For those interested...
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- Ebonyphoenix
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For those interested...
According to the owner of my local game store, they should be getting a public display/public use copy of 8th edition in today or tomorrow. Naturally, I intend to go sit down with it and take notes. I may not be able to go today due to a tight schedule, but I'm going to try. Life always gets in the way of the important things...
However, for those interested I will post my findings as soon as I can. Due to popular interest (concerns and complaints ) I will be looking primarily at the "new" line of sight, movement phase, the magic phase, and how combat is fought and resolved.
Further details such as special rules and magic items I'll try and view on Saturday, since I should have more free time then.
If you have a answer you would like, feel free to post. Just understand that the more specific the question, the less likely I'll get to it right away as the overall changes to the game are going to take precedence over specific units and scenarios.
*edit per change of title from With A Little Luck...*
However, for those interested I will post my findings as soon as I can. Due to popular interest (concerns and complaints ) I will be looking primarily at the "new" line of sight, movement phase, the magic phase, and how combat is fought and resolved.
Further details such as special rules and magic items I'll try and view on Saturday, since I should have more free time then.
If you have a answer you would like, feel free to post. Just understand that the more specific the question, the less likely I'll get to it right away as the overall changes to the game are going to take precedence over specific units and scenarios.
*edit per change of title from With A Little Luck...*
Last edited by Ebonyphoenix on Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
Its probably silly questions, but what I would like to know is:
Is it fun?
Is it reasonably balanced?
Would you recommend it?
The rest is just details really...
Is it fun?
Is it reasonably balanced?
Would you recommend it?
The rest is just details really...
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
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Red... wrote:Its probably silly questions, but what I would like to know is:
Is it fun?
Is it reasonably balanced?
Would you recommend it?
The rest is just details really...
Probably different for everyone but for me.
It's fun, since I like bloody battles and they are more bloody now.
It's too early to tell how balanced especially since the army book errata is not out. Some armies got buffed some nerfed some stayed the same. Dwarves for example are more competitive. Big gribblies ala Bloodthirster are less scary.
- Arquinsiel
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Requires playing to a degree.Red... wrote:Its probably silly questions, but what I would like to know is:
Is it fun?
Army book issue, not rulebook issue.Red... wrote:Is it reasonably balanced?
Opinion rather than fact. Not hugely useful.Red... wrote:Would you recommend it?
That's where the devil lives.Red... wrote:The rest is just details really...
faerthurir wrote:Arq kicked me in the gyros.
Well, yes and no:
If the game is clearly favouring one type of unit over another, then you can probably get a sense of whether its balanced or not. For example, if the game descends into a question of who has the most archer blocks, then you can guess that its unbalanced towards bowmen, or if the game is won by the traditional twin hydra cheese extraordinare combo, then you can guage that the imbalance of certain big monsters hasn't been fixed.
Some of the imbalances are army book issues, some are rule book issues. The infamous 'autobreak due to a larger unit strength fear/terror causing enemy' rule has reportedly gone, for example (as has the concept of unit strength), and that will have a HUGE impact for certain armies.
There's limited point recieving updates about specific rules, because, well, in isolation they mean little. For example, we know that one rumour is that archers will be able to shoot with the full first two ranks and then 50% of each rank behind that. Will that be balanced? It depends on how the other new rules work: infantry is going to get a boost from 'stepping up', so that might help counteract it, same too for wizards (better basic spells, new magic system), big monsters (impact hits) and artillery (no need to measure anymore), as well as characters (25% heroes and 25% lords, huge number of new common magic items) and so on.
So yeah, the only really meaningful feedback I think is worth getting for me is: does the game - on initial inspection - look fun and balanced.
Of course, it will take time for us to find out if the rules are ultimately balanced and fun, but we can at least guage from early feedback whether they look initially as though they will be!
If the game is clearly favouring one type of unit over another, then you can probably get a sense of whether its balanced or not. For example, if the game descends into a question of who has the most archer blocks, then you can guess that its unbalanced towards bowmen, or if the game is won by the traditional twin hydra cheese extraordinare combo, then you can guage that the imbalance of certain big monsters hasn't been fixed.
Some of the imbalances are army book issues, some are rule book issues. The infamous 'autobreak due to a larger unit strength fear/terror causing enemy' rule has reportedly gone, for example (as has the concept of unit strength), and that will have a HUGE impact for certain armies.
There's limited point recieving updates about specific rules, because, well, in isolation they mean little. For example, we know that one rumour is that archers will be able to shoot with the full first two ranks and then 50% of each rank behind that. Will that be balanced? It depends on how the other new rules work: infantry is going to get a boost from 'stepping up', so that might help counteract it, same too for wizards (better basic spells, new magic system), big monsters (impact hits) and artillery (no need to measure anymore), as well as characters (25% heroes and 25% lords, huge number of new common magic items) and so on.
So yeah, the only really meaningful feedback I think is worth getting for me is: does the game - on initial inspection - look fun and balanced.
Of course, it will take time for us to find out if the rules are ultimately balanced and fun, but we can at least guage from early feedback whether they look initially as though they will be!
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- Ebonyphoenix
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Okay, I got a short (about 10 minutes) look at the new book today. As such I am ready to confirm a few things, while others I will have to wait for my next shot at the book. Overall, I am satisfied with the glimpse. It is definately different, but I think it will be enjoyable if the games play out the way I think they will.
*On a side note...GW already issued a revision placard to the book because they made a typo under one section. Yes, a front and back laminated placard was included with the book.
1 ) True Line of Sight is in. You use models eye view to torso, head, or limb only.
2 ) Measurements are allowed before any action performed.
3 ) Movement is as rumored, M +2D6 for charging, marchblock ignored with a LD check. Flyers have movement 10, Cav will generally get 3D6 pick highest.
4 ) Spells are rolled for. I didn't see a limit of 1 spell per army rule yet.
5 ) Power and Dispel are as rumored with the 2D6 each turn. Highest D6 goes as Dispel Dice. Each wizard can channel and extra dice on a 6, and there is a ceiling on dice of 12 PD or DD at any one time. There is no limit on how many per turn used, just pooled.
6 ) There is both IF and a miscast chart, so RoH will still function.
7 ) Dispel can still IF, but not autofail anymore. It also does not suffer from the miscast chart with an IF.
8 ) Templates are auto-hit unless specified otherwise. Breath attacks are once per game, and may be used as shooting or CC.
9 ) The To-Wound chart will always wound on a 6+, even ST1 versus T10.
10 ) There may not be a +1 to hit when shooting at what was known as a Large Target. I'll look into this further as it may be under a special ruling for Large Targets instead of the To-Hit modifier section.
11 ) In CC, there is both "support" attacks and "horde". All units get support of 1 attack from the 2nd rank minus mounts, if 10+wide the 3rd rank fights with 1 attack as well.
12 ) ASF and great weapons cancel and neither rule is considered to be in effect.
13 ) ASF and same or higher initiative is a reroll to hit.
14 ) VPs are still in with some changes to banners, characters, and other random effects based upon 1 of 6 scenarios.
15 ) Armour modifiers are the same as before, so st4 is still -1.
16 ) Magic resistance is now a ward save. It combines with any others you have, or generates it's own.
17 ) Damage goes in order of Hit, Wound, Armour save, Ward or Regen Save, Multiplied Damage. I may have to revise this upon later readings.
18 ) Regen is lost for the phase if an unsaved flaming wound is inflicted. Example: Spell from lore of Fire works in Magic phase, Regen will work again during shooting phase.
19 ) Flanks and rear charges are based upon position of majority of FRONT rank of unit declaring the charge.
20 ) Hatred does not require pursuit.
21 ) Frenzy can be lost, but charges can be restrained with a LD check.
22 ) Stupidity grants Immune to Psychology as a constant effect.
23 ) Monster and Handlers is changed, I will need to reread for exact details. The only thing I'm sure of is that a unsaved wound on Hydra can randomize to a handler, just not what circumstances.
24 ) There is a lot of magic items listed under a common section with point costs for general access in armies.
As I stated above, this is based upon about 10 minutes worth of reading so please take with a large handful of salt until I can read more later.
*On a side note...GW already issued a revision placard to the book because they made a typo under one section. Yes, a front and back laminated placard was included with the book.
1 ) True Line of Sight is in. You use models eye view to torso, head, or limb only.
2 ) Measurements are allowed before any action performed.
3 ) Movement is as rumored, M +2D6 for charging, marchblock ignored with a LD check. Flyers have movement 10, Cav will generally get 3D6 pick highest.
4 ) Spells are rolled for. I didn't see a limit of 1 spell per army rule yet.
5 ) Power and Dispel are as rumored with the 2D6 each turn. Highest D6 goes as Dispel Dice. Each wizard can channel and extra dice on a 6, and there is a ceiling on dice of 12 PD or DD at any one time. There is no limit on how many per turn used, just pooled.
6 ) There is both IF and a miscast chart, so RoH will still function.
7 ) Dispel can still IF, but not autofail anymore. It also does not suffer from the miscast chart with an IF.
8 ) Templates are auto-hit unless specified otherwise. Breath attacks are once per game, and may be used as shooting or CC.
9 ) The To-Wound chart will always wound on a 6+, even ST1 versus T10.
10 ) There may not be a +1 to hit when shooting at what was known as a Large Target. I'll look into this further as it may be under a special ruling for Large Targets instead of the To-Hit modifier section.
11 ) In CC, there is both "support" attacks and "horde". All units get support of 1 attack from the 2nd rank minus mounts, if 10+wide the 3rd rank fights with 1 attack as well.
12 ) ASF and great weapons cancel and neither rule is considered to be in effect.
13 ) ASF and same or higher initiative is a reroll to hit.
14 ) VPs are still in with some changes to banners, characters, and other random effects based upon 1 of 6 scenarios.
15 ) Armour modifiers are the same as before, so st4 is still -1.
16 ) Magic resistance is now a ward save. It combines with any others you have, or generates it's own.
17 ) Damage goes in order of Hit, Wound, Armour save, Ward or Regen Save, Multiplied Damage. I may have to revise this upon later readings.
18 ) Regen is lost for the phase if an unsaved flaming wound is inflicted. Example: Spell from lore of Fire works in Magic phase, Regen will work again during shooting phase.
19 ) Flanks and rear charges are based upon position of majority of FRONT rank of unit declaring the charge.
20 ) Hatred does not require pursuit.
21 ) Frenzy can be lost, but charges can be restrained with a LD check.
22 ) Stupidity grants Immune to Psychology as a constant effect.
23 ) Monster and Handlers is changed, I will need to reread for exact details. The only thing I'm sure of is that a unsaved wound on Hydra can randomize to a handler, just not what circumstances.
24 ) There is a lot of magic items listed under a common section with point costs for general access in armies.
As I stated above, this is based upon about 10 minutes worth of reading so please take with a large handful of salt until I can read more later.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
I haven't posted in quite some time here, but WOW:
That is nice
EbonyPhoenix wrote:20 ) Hatred does not require pursuit.
21 ) Frenzy can be lost, but charges can be restrained with a LD check.
22 ) Stupidity grants Immune to Psychology as a constant effect.
That is nice
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- Mr. anderson
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I'm liking this a lot, actually. I better go pre-order my rulebook...
Except the "measuring before doing anything" bit... does that apply to things where the range is not decided randomly as well (like casting spells, shooting, guess weapons etc.) ? I'm guessing yes, but I want to be sure.
The more news you can bring the better mate!
Except the "measuring before doing anything" bit... does that apply to things where the range is not decided randomly as well (like casting spells, shooting, guess weapons etc.) ? I'm guessing yes, but I want to be sure.
The more news you can bring the better mate!
When I think of something witty, I shall put it here.
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Regarding the measure first rule, the book did mention as its example movement, shooting, and something else iirc. So it seems that not knowing whether you can perform an action has gone out the window.
Also, just remembered I looked this up. Cavalry can now assault buildings, they just can't claim or occupy them.
Oh, one last thing. There didn't appear to be a "standard" deployment anymore. You roll a D6 and the deployment field alters. 4 of the six are won with VPs just like now, 1 is based upon Fortitude from your general and banners, and the last is a take and hold the building in the center scenario.
Also, just remembered I looked this up. Cavalry can now assault buildings, they just can't claim or occupy them.
Oh, one last thing. There didn't appear to be a "standard" deployment anymore. You roll a D6 and the deployment field alters. 4 of the six are won with VPs just like now, 1 is based upon Fortitude from your general and banners, and the last is a take and hold the building in the center scenario.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
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Oh, one last thing. There didn't appear to be a "standard" deployment anymore. You roll a D6 and the deployment field alters. 4 of the six are won with VPs just like now, 1 is based upon Fortitude from your general and banners, and the last is a take and hold the building in the center scenario.
I hope I'm not the only one, but I didn't quite understand this. How are the victory points related to deployment and a D6?
And also, apparently that book is supposed to be absolutely massive. How much of it are rules, and how much of it is hobby material, background etc.?
Oh, and did they acknowledge that Storm of Chaos happened?
ASF and same or higher initiative is a reroll to hit.
Does this mean that having I6 cancels the swordmaster's ASF out? That's how I understand it. Would be more than awesome, which is why I wanted to make sure
Are there any major changes to the shooting phase?
When I think of something witty, I shall put it here.
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Sorry, there's a reason I shouldn't type before having my morning caffeine.
In order:
There are 6 scenarios in the book randomly rolled for to expand the 7th edition Pitched Battle. 1 is the Pitched Battle as now. 3 others appeared to be varied deployment schemes, such as reserves or deploying across the 4' side instead of the 6' one. These 4 seemed to be based upon the VP we're used to: points per unit, general, BSB. There are reduced points claimed for unit standards(down to 25 instead of 100), points for a champ killing a character in challenge(50), and looks like no points for table quarters.
ASF is still strike first regardless of initiative, but if your Initiative stat is equal to or higher than your opponent you can reroll hits each round of combat as well.
If a model with Always Strikes Last (greatweapons) also has ASF the two rules cancel out and neither applies to the model. So yes, our BG now eat Swordmasters for breakfast without having to take a standard. Plus our assassins will now always get a reroll barring a few isolated examples.
As for size, the book is big. It would definately qualify as a blunt weapon for combat. As a plus, less than half the book is actual rules so there is a lot of fluff that I haven't looked at yet.
I didn't get to look in detail at shooting yet though, so currently no comment.
Lastly, flaming attacks seem to cause fear in mounts, monsters, beasts (hounds, harpies, etc), and does something extra to building assaults.
In order:
There are 6 scenarios in the book randomly rolled for to expand the 7th edition Pitched Battle. 1 is the Pitched Battle as now. 3 others appeared to be varied deployment schemes, such as reserves or deploying across the 4' side instead of the 6' one. These 4 seemed to be based upon the VP we're used to: points per unit, general, BSB. There are reduced points claimed for unit standards(down to 25 instead of 100), points for a champ killing a character in challenge(50), and looks like no points for table quarters.
ASF is still strike first regardless of initiative, but if your Initiative stat is equal to or higher than your opponent you can reroll hits each round of combat as well.
If a model with Always Strikes Last (greatweapons) also has ASF the two rules cancel out and neither applies to the model. So yes, our BG now eat Swordmasters for breakfast without having to take a standard. Plus our assassins will now always get a reroll barring a few isolated examples.
As for size, the book is big. It would definately qualify as a blunt weapon for combat. As a plus, less than half the book is actual rules so there is a lot of fluff that I haven't looked at yet.
I didn't get to look in detail at shooting yet though, so currently no comment.
Lastly, flaming attacks seem to cause fear in mounts, monsters, beasts (hounds, harpies, etc), and does something extra to building assaults.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
- Arquinsiel
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The simplest thing to point out here is that, model for model, Cavalry have always been better than Infantry. That's why they.... drummroll please.... cost more points in the..... Army Books. Monsters? Archers? Infantry? Spellcasters? All the same. Balance comes from the Army Books and their interaction with the core rules not from the core rules themselves.Red... wrote:Well, yes and no:
If the game is clearly favouring one type of unit over another, then you can probably get a sense of whether its balanced or not. For example, if the game descends into a question of who has the most archer blocks, then you can guess that its unbalanced towards bowmen, or if the game is won by the traditional twin hydra cheese extraordinare combo, then you can guage that the imbalance of certain big monsters hasn't been fixed.
Fun depends on what you look for in a game. I can safely say that 8th edition is not my cup of tea simply by looking at the GW-released video of the new gimmicks. Balanced is not going to happen, because of how GW writes games.Red... wrote:Of course, it will take time for us to find out if the rules are ultimately balanced and fun, but we can at least guage from early feedback whether they look initially as though they will be!
faerthurir wrote:Arq kicked me in the gyros.
- Ebonyphoenix
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ASF is potentially rerolls every round of combat. So yes, the little high elf spearmen, phoenix guard, and dragon princes got a boost. However, the swordmasters and white lions don't get the benefit as their Always Strikes Last greatweapons negate the ASF rule completely.
So yes, ASF got better, not worse. However, High Elves don't get that great a boost from the rewritten rule, depending on the multiple army FAQs that are rumored to arrive in July.
So yes, ASF got better, not worse. However, High Elves don't get that great a boost from the rewritten rule, depending on the multiple army FAQs that are rumored to arrive in July.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
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Due to the fact that I think I've covered a majority of the major topics, I *will* take specific requests for those who have them. Please try to limit it to no more than 2 specific questions, since I doubt I'll have the book to myself much. Also, please try to make sure that nobody else asked the question before you. I'll try to get an ongoing answer list generated once I can take specific notes as I read the book so you can see if I've found the answer already.
I can't guarantee that I'll answer every question, but I'll answer as many as I can with answers I think won't bring the wrath of GW on my head. (I like my local game store, and want it to keep getting advance copies)
In other words, don't ask me for point costs on the new magic items, nor for the exact casting cost of various spells. I will try to get a list of the new spells either tomorrow or on Monday/Tuesday next week though.
I can't guarantee that I'll answer every question, but I'll answer as many as I can with answers I think won't bring the wrath of GW on my head. (I like my local game store, and want it to keep getting advance copies)
In other words, don't ask me for point costs on the new magic items, nor for the exact casting cost of various spells. I will try to get a list of the new spells either tomorrow or on Monday/Tuesday next week though.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
EbonyPhoenix wrote:Due to the fact that I think I've covered a majority of the major topics, I *will* take specific requests for those who have them.
I would like to know some more about the stepping up/fighting in extra ranks bit. I want to know how it really works.
Lord Admiral, Creedence Vendral, Commander of the Black Arc Murderous Pride.
ASF is still strike first regardless of initiative, but if your Initiative stat is equal to or higher than your opponent you can reroll hits each round of combat as well.
Wait. What? Are you serious? So that unit of phoenix guard will both get to take a charge, always strike first AND get re-rolls vs lower initiative foes?
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Thanks for the contribution phierlihy.
I'll look into the stupidity rule again. My short read made it appear that it was any unit with the stupidity rule is considered ITP as their reaction times are slow/or they just don't care what is going on around them. I could easily have misread that, so I'll see if I can update my information tonight.
@Creedence: I'll definately look into the step-up/horde/support attack rules. This change is probably going to largely influence our tactics, so the sooner we can figure this out the better.
I'll look into the stupidity rule again. My short read made it appear that it was any unit with the stupidity rule is considered ITP as their reaction times are slow/or they just don't care what is going on around them. I could easily have misread that, so I'll see if I can update my information tonight.
@Creedence: I'll definately look into the step-up/horde/support attack rules. This change is probably going to largely influence our tactics, so the sooner we can figure this out the better.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
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Red... wrote:ASF is still strike first regardless of initiative, but if your Initiative stat is equal to or higher than your opponent you can reroll hits each round of combat as well.
Wait. What? Are you serious? So that unit of phoenix guard will both get to take a charge, always strike first AND get re-rolls vs lower initiative foes?
Sadly, yes. That appears to be the way ASF is worded in this edition. So much for ASF not being just broken. The only thing is I think that the reroll does not occur if facing another unit with ASF. However, don't quote me on that until I get another chance at the rulebook.
*edited for additional content*
Currently, the list of info I'll look for tonight if I can get access to the book again is...
1. The shooting phase in general
2. Exact wording on Stupidity
3. Exact specifics of ASF with or without greatweapons
4. Combat with step-up/support/horde attacks
5. SCR, both generating and cancelling
6. The various spells
7. IF, Miscast, the RoH, and how they all fit together
8. The new Monster and Handler rules
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
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EbonyPhoenix wrote:Red... wrote:ASF is still strike first regardless of initiative, but if your Initiative stat is equal to or higher than your opponent you can reroll hits each round of combat as well.
Wait. What? Are you serious? So that unit of phoenix guard will both get to take a charge, always strike first AND get re-rolls vs lower initiative foes?
Sadly, yes. That appears to be the way ASF is worded in this edition. So much for ASF not being just broken. The only thing is I think that the reroll does not occur if facing another unit with ASF. However, don't quote me on that until I get another chance at the rulebook.
Technically the high elves don't have ASF, they have speed of Asuryan. So there is a chance (though only that) that GW knew they were going to do this (or might) when they wrote the HE Army book and they will errated down. Of course that may just be wishful thinking.
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