Why Cheese is Bad

Thenick18 · Post by **Thenick18** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:43 pm

Can someone give me some insight on why cheese is bad and frowned upon. I can't seem to convince my friend why running a doomwheel i n a 500pt game can be and is over the top. Is there a post that explains why certain things are cheese and not at certain levels? I'm trying to explain he won't get many matches in our upcoming campaign because there will be people that won't be able to deal with that at 500pts. I'm kind of looking for just a generic reasoning.

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:54 pm

I would say cheese is bad, especially in lower points games, because lower points armies do not have anything that can deal with larger stronger targets. This gives the player with the huge cheesy item in their list a disproportionate to points advantage (this is why I never take a hydra under 1500). This makes the game a fully uphill struggle for the other player, and after all, warhammer is a game. It can be competetive if you go to tournaments, but it is primarily a game. Games are meant to be fun. If you are going with a cheesy army, you are ensuring that the game is not fun for anyone. It is never fun to beat the snot out of someone without any challenge, and the receiving end is much less fun. If you are prone to making the game not fun for anyone, nobody will want to play with you, and they cannot be blamed for it. Thats my 2 cents.

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:56 pm

No need to explain, swap lists, he'll understand.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:49 pm

I can't seem to convince my friend why running a doomwheel i n a 500pt game can be and is over the top.

Let him keep on running it. He'll figure it out when no one agrees to play him after a bit...

Zenith · Post by **Zenith** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:02 pm

Then just field a war hydra yourself

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:49 am

My bet is on the Doomwheel, there's a high chance it will kill the War Hydra with its D6 Wound zapping.

Vesidel · Post by **Vesidel** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:52 am

The biggest factor in cheese is communal opinion. I know game groups where they try to break the rules and look down on anyone who isn't bringing their so called "A game" to every battle.

I know other groups where they go so far as to forbid certain units and combos because they want to foster a false balance between the army book.

The best type of group in my opinion is one where they let you experiment with whatever you want and people end up not always bringing things that are too powerful because they either want a challenge or they simply want to try other things.

Morderith · Post by **Morderith** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:08 am

Cheese is great, especially with wine.

Or with whine. There are a few things you can do against a cheesy list. Complain and get into an argument with the person you are playing against, not have a good time playing the game.

or

Use the knowledge you have gained from joining druchii.net

and exploit his massively one sided army. Thus engaging your mind and attempting to find a hole in his plan, and thus having a good time playing the game.

Cannot figure out how to beat said cheese list? Ask away and I am sure many people here will be more then willing to offer some advice or suggestions. That being said, try try and try again.

As the saying goes, you can accomplish (win) anything you set your mind (model based army) too, so long as you give it your all.

Case: High elves. When I first started playing against them back in the day they were death on a table. 2 ranks of archers shooting at me from 36 inches as my orcs and gobbos slowly marched toward them. Then as I charge his unit, (I had a choice between spear men or swordmasters, I chose spear men). His three ranks attack first and mincemeat my black orcs. So I whined complained and yelled. Stopped playing the game for some 8 years, and had a misarable time with it. Then came back. Took another look and faced off again against the same opponant, him and his 2 repeater bolt throwers one mage swordmasters archers and spearmen. Looked like I could not win, yet I saw in (what I thought) cheese list a big flaw. A big flaw which my three level 2 goblin shamans made short work of.

Point: Cheese is great. Especially the sharp stuff.

So play him, find his weakness and then just smile as he learns his cheese list is actually his downfall.

However I have strayed highly from your question and I must apologize for that.
In this case I would have to agree with Crawd. Let him play against his own list, see what he thinks. If he doesn't understand well then, he will after the tourny.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:15 am

You could take an avoidance list and completely ignore the Doomwheel. He will then learn your not having fun playing the game, and will learn even faster he wont be having fun because he is chasing dark riders and harpies around the board all game.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:58 am

You can't avoid the doomwheel with an avoidance list.
Its ranged attack will decimate squishy flanking units...

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:46 am

Dalamar wrote:You can't avoid the doomwheel with an avoidance list.
Its ranged attack will decimate squishy flanking units...

Hide behind terrain? Or even better, play cat and mouse with him in some woods.

Venkh · Post by **Venkh** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:42 am

You cant use terrain to hide from the doomwheel. It moves and shoots straight through it.

The best way to deal with it is to ping a wound off it using Magic, RBT's or RXB's and watch it malfunction. Its only T5 4+ save so relly isnt too bad.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:50 pm

Morderith,

Excellent post that I 100% agree with.

I used to have a similar experience back in 4th when playing with my high elves vs my brother's dwarves. I'd try to go toe to toe with him in both missile and fighting and would lose in both (e.g. BS4 with S3 against TV vs BS3 with S4 against T3 = me hitting on 4s at long range and wounding on 5s, him hitting on 5s at long range and wounding on 3s).

15 or so years on, I'd love to go back now and play him again, using the tactics of analyze and exploit like you say

Back to the topic at hand...

Try a variant of this list? a Reaper, an assassin with rending stars and manbane and two core units....

1 Reaper: 100 points
10 RxB: 100 points
10 Warriors: 60 points
1 Assassin + Rnd Strs + Manbane: 145 points
1 Master + Heavy Armour + Great Weapon + Seadragon cloak: 90

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:46 pm

Though I find myself agreeing with both Mederith and Deathknight27 in so far that keeping at it is the way to go, while at every try analyse the performance and use of each unit. This could be said is the basis for all warhammer battles not in all cases as warhammer when at its best isnt X unit trumphs unit Y and unit B trumphs unit Y and unit X trumphs unit B.

I wouldnt dimiss cheese as merely being a lack of investment in your army and tactics as sadly sometimes the notion of unit X trumph Y is true in all but the rarest occassions. Overall though, the challenge of finding a way should be enticing in itself, even though it can be frustrating at times.

A question for the thread-starter;
How does your opponents list look other than the Doomwheel?

Thenick18 · Post by **Thenick18** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:08 pm

He runs, a block of 25 plague monks, and 2 units of 5 slaves. Its a warband campaign. The rest of the list I have no problem with, this weekend we played, and to his dismay, I had black horror as one of my spells, lucky me, I had first turn and 17/25 monks were down for the count. My list comprises of a block of 20 warriors FC, (1) chariot, and 10 xbows, with a lvl 2. Also we had some rule discrepancies about the wheel, in which it all worked in his favor on d6 so the match ended in a draw with both of us accomplishing our secret objectives. The unclear rules of the doomwheel gave him the draw otherwise I would have tabled in turn 3 so needless to say it was disheartening.

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:16 pm

Ah, I see.

Was the discrepancies about its movement, or more specificaly the charging? If he tried to charge something he couldnt see or tried to charge around into your flanks/rear you got cheated. It isnt a all that clear and easy to miss but having 2-3D6 movement value does not mean you're allowed to ignore the rules for charging. The way it seems it is going here in sweden and the national FAQ probably will say this;

1. Roll to determine movement value;
2. Declare a charge; 2a, Charge reactions. 2b, move charges/reactions.
*note; It always move the full distance, even if failing the charge due to the special nature of its movement.
3. If no charge declared. Move the wheel according to the movement roll.

This is of course in no way official but at the same time it works within the current rules and makes alot of sense I think.

Thenick18 · Post by **Thenick18** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:31 pm

well, the main thing that I was screwed on in my opinion was the US of the wheel. I thought it was classified as a warmachine and as such the US is that of the 2 crew. It profiles as a chariot and is also on a chariot base so that was the other way I thought it would be classified, so thus being US 4. He thought it was a monster, 5 wounds so US 5. This would have been make or break because he would have had to break from combat and flee 3d6 straight through the remaining units of his. Instead we d6'ed, he held and my unit was killed by the grind attack next combat round.

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:01 am

I think Morderith is dead wrong.

It's a common mistake. People really into any mechanics system simply say "just play better." but really it's utter nonsense. If two people play "equally" well, a 2000 point army should destroy a 1000 point army.

If two people play "equally" well and one person has a somewhat balanced list from one of the weaker army books and the other person is fielding the most finely tweaked exploit-combos possible, the cheeser should win.

The usual counterpoint attempt is basically assuming he makes mistakes or his army has some fatal flaw. There is no requirement for a strength to have a weakness unless it was designed perfectly (not by some random guys with a short time-frame and only thinking about 2k-ish stuff and in a rush to get products out)

To say something like "There is no cheese" stands upon one vast requirement: that the mechanics are balanced among dozens of lists and at all differing points values.

There is often NO WEAKNESS in a strong unit.

If I go to a 500 point game with 2 war hydras without telling you, it's probably massacre time.

Warhammer is, first and foremost, a system constrained by mathematics. That is why 10 goblin archers won't be destroying 1,000 points of knights no matter how "well" you play or how long you study tacticas online.

Would you complain if you brought a 1k army and then your opponent set down 2k of guys on the table across from you at a tournament?
Would you "whine about it" and "not have fun"?

Anyone with a brain can understand that sometimes it's possible to make a list which will completely RUIN the game in any casual friendly setting. If you want to be "the big man" and "just have fun with how strategic you are" then YOU take a list other people consider handicapped and play that one.

Otherwise you're just a powergamer TFG that wants to sling mud everytime someone calls you out on how terribly unsportsmanlike you're being.

This is all, of course, not applicable to people who know each other and have agreed they will make the most uber-mean-unreal lists to fight each other.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:23 pm

well, the main thing that I was screwed on in my opinion was the US of the wheel. I thought it was classified as a warmachine and as such the US is that of the 2 crew. It profiles as a chariot and is also on a chariot base so that was the other way I thought it would be classified, so thus being US 4. He thought it was a monster, 5 wounds so US 5. This would have been make or break because he would have had to break from combat and flee 3d6 straight through the remaining units of his. Instead we d6'ed, he held and my unit was killed by the grind attack next combat round.

You played it right. The doomwheel is not a warmachine or a chariot. If it were it would have to say so in its special rules. It is a single model on a larger than cavalry base. Therefore, in the absence of any special rules, it has to be a monster.

Ulric darksoul · Post by **Ulric darksoul** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:50 pm

Ant wrote:You played it right. The doomwheel is not a warmachine or a chariot. If it were it would have to say so in its special rules. It is a single model on a larger than cavalry base. Therefore, in the absence of any special rules, it has to be a monster.

i haven't read the rules but, if it hits as a chariot, but does not says it is one, then it's a monster? the statement is somewhat poor. It doesn't says ider (aweful spelling) that is a monster, right?

Kuanor · Post by **Kuanor** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:26 pm

There are monsters also hiting as chariots, afaik.

Desmodeus · Post by **Desmodeus** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:49 pm

Play a 'cheesy' list too... Or just spend some time trying to find a list that'll smash his and get on with it? :p

Drek · Post by **Drek** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:21 pm

I love necromancy.

Where I live there is no such thing as cheese. Everyone takes the hardest, nastiest lists they can. I find it humorous that it's different elsewhere. Is this some kind of chivalry thing? Honor and sportsmanship and all that? Because I'm just not getting it. In any other competitive game, players are expected to bring their best. I just don't see why Warhammer should be different.

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:23 pm

Drek wrote:In any other competitive game, players are expected to bring their best. I just don't see why Warhammer should be different.

Possibly because some players don't play competitive? :shock:

They would play... for... fun?

Drek · Post by **Drek** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:45 pm

That statement is contradictory. Competition is the fun because without competition, there's no game. It's just a couple dudes sitting around looking at models sitting on a table. Which is fine, if that's your thing. But you cannot have the fun without the competition, so why try and limit the competition based on arbitrary standards outside the rules? It does not make sense.