magic phase: Rule of Burning Iron on a Disc Rider. Assume it gets through:
IF 3+ ward vs non-magic, he'll probably take damage. Use your RBt on the other 2!
IF 3+ ward vs shooting, it don't work! Make sure you keep targetting him with magic.
IF 3+ ward vs spells, then his other protection is weak- put all your shooting into him, easy!
Use some nice simple logical thinking and you'll work out who is vulnerable to what, and you'll get them in the end. You don't want the game handed to you on a plate do you?

[Marauder mitch2]

I played a lit like that with my Dragon DE's 1 rear charge later and it was dead. The important thing is place of units they want to gateway off anf put them in positions he will find it harder to get in the 24" range, Kill his support and march block him. Harpies can also pin wizards.

[Myelisik]

harpies pinning the wizards is perfect, thanks. As for the dragon charges i'm with marauder, tried and done. 9 attacks against armor regen and ward save isn't enough. I actually came up with my own plan (finally).

Suicide 2 chariots in after a round of shooting. Hopefully knock the rank down to 2, charge dragon into now smaller flank for no attacks back.

BTWs Buoyancy u just restated like 3 battle against that list, he did what u said exactly every time. It was a nightmare .

[Marauder mitch2]

Where did the dragon charge as even with the ward save you have rear and after grinding a bit with CD and a Dragon it is reaching auto break terrorty.

[Myelisik]

dragon charges rear, 4 in base contact. Dragon + rider have 9 str 6 attacks (i use CD) 7-8 hit 6 wounds. 4 ward saved, 1 regened. He turns around with 12 str 6 attacks on the dragon 6 hit, 3 wound, maybe 1 saved. He outnumbers has a banner did 2-3 wounds, I have a rear and a kill. Lose by 1-2, he turns to face leaving festus and unit champion out of base contact (6 wide he puts them on edges). 9 attacks 5 hit (dragon hits on 4s), 4 wound, questionable if i cause a wound. 12-16 Str 6 attacks, dragon dies. Any questions?

With flank i challenge festus or unit champion. Kill and don't get attacked back.

[Shrike]

Chaos Warriros have 4 S6 attacks each now?

[Myelisik]

chosen great weapons and Eye of Gods roll

[Dalamar]

Have you tried sniping Festus out of the unit with Rule of Burning Iron?
I'm not sure about his armour but he has to have at least Chaos Armour, which gives him 4+ armour save.
S4 no AS flaming attacks will get him killed pretty quickly.

If that doesn't work just ignore the slow ponderous unit and take care of the rest of his army. This is where harpies are perfect.

[The buoyancy of water]

Yeah chosen can be nasty. I recently fought a unit where the basic guys had 3 S7 attacks!! And they were lead by Sigvald for another 7 S5 ASF attacks...

With enough warshrines you can produce some hideous units. My friend normally plays one that could be considered more unkillable then Myelisik's problem unit.

Cheers,
Dave

[Sulla]

Have you tried sniping Festus out of the unit with Rule of Burning Iron?
I'm not sure about his armour but he has to have at least Chaos Armour, which gives him 4+ armour save.
.

He has no armour, just regen. He's like a doctor gone insane. Typical nurgle archetype.

Seems a bit sad to see a Dark Elf player with a flipping Dragon getting annoyed over a Warriors of Chaos build. This unit hideously expensive, well over 1000 points including the Warshrines.

Hard to disagree with this. I think the Chaos player should be commended for bring that big an investment in infantry. Knights and magic are much more of a no-brainer for him...

[Shrike]

Although with 3 guyso no Discs and Doc Festus, it doesn't sound like an especially fluffy list... Nurgle and Tzeentch worknig together, disgusting!

chosen great weapons and Eye of Gods roll

That's still only 2 attacks basic, +1 for Eye of the Gods... unless they're frenzied in which case, well, if you can't win that, I suggest you go buy a Daemon army

[Bies]

I've played a similiar unit (the report is somewhere on W-E I can post it for you if you're interested).

The difference is the unit is then led by Sigvald so stubborn 10 as well and can move through terrain.

that is a fun unit!!

The unit has mark of tzeentch and rage banner while the shrines also have mark of tzeentch (so 3+ ward save) idea being you go for the 4+ward save so the entire unit has a 3+ ward, cause fear, stubborn 10, 3 attacks per model at str4 or str6 (possibly higher if the 2nd shrine gets it). And a 5+ regen when festus is in the unit.

But it does move 4"

And here's the kicker it can be beaten by Empire swordsmen with a bsb and general of the empire, I know as I've done it (I charged into the flank, won by 4 my opponent rolled a 7 and I danced around the table only to be told they were stubborn 10 and began to cry with angst).

So it's not unbeatable and we're the druchii- like we could be scared of some dumb northern brutes.

[The buoyancy of water]

Hi,

Actually Sigvald and his unit cannot be marchblocked, so they have a move of 8 at all times. I fought a unit of chosen with Sigvald and it wasn't pleasent. I had to sacrifice my TK chariots with prince to keep them out the rest of the battle. Was only possible because my opponent deployed them on a flank though.

If used properly chosen are not easy to redirect. Remember WoC has access to cheap core fast cav as well as hounds and disc riders. You can guarante a smart opponent will focus everything on your harpies and dark riders to stop them baiting. They tend to be very tough against shooting too.

From my experience fighting chosen many times I would say they are a lot harder to redirect/shoot then most people seem to believe. Their Eye of the Gods rolls make them nasty, but in different ways every battle. I think you need to either focus everything on them or try to avoid them with your expensive units, which is often not easy...

Cheers,
Dave

[Viper]

I thought that you can never re-roll a dice more then once (check BRB)