Declaring magic items in friendly games

[Red...]

As we approached one of the climactic combats during our battle between Ogres and Dark Elves today, my opponent decided to cast regenerate on his big unit of bulls led by Tyrant and other characters. Knowing my unit of Executioners - which were parked about 6" in front of his unit - were armed with the Banner of Eternal Flame, I let the spell through. The following conversation ensued:

Opponent (jovially): "I'll be really annoyed now if they have flaming attacks..."
Me (slightly pained expression): "Well, I'm not going to say, but put it this way - I just let the spell through without even thinking about it or raising an eyebrow."
Opponent (look of resignation): "Oh. Great"

After the game finished, he said that he wished he had asked whether I had the Flaming Banner prior to casting the spell. I replied that it wouldn't have helped, because I wouldn't have told him: it was a closed list game. He was surprised, and queried whether this was chivalrous in a friendly game. I rebutted by asking whether he would have declared he had Hellheart on his mage if I had asked prior to him using it, to which he declared he would have. We agreed that in future games it would be a good idea to decide in advance on what the official line was for this kind of thing.

The tone has been lost a bit in my writing, so I should emphasize that all of this was done in a very amicable and friendly way. It was more of a discussion than a debate.

But it leaves me curious - what do other people think should be the norm for friendly games? I always declare what weapons and armour etc that units have, but don't reveal magic items until they are used. Is that normal or do folk usually tell their opponents what magic items their models have during friendly games?

[Kabbala]

With my regular gaming group, we play with "open lists." If asked, any of us will let the other look over his list. But usually it's simply a run down of what banner is which, which lore does the sorc have, and the occasional "what's that do again?" query.

In your scenario, if it was an agreed upon "closed list," then that your opponent should have no reason to be upset.

[Dalamar]

Closed lists give a bit of uncertainty of what your opponent is hiding and bring up the level of challenge a little as you need to expect the unexpected.

It's really personal preference of the group, or even two people playing at the moment if the game is with open or closed lists.

Personally I prefer closed ones, especially when an army can have assassins or other hidden assets that really don't work when they're not hidden.

[Lord tsunami]

we always play closed lists in my gaming group, and that works well since it is friendly games, and every one trusts each other. no one has to worry about any one trying to cheat.

However, we all try and play all comers lists, so we usually play the same lists for several battles, and we usually help each other when making the lists, so there is a big chance that you will know what items are where anyway. that being said, i totally agree with the approach that your opponent shouldnt know what items are where, since that would make items such as rock eye pointless. i would have laughed my head off if that regen-thing happened to me

[Holt]

I have always played closed lists, as others have said it adds to the challenge. I almost feel like it is a bit rude to ask to see some ones list when they have worked so hard to make it a good list and they could lose their edge by showing it. In friendly games I do not mind so much but I would still prefer hidden lists.

At the most recent tournament I played at people would hand me their lists, I felt as if they then expected to see my list. At some times it would feel like the rest of the game would be awkward if I (or any other player in my position) did not go along with this. While they may have been aiming for sportsmanship points I think this is the wrong way to go about getting them.

So its a point for hidden lists from me.

[Calisson]

My norm is closed list, becomes open at the end of the game.

[Handsome jack]

Calisson is spot on. Closed list until after the game then open. A wise man once said"trust, but verify".

[Red...]

Thanks for the responses. Yes, I think in this instance our mistake was not clarifying in advance. It's difficult, there was always an unspoken tradition in 7th ed in my gaming group of declaring how many dispel scrolls you had. I don't really know why - we didn't share knowledge about the rest of our magic items, but for some reason we did with scrolls.

Anyway, yes, Lord Tsunami you hit the nail exactly on the head. The Flaming Banner is totally useless on the Execs unless my opponent has a regen unit, so it does rely to a large extent on my opponent not knowing this - otherwise he can obviously match up his units against mine to ensure that the regen units don't go near the ones which have flaming attacks. I also had limited sympathy because this is now my standard list and I've played several games against this particular opponent several times before, each time in which the Execs had the flaming banner. It was simply that this was the first time this had been useful for them. His protestation was based on the fact that, had he known, he would have cast +1T on them instead, but I have little sympathy for this either - he cast the spell using 3 of his 6 remaining dice, while I still had 6 dispel dice and a dispel scroll left...

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and it was a good fun game. I think my opponent may have been feeling a little frustrated by other things (such as my incredibly lucky dice rolls all game, combined with his incredibly unlucky ones)...

[Demetrius]

I always play open lists, in both friendly games and tournament games. I dont think Australia really does closed list tournaments.

Before the game I always exchange lists with my opponent, making sure we both know the items (and what they do) on all our characters/ units.

I think it is only fair to do this, especially against people you dont play against reguarly (and ESPECIALLY if you havnt got your list written down on paper). In fact, I reguarly will ask for the stats of each unit before I engage with them, and will happily share the stats of my own models if my opponent asks. Theres too many units and armies in the game to be familiar with everything IMO.

[Calisson]

I reguarly will ask for the stats of each unit before I engage with them, and will happily share the stats of my own models if my opponent asks. Theres too many units and armies in the game to be familiar with everything IMO.

That's not list sharing, that's book sharing.

"- What's the price of X compared to Y?
- X costs 8pts apiece plus 30pts for FC. They have an option which could allow this or that. The pennant could be a magic one up to 50pts, and the army book includes Z for 35pts.
Y costs 20pts apiece but beware, they are stubborn."

Open book, closed list, very fair play, surprise still there.

[Rork]

About the only thing I would ever tell my opponent is what units have what Mark of Chaos (or similar) they have.

You wouldn't know what magic sword the army general has until he starts hitting you with it .

And the fact that the game has often included items that reveal hidden troops or items implies that they are supposed to remain so until revealed at the right moment. It doesn't stop you playing with open lists, but closed lists add an element of surprise.

[Sulla]

Any equipment that is not modelled on the guy, I'll make sure my opponent knows; say for example a guy has a great weapon but the model has hw&shield. Or if the unit has a mark that is not represented visibly. But gifts, items or hidden models... they have to find out the hard way.

Closed lists all the way for me.

[Geist]

Maybe I am just an old bitter elf. But ever since I began playing its been open lists every tourny every pick up every casual play. Not once every have I played closed or guess whats in a list. In fact me and a good friend of mine found the 7th ed items of reveal all items within "x" inches to be humorous, A because we all play open, B the item is usually high cost for that power and does lil else. Closed list are a silly notion. Kinda like no premeasuring in 40k.

[Mrdark12]

for my friendly games I have a don't ask don't tell policy, if no one asks (you'd be surprised how often people fail to ask about something after its too late), but there are some players where we have a unspoken rule that lists are closed until the end of the match, but normally if I am asked I will tell within reason.

[Rabidnid]

Maybe I am just an old bitter elf. But ever since I began playing its been open lists every tourny every pick up every casual play. Not once every have I played closed or guess whats in a list. In fact me and a good friend of mine found the 7th ed items of reveal all items within "x" inches to be humorous, A because we all play open, B the item is usually high cost for that power and does lil else. Closed list are a silly notion. Kinda like no premeasuring in 40k.

Yep, the skill is in countering the item not sneaking it up on someone. I've always played open lists.

[Red...]

I'd disagree Rabidnid, some of the skill comes from deft positioning of the items in question. This has all kinds of potential additional strategic and tactical elements, including:

- Identifying which items your opponent will have brought
- Identifying which unit or character will likely have a particular magic item.

These both rely on logical calculations based on factors such as:
- opponent's general play style.
- Memory of previous encounters.
- Estimation of the probability of an item being included due to a synergy with a particular unit.
- General knowledge of what is powerful and what is not within your opponent's army list.

For example, it takes skill to identify whether an opponent is likely to a) have brought the flaming banner and b) which unit will have it. It requires me to know whether my opponent prefers to risk wasting the points on a magic item if I have no regenerating models in exchange for the high reward if I do have such models in my army. It also requires me to know the effectiveness of the banner and thus its likelihood of being a popular choice. It also requires me to know which unit the banner synergises well with (limited point having it on a unit of fast cavalry, but very handy on a big unit of archers). I can also remember whether they usually field the banner and which unit they have it on. The last point is irrelevant as it is a common magic item, but if it was specialised to a particular army I would be rewarded by knowing my enemy and his/her potential options for battle.

I also think that there is little skill involved in avoiding a lot of magic items if you know what they are. If a unit is labelled at the start of the game as possessing the flaming banner, then it is a bit of a no brainer for their opponent to move any and all regenerating models away from it. Not exactly the high peak of strategy here. It is far more of a strategic game, however, if you think that one of three or four units may have the banner - making educated guesses as to which may indeed yield such an item is much more strategic than simply knowing in advance.

In real terms, the idea that the exact magic item that a character or unit is carrying could be identified from the other side of the battlefield is really rather silly. I simply can't imagine a unit of goblins knowing that a minor hero is carrying the biting blade from across the otherside of the battlefield is realistic. Yes, I know Warhammer isn't realistic, but it's another reason not to play with open lists!

[Rabidnid]

I simply can't imagine a unit of goblins knowing that a minor hero is carrying the biting blade from across the otherside of the battlefield is realistic. Yes, I know Warhammer isn't realistic, but it's another reason not to play with open lists!

Why not. Its obviously magical, and there is no reason why a biting blade would not look different to a sword of striking ow whatever. How far away are they? 50 metres? Realism of any kind has no place in warhammer of either kind.


It just adds another level of potential error or cheating to the game.

[Loki]

We always play closed lists in my group of friends. However, sometimes my friends think that means they don't have to explain rules or let me see their army book. It does cause arguments sometimes.

[Omnichron]

I play with either closed or open list. Usually, me and my friends play normal games, where the lists are closed and it's a bit of "Surpriiiise". This means it's also harder to pick out what my pegasus masters got on them, and so they might end up shooting on one that has ward save with their cannons instead of the one with only armor.

I must admit that I kinda liked the tournaments and preperations for them which used ETC rules (open lists), as I then could build my tactic on facts, not by guessing.

Anyways, I think it should be either open or closed, not something like "if you ask".

[Loran]

We decide before hand whether we'll use open or closed lists. Not that it really matters, as most people have pretty standardized lists/units, so after a few games it's quite easy to remember which units have magic items.

However, unless stated before the game, I expect to be playing with closed lists. I will tell what wargear (armour type, weapon type) the units have, which are clearly visible on the models, just to make sure. But unless playing with open lists, I won't tell what magic items a given unit/model has until it's time to use the item.

WYSIWYG is what I go for, but magic items aren't on that necessarily. If the magic item is a gigantic sword for example, then the model will have a big sword (I usually try to model the stuff so they look like the fluff behind said magic item). Still won't mean that I'll tell the opponent, or that the same model will always have a magic weapon

- Loran