Anaerion, Dark elf or High elf?

[Playa23]

Hi, I've just read the Malekith novel and I've read all the Army book entries of both the Dark and High elves and I began to wonder... Just for interest sake what do you guys think would have happened if Anaerion (Sorry if I've misspelt the name) survived the wars with Chaos until the Sundering? Would he have joined with the Druchii forces or the Asur during the Sundering? At the beginning of the novel he is described almost as a sort of sinister character and embodied a lot qualities that are associated with the Druchii. I'm new to the site and the Druchii so I have to ask for apologies if this topic has been brought up before but I couldn't find any recent forum headlines regarding this topic. I thought it would make an interesting topic to discuss Thanks.

[Maldor]

The Sundering was only possible with the death of Anaerion. He was the only elf with the power and will to rule over all elves.

[Darigaaz]

The sundering wouldn't have happened if Malekith wasn't passed over as the next Phoenix King. But for the sake of the thread, I'd say he would be on the side of the Druchii, purely for sticking with his family and asserting Nagarythe's superiority over the other realms.

[Drainial]

As the others have said the Sundering only occurred due to Aeanarion's sudden death, the civil war that lead to the Sundering was a result of Malekith being rejected as Phoenix king when they decided not to have it as an hereditary office.

But for the sake of argument I tend to think he would have been on the Asur's side, though it would have broken his heart. He was prince of Nagrythe, but when he walked through the fire and drew Widowmaker he came to embody a larger cause, a cause which Malekith and Moraithy were attempting to destroy (though of course they did not think of it this way). He stopped really being an elf and became the Defender of Ulthuan with the blessing of the two gods.

[Playa23]

Yeah you guys are right of course, I guess what I really was trying to get at was what faction would Anaerion join if a similar occurrence like the Sundering would to happen while he was alive. Would he join his Druchii kin or continue defending Ulthuan with the Asur? Thanks for the responses so far, they are much appreciated

[Maldor]

Had he been alive he would more than likely have been forced to kill his family and put an end to the rebellion. The majority of the Nagarythe only followed Malekith in the beginning because he was viewed as their proper ruler. Anaerion's presence would trump Malekith, so he would only have to slay his son and wife and their immediate followers, thereby keeping the elves united.

[Kula]

Had he been alive he would more than likely have been forced to kill his family and put an end to the rebellion. The majority of the Nagarythe only followed Malekith in the beginning because he was viewed as their proper ruler. Anaerion's presence would trump Malekith, so he would only have to slay his son and wife and their immediate followers, thereby keeping the elves united.

Which would probably not lead to a war between the elves and the dwarfs, that again would reduce the impact on both races, making them more capable to withstand enemy forces.

[Drainial]

Maybe, maybe not. The war would probably have happened later and for different reasons, but two powerful civilisations, both warlike and both expanding into the same territory were bound to clash eventually.

[Darigaaz]

As "pure" as Aenarion is perceived to be, he is still regarded as the most warlike of any elf that ever lived.
And even historically, as with all great political men, their wives were very influentional with their decisions, probably even more so than the royal courts, and Morathi being the manipulative shrew that she is, I dare say that he would be on the side of his family.

Morathi would put a spin on the situation in her (and her son's) favour.

[Drainial]

He was so warlike because he was the living avatar of Khaine, and had such purity of purpose in the way he used his power and channelled his rage because he was also the living avatar of Asurian. On the other hand Morathi's powers of subversion are not to be underestimated, so you may well have a point, but the sundering its self went directly against what Aenarion had been fighting for, namely to preserve the world against the demonic legions. At that point I think he would have turned on her and Malekith to if he sided with his mommy, family ties or no.

[Playa23]

I think that I have to agree with Drainal for the most part. I got the feeling that Nagarythe was under some sort of scrutiny from the the rest of Ulthuan because of their warlike traditions (That stands for correction). Perhaps Nagarythe as the great power that it was, would have prompted some sort of war with the rest of Ulthuan's jealous princes. Hey there's possibly no right answer but maybe if we come up with a good enough argument for why Anaerion is more of a Dark Elf than a High Elf it could be a proverbial kick in the shin (or stab in the back) for our Asur "kin". . Thanks for the comments so far guys.

[Darigaaz]

Aenarion, like all other Druchii of the time, was headstrong and I would say probably a little arrogant (like the rest of Elvish nobility), so the more the other realms criticise him, the more he is going to push back.

Plus, if Malekith still had his father, he may not have been so manipulated by his mother. So suffice to say he would have followed Aenarion to the end and their fates would be entwined.

[Maldor]

I think it's missing the mark to think that the Dark/High Elf distinction really existed at that point. Yes, the Nagarythe were somewhat more warlike than the rest of Ulthuan, but all elves were more similar at that point in many ways than they are in the current warhammer timeline. Remember that it was not a clean division to begin with, there were those in greater Ulthuan who recognized Malekith as the rightful heir to the Phoenix throne while there were some in Nagarythe (Shadow Warriors) who were loyal to Bel Shanaar.

The current difference between the two races have more to do with them growing apart over the centuries, the Druchii becoming ever more fierce as their hate festers and they adapt to their harsh environment and the Asur withdrawing from the world as their empire dwindles.

[Drainial]

I disagree that the princedoms were more alike or more united then, remember that it was relatively recently that they had all been individual nations in their own right and the distinct cultures of each were probably far more prominent not less. Anaerion rose above such petty boundaries as states and bound peoples of all nations to himself, and Malekith caught enough reflected glory (and won enough glory himself) to fan the dying embers of that flame.
Now don't get me wrong, Nagrythe was more part of Ulthuan than Naggaroth would become but Tyronic and Caledor were less a part of Ulthuan than they would later become, along with Charce and Elyrion and the rest.

[Eldacar]

I think it's missing the mark to think that the Dark/High Elf distinction really existed at that point.

It didn't, or at least not really. Elements of it were, but while it did go somewhat towards the extreme, it would probably be erroneous to consider the differences as being a vast amount more more than warlike to non-warlike. It didn't become a complete cultural and psychological alteration for some time.

The Dark Elves are at least in part a product of the effects of the Widowmaker, and how Aenarion choosing to wield it led to darkness entering the hearts of both he and his followers. Originally, the elves were a peaceful people living under the domain of the Everqueen (and the Old Ones as well, though they have all but faded from history as time passed). War (and the corruption of Chaos) is effectively what created the Dark Elves originally. The actual split didn't entirely take place until the Sundering, when the elven people were permanently divided into two.

Before that, histories are more likely to refer to the civil war and Sundering as in fact being "brother against brother" (it is described as such by somebody who actually lived through it). That's when the split truly hit home, I would wager - the point at which the Sundering occurred and the Dark Elves were exiled from Ulthuan, leaving the victors to continue the system that had been established. Of course, it was something of a pyrrhic victory, given the loss that had been suffered (remember, the civil war can and did turn families against one another and devastate entire parts of Ulthuan). That the Asur recovered quickly to the stage where Malekith knew he couldn't beat them in a straight-up war shouldn't diminish the scope of the devastation that was visited on Ulthuan.

[Playa23]

I went through the High Elf army book again and found the passage that first ignited my interest on this topic. We all know the tragic story of Aenarion (Sorry that I misspelt it until now) and how he changed after the murder of the Everqueen and the drawing of the sword of Khaine. First what I found to be interesting was the mysterious union between him and Morathi does anyone have any more info on their union and what prompted Aenarion to marry her? (Hope that question is not too blasphemous, sorry don't stab me) Second was the passage that I found. It says that "The court of Anaerion earned itself a dark and fearful reputation such was the nature of its ruler..." and further on it says that "Tales of cruelty at Aenarion's court began to spread across Ulthuan". If he had survived the war how long would the other princes keep to themselves until Aenarion's dark ways went too far? Another important question is how much influence did Morathi have over Aenarion? Could it be that her influences would have led to a much darker post war Ulthuan and would that have been accepted? Thanks again for the comments so far.

Another thing that I found to be potentially puzzling (I'm sure someone will correct me on this point) is Techlis and Tyrion. It says in the High Elf army book that they are descendants of Aenarion (or that they can trace their ancestry back to Aenarion) which explains Techlis' physical weakness and Tyrion's vitality and it is because of the drawing of the sword that Techlis is so physically weak (I may be wrong I don't have the book in front of me). I'm guessing (but its quite obvious, I know) that they are not the offspring of Malekith so through the process of elimination it would seem that they may be the descendants of Aenarion's marriage with the Everqueen, but hold on a sec, Anaerion drew the sword of Khaine after the Everqueen gave birth to his children so how is it that Techlis is tainted by the being the descendant of Anaerion? Is it an inconsistency on GWs part or am I being a bit pedantic?

Thanks for any comments I know this could be bit irritating to read

[Eolelfslayer]

Well, i guess he can be considered an high elf, however an incredibly grim and bitter one. But i doubt King Malekith would have had any need to rebel to his father's rule, though i dont know about Morathi. Malekith just (rightfully) wanted to be king of the elves, a thing he would most likely achieve when his father passed by as a king, rather than as a tragic, controversial figure that was more feared than respected by fellow elves.

[Playa23]

Forget about Malekith for a second though. I think the real crux of the issue lies with Aenarion and his court. I think I mentioned it above but the way Aenarion's court was run lead to some controversy in Ulthuan. The real problem is more around how long Aenarion would've been allowed to act in such ways before some sort of repercussion and there is also Morathi to consider. This is a guess but the way I see it their marriage was also controversial to say the least and what would Aenarion have done with her at his side hmmm. Just saying that Aenarion is not the best role-model for what a high elf should be. Really those HE should just give up and give in to the Dark Side. Thanks

[Red...]

Just saying that Aenarion is not the best role-model for what a high elf should be.

I doubt anyone would find that a particularly controversial or revelationary point...

I think overall that Aenarion would have remained a high elf, but his very existence would have helped to shape the race towards darker paths. Unlike with Malekith, who was not and never has been, the king, Aenarion was their leader and saviour, so it would have been far harder for the high elves to reject his ways and open war against his court in nagarythe, no matter how barbaric it was.

However, that said, the story of the splintering between the mage Caledor (and his mages and dragon princes) and Aenarion, which ultimately leads to the mages gathering on the isle of the dead (against Aenarion's wishes) to attempt the sundering, could hint at the possibility of civil war if both elves had survived (rather than one dieing and the other getting stuck in the vortex he created for eternity)...

[Giladis]

There is more to the story than what can currently be found in the Naggarothi and Asur army books.

Before the coming of Chaos the Everqueen ruled the Elves but it is questionable how far that rule streached and what was its nature and it is also doubtfull which elven kingdoms have been founded at that time (Caledor and Nagarythe certainly weren't). As far as it can be understood from the background Elves originated in Avelorn and spread to other parts of Ulthuan from there. At an unknown point in time a group of Elves led by Caledor traveled to what would later be the kingdom of Caledor, tamed the Dragons and founded the kingdom.

"Than Caledor and his sons, riding Dragons and with all the Dragons of Caledor at their back, travelled the length of Ulthuan and all Elves acknowledged their rule. Thus began a golden age of order that ended with the coming of Chaos and the rise of Aenarion, the first Phoenix King." (5th ed. HE AB pg. 57)

So the duality of rule as currently see on Ulthuan allready existed before the first Phoenx King.

Aenarion himself before becoming the Phoenix King or the prince of Nagarythe was just an Avelornian adventurer.

Though Caledor initialy backed Aenarion as the leader of Elves a schism happened during the Chaos war and Aenarion called Caledor a traitor and should both have survived the creation of the vortex there is little doubt the two would come to blows sooner or later and the civil war would have ended with the victory of Aenarion but at a terrible price. The Elves of Ulthuan would have become warlike like the Druchii but probably more balanced and disciplined.


PLAYA23 - Tyrion and Teclis are descendants of Aenarion through the line of Morelion, Aenarions son with Astarielle. The children were only thought killed in the assault that claimed their mother. In reality they were sheltered by a Treeman and brought back to the Elves once the Vortex was created and Aenarion dead.[/quote]


edit: the people of Nagarythe were the people of the Widowmaker, Aenarion founded the kingdom in a bleak land that matched his soul to protect the Elvenkind and to his side came the most savage elf warriors of Ulthuan. His court was

"a will place, full of desperate gaiety and feverish mirth. Many cruel sports were practicised, such as hunting captured prisoners..."

and the quote to show that Aenarion had intended to clash with Caledor

"aenarion decried the departure of the Dragon riders as a betrayel and swore he would be avenged on their prince. Before he could take action new Chaos forces arrived in the Elf heartland."


Cheers

the Admiral

[Red...]

Though Caledor initialy backed Aenarion as the leader of Elves a schism happened during the Chaos war and Aenarion called Caledor a traitor

It's true that the two fell out, but I think it unlikely a civil war would have followed if both had survived. I quote a few lines from the high elf army book, 4th ed:

"Caledor percieved Aenarion for what he truly was, a mortal god, and bent knee immediately" (p16).

"Up to then, he had respected his old friend's command abjuring him from creating the vortex. But now there was nothing left to lose". (p17).

Yes, Aenarion would have undoubtedly have wanted to have his revenge on Caledor after the conflict (unless the sword of khaine had released its grip on him, which seems unlikely at best...), but I think Caledor wouldn't have thought it. He knew that summoning the vortex might save elf kind, but that it would doom him. Had he successfully escaped the vortex and had Aenarion survived, I suspect he would have accepted punishment (and even death) by Aenarion's hand (the mortal god and his friend, remember), if only to save the elven race that he loved so dearly.

[Giladis]

No Asur would bow down to darkness no matter who represented it. That was the reason why Caledor left in the first place.

[Playa23]

@Giladis
firstly I thought it was quite funny that your pic is Yoda and when i read your reply I read it with a Yoda voice in mind. Thanks for putting the effort into that reply and I knew that Tyrion and Techlis were not descendent's of Malekith I was just trying to eliminate alternatives. What I was trying to get at was the 'taint' within them both. If they are descendent's of Astarielle then why do they have the Taint. Were they not concieved before the drawing of the Sword Of Khaine?

[Giladis]

Yes they were, but the curse of the gods is not something that is carried by blood.

In truth all elves are tainted by Aenarions actions but those that are his kin suffer the most, one does not simply draw the sword of the god of murder without consequences.

[Playa23]

That makes a lot more sense I guess and is probably the only explanation. Hey at least that's cleared up! thanks