Tomb Kings Release

[Greenwhy]

I caught a glimpse of the new TK army book yesterday.

They have a pretty nifty magic lore. The lore attribute is that any augment spell cast also adds D3+1 wounds/models to the unit. From memory it was something like:

0 - Augment - free movement spell
1 - Augment
2 - Augment - unit gains KB, if they already have KB or HKB then it works on a 5 or 6.
3 - Augment - righteous smiting....
4 - Hex
5 - Hex
6 - Magic Vortex (13+)

The Sphinxes aren't THAT scary. Sure the necrosphynx is designed to kill other monsters.

[Kaleth stinson]

http://imgur.com/a/QhB6R The spells.

Did they only have a 5+ as?

[Greenwhy]

If memory serves I think it might have only been 5+ yes. I dunno thought, doesn't sound right does it...

The spells all have pretty low casting values.

[Aszvet]

Sphinex only has a 5+ AS, the scariest part is that the War Sphinex is a special choice, not Rare. The Necro Sphinex is the Rare choice. Both though suffer from the unstable rule, so combat res will kill them.

[Dyvim tvar]

Good luck with that. Both are well equipped to deal damage to overcome static resolution.

[Burizan]

In my experience (quite significant) fighting with or against new TK: casket of souls is amazing. Their magic lore is quite situational, and you really need a lv.4 to cover all the bases. Arkhan the black is scary but awesome. Sphinxes have yet to do anything from what I've seen, they can be taken down by: I based spells, massed s3 attacks/shooting, poison. All things dark elves pack plenty of.

[Enkiel]

Good luck with that. Both are well equipped to deal damage to overcome static resolution.

good news is that we stay steadfast as long as we got 5 models.... so it might just be one hell of a long combat.

[Dyvim tvar]

True!

I'm thinking I may need to paint up some Witch Elves just to help deal with the proliferation of big nasty monsters. Poisoned attacks are one way to deal with T8.

Also, Shadow Magic looks to be very good against TK. Signature Spell can make Thundercrush hit on 5+ instead of 4+, Pit of Shades and/or Pendulum work well against big, low I stuff, and Mindrazor of course.

[Tethlis]

The effective build I've seen for Warsphynxes is running two of them in tandem with breath weapons. In case one misses with his template attack, the other one might still pick up the slack. If they both miss, they can pop their breath weapons and use Thunderstomp to even out the difference and avoid crumbling due to static combat resolution. Either way, they're a great anti-horde choice, as long as they can be adequately supported with a bit of healing and kept away from units that deal lots of attacks across a small frontage.

[Enkiel]

The effective build I've seen for Warsphynxes is running two of them in tandem with breath weapons. In case one misses with his template attack, the other one might still pick up the slack. If they both miss, they can pop their breath weapons and use Thunderstomp to even out the difference and avoid crumbling due to static combat resolution. Either way, they're a great anti-horde choice, as long as they can be adequately supported with a bit of healing and kept away from units that deal lots of attacks across a small frontage.

thinking about that...

arent they supposed to decide if they breath or not BEFORE making any attack? since its done at the same I as the monster, no?

[Saintofm]

Yep, must decide before hand to use it or not, then use it.

Still, the unit is a perfect unit killer if it wasn't for their crap ininitiative

[Dyvim tvar]

Also, breath weapons are almost always better used BEFORE combat. They will do a lot more damage to big infantry units by running up and flaming them, and then receiving a charge. That's how I use my hydras and I expect the Sphinxes to be used in a similar fashion.

[Tethlis]

Combat is always the most decisive phase of the game. While using the breath weapon outside of combat will almost always cause more casualties, using the breath weapon in combat can have a more decisive effect if you break your opponent and eradicate the entire unit. It's rare that the breath template will kill every model you're facing, but if you break your opponent easily and run him down, then the opposing unit is completely gone and you've also earned VP.

As for the breath weapon/initiative question, use of the breath weapon is a factor of how risky the combat is and whether or not Thunderstomp and crew attacks can reasonably overcome the possibility of missing with both template attacks.

[Dyvim tvar]

I agree that combat is the decisive phase -- which is why you use your breath weapon outside of combat. Removing a bunch of models and therefore multiple ranks makes the subsequent combat more easily winnable.

[Dangerous Beans]

Dyvim and Tethlis, I think you guys are rather generalising the role of the Hydra a little too much: very often the situation will call for different uses of the breath weapon: yes, the chance to win a combat and annihilate a large unit in a single failed Ld test is a great way to net some VPs, however the chance of them failing (thanks to Steadfast/BSB nearby etc) is probably relatively low, thus using the breath weapon to shoot will reduce the duration of a prolonged combat (due to covering a mass of bodies that would otherwise take 2 or 3 turns to grind out in combat).

I think both uses of breath weapons have merit but situations call for differing uses: another point of NOT using it in combat is the reduced strength (thanks to enemies often going before the hydra) breath weapon if it suffers wounds.

Sorry I seem to be have gone quite off topic after all that - we're not talking about Hydra breath weapons after all here! How do the tomb kings 'feel' as an army: is there a sensation that they are on par with the generally well perceived consensus of the Orc and Goblin book: ie. do Tomb Kings seem to be overpowered or are they on the same standard as O&Gs?

I have to admit I've not fought them yet, but I look forward to doing so: they have been an army I've had a small eye on for a bit. Shame the models are so dear however!

[Dyvim tvar]

You are right -- we are way off topic ...

[Ichiyo1821]

Yes we are off topic but they are correct. You get more kills by using the breathe weapon outside combat against rank and file as compared to the random 2d6 and you can't use parry save against the breathe weapon if you use it during the shooting phase. However against single models the 2d6 version is better. Having low Initiative, the Hydra's breathe weapon could get weaker if it suffers any wounds.

Now back to topic...Their lore is amazing. They got the best spells from death, shadow and put in Lifebloom and Van Hel's in the mix plus hexes that slow you down.. Multiple shots, KB, 5+ ward save name it they have it. I actually got interested seeing what TK are capable of. As for the Sphinx, they seem to be strong and good for their points but I still believe that ALL monsters are mostly canon fodder or fire magnets of all sorts and thus I treat them as I would Chariots. Since you guys have compared it to the Hydra, I might as well give my two cents about it. The Hydra is cheap and under-priced because of the edition change, now the Hydra imo is more defensive than the Sphinx and vice versa. Sure it's Toughness 8 but 6's still wound it and with 5+ as (does it have a ward save? If it does at say 5+ disregard this paragraph) it is more likely to die to mass shooting, attacks and poison. You can argue that flaming attacks also negate the Hydra's toughness but really how many units have that? Archers with flaming banner are still s3 and I've yet to see people field horde archers. If they do target the Hydra, it's what? 175 points. The Sphinx imo was meant to be played offensively as you would with Manticores. It's fly ability compensates for it's lack of armor and with it's abilities and low initiative, screams monster killer. Now based on what I've read, the TK book would operate pretty much like DE actually bar a few distinct differences (Initiative being the most apparent)

You have low toughness/low armor save troops that can unleash a massive hail of doom that hit on 5's no matter what plus if you get the TK spell off, you get 2x shots pretty much like that of our RXB. You have lots of tactical flexibility with the Stalkers, Tomb Scorpions and Knights. You have cheap Skeletons for holding lines. You have Elite Tomb Guard and easy access to Killing Blow on your toops for knights and heavily armoured units. You have the Casket and Mages for versatility and last but not the least, you have chariots and a spell that makes your units move. They share the similar pitfalls as DE and some of our strengths plus their own which I think in the hands of a very good general, otherwise they are just another frail flavor of the month army. Makes me want to read their entire AB ASAP.

[Burizan]

A bit of an exaggeration on their lore, it's very situational if you don't have a good selection (ie lv.4). Their movement doesn't compare to van hel's as you can't charge, and it effectively allows you a march move you can't get otherwise. Big woop. They can't heal their characters, unlike VC and EVERY army with lore of life. The Kb spell is cool, and the variant of soul blight they have can be as game changing as okkams. Their movement limiting spell is useful - but not significant when you can compare it to miasma or flame cage.

Out of context 5+ ward save is incredible, but when you see it on troops that quite often have 6+ regen saves anyway it makes less of a difference.

Yes used properly on a high level mage their magic can significantly effect every phase of the game, but its by no means any better than shadow or death.

Incidentally my first GT match was against a bret player with 2 x 40 peasant bowmen with flaming attacks. Fortunately t5 and 4+ as were enough to ignore it.

Both of my armies always have at least one out of death and shadow, and until that changes I am not going to be afraid of a sphinx.

[Ichiyo1821]

What I meant was they got the best of both worlds as TK has their own version of Death and Shadow spells on top of the Lore attribute that brings back dead models. A level 4 caster is really what TK should be having as compared to a combat lord anyway and as I've said being TK, I'm expecting them to have items/banners/options akin to HE ones that give you more powerdice or similar to Lizardmen. VC suffers not having shooting attacks and being too General reliant to pull tricks as compared to even the old TK book where you have a lot more options and the same can be said about the new book. It can be compared to Van Hel's in the light that VC need to charge while TK can hang back with shooting. Since you hit on unmodified BS, (hitting on 5's regardless) you can pretty much swift reform, move, cast spell move, shoot-->next turn swift reform again, move, cast spell shoot and shift your army towards more defensible positions. You can't march with Chariots so the extra move is also a big plus. Yes you don't get to use it to charge but really that extra move means a lot. 5+ ward on Tomb Guard is good as well as the giving your Sphinx that extra survivability against cannons and whatnots for it to do it's job.

[Danceman]

The lore attribute is completely inconsequensial. The augments and hexes does not even come close to mitigate the loss of heals and movement. The current movement spell is not good, not at all. All it does is allow TK to do what every single army out there take for granted, namely, march.
In short, the lore is decent, at best and at its worst it is pointless.

Overall, the entire book has lost every inch of its appeal. I was blown away with the models, yepp I really like em, but damn the rules are so... dull.

Cruddence managed to make something interesting extraordinairily lifeless(hurr hurr) and boring. Least this massive disappointed of a book will help me focus more on Dark Eldar and Beastmen.

[Mr_piechee]

I wouldn't say that they have lost appeal at all. Yes, magic might be a bit tougher, but its a pretty strong law, and has its normal undead character to it. Yes other armies might be able to march normally, but look at the massive point reductions since the last book. skeletons (if i remember correctly) are roughly a third of the cost! And i'm pretty sure the cavalry is the cheapest out there.

Also, i'm loving the art work and the lay out of the new book! hard back is defiantly the way to go, especially with full colour all the way through!

edit: Unless i'm blind there is only 8 magic items... thats horrific!
The army does lack mid cost units though - cheap infantry, and then expensive constructs....

[Danceman]

It's about half the cost, and it is about time. Having a useless healing spell and being unstable with troops that are worse fighters than skaven slaves better be cheap as dirt. Same with cavalry, it is the cheapest for a reason... Not very good punch(not one you associate with cavalry). It is a very small consolation price.

The hardback book and beautiful artwork isn't enough for me. I want my army to be fun to play, not just look good in a display cabinet. There is good stuff in the book, yes but the bad just seem to shine through all the more stronger. Who knows I might be able to view it with more sober eyes but for now I am struggling to find anything good without finding two other reasons for the bad.