DA's Ice Warriors - small update, DR std finished

[Keledron]

As probably one of the few people who have physically seen the complete unit minus the paint work they look really good in real life the pics tend to make them look a bit chunkier than they really are.

DA has addressed most of the saddlry issues with some slever placement of add ons and as all his other models pretty much are converted to wear thick fur coats as well so the whole army looks bulked up despite being standard DE plastics underneath so the extra bulk of the marauder model bases for these isn't the most noticable thing when you see the unit in context of his whole army.

Nice to see the paint work going on looking forward to seeing them all soon

kel

[Georc]

Yeah, the fur is green stuff.

I know that sculpturing is a difficult part in the hobby and I´m happy about everyone who is willing to master it. Nethertheless I see that same beginner mistakes on most conversions and greens, so here. I miss sharp edges and most important the detail degree and typical shape given by the original miniature or the miniature of the range is missing.

Here some fur I did:

http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/ ... Lion12.jpg

You see the skeins are shorter, have a triangular shape and every single one is off set to all others. Yours look more than only pushed into the putty and you caan´t see the beginning and the end of one skein. I think this could be better and I´m sure you can

I have written a tutorial about the most important sculpturing basics, but it´s in German language. sorry that I have no translation but perhaps you can understand it when using a translation program... google has one

http://www.das-bemalforum.de/kb.php?mode=article&k=8

Take care of the curing times and try to master smotthing and sharp edges.

I hope this helps you become better.
Beside that I very like your Dark riders. I´m look forward what will come next.

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Thanks for the advice Georc. I looked at your fur but I think it is too thick for what I was trying to achieve. Think fine wolf fur.

I agree with your point about it not looking quite right. The photograph shows up the error which I will try to correct with the next test model.

Look for an update next week...

[Mordru]

I don't know about you DA but having GeOrc try to teach me about sculpting would be like having Roger Federer try to teach me about tennis. Those guys are both so far out of my league that they will have a tough time instructing me.... I just don't have enough talent to duplicate, even in rudimnetary fashion what they can do. Maybe you can benefit from it more than I. Loving this thread keep it up man.

[Georc]

Thanks for the advice Georc. I looked at your fur but I think it is too thick for what I was trying to achieve. Think fine wolf fur.

I agree with your point about it not looking quite right. The photograph shows up the error which I will try to correct with the next test model.

Look for an update next week...

I see no problem here, it´s only an example for the triangular shape. You can make it thinner and longer or thinner and shorter. The take home message is / was that you shoud look for a good off set of each skein and a trianguale shape adds a more natural look because natural (not cut ) hair normaly has less long hairs and much shorter hairs which get together in a skein which looks triangular. Even if you have a fur which identical hair lenght you mus think on your size of miniature. Most sculptured parts are schematicly or symbolic for a better identification through the brain. It´s only for the impression and has nothing to do with realism. Same here. The brain identifies the triangular shape at once as fur. This is an important thing to know when creating details and the degree of details in this small size that these work for your brain. Hope you understand what I mean, cause it´s difficult for me to explain in english.

@ Mordru,
Normaly it´s better to help ppl directly. I must see them sculpturing and painting to correct them at once and have a chance to lift them on a high level in a short time. Nether the less most I do is only skill and experience, both came with pracice and a good teaching. Having lead several ppl to a golden demon trophy in less than a year shows me that everyone can learn this with patience, a lot of practice and of course with a good teacher.
I think I will met DA on the German ETC, so perhaps we have the chance to discuss some things personally

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

I don't know about you DA but having GeOrc try to teach me about sculpting would be like having Roger Federer try to teach me about tennis. Those guys are both so far out of my league that they will have a tough time instructing me.... I just don't have enough talent to duplicate, even in rudimnetary fashion what they can do. Maybe you can benefit from it more than I. Loving this thread keep it up man.

I know what you mean, but it is really great having the direct advice. Over on twf GeOrc gave me a fantastic insight into painting black, which I have endeavoured to try and use with my dragon. His explanations and diagrams are really great and easy to understand.

Thanks for the advice Georc. I looked at your fur but I think it is too thick for what I was trying to achieve. Think fine wolf fur.

I agree with your point about it not looking quite right. The photograph shows up the error which I will try to correct with the next test model.

Look for an update next week...

I see no problem here, it´s only an example for the triangular shape. You can make it thinner and longer or thinner and shorter. The take home message is / was that you shoud look for a good off set of each skein and a trianguale shape adds a more natural look because natural (not cut ) hair normaly has less long hairs and much shorter hairs which get together in a skein which looks triangular. Even if you have a fur which identical hair lenght you mus think on your size of miniature. Most sculptured parts are schematicly or symbolic for a better identification through the brain. It´s only for the impression and has nothing to do with realism. Same here. The brain identifies the triangular shape at once as fur. This is an important thing to know when creating details and the degree of details in this small size that these work for your brain. Hope you understand what I mean, cause it´s difficult for me to explain in english.

@ Mordru,
Normaly it´s better to help ppl directly. I must see them sculpturing and painting to correct them at once and have a chance to lift them on a high level in a short time. Nether the less most I do is only skill and experience, both came with pracice and a good teaching. Having lead several ppl to a golden demon trophy in less than a year shows me that everyone can learn this with patience, a lot of practice and of course with a good teacher.
I think I will met DA on the German ETC, so perhaps we have the chance to discuss some things personally

Kind Regards GeOrc

Ok I understand what you mean. I will try and apply that to achieve the look I am after. Thanks for the help and advice, I really appreciate it

It will be awesome if you do attend the ETC. I will have this army with me as Jedy and I are playing an exhibition game on the Friday night. Be cool to get some 'real life' advice. Looking forward to it.

Are you playing for a team or just going to visit?

[Georc]

Off Topic:

@ DA,
I registerd for the ETC Side event. If everything goes well I will play with my temple of Khaine army there. But in the moment it doesn´t goes well enough. I have great problems to get my army playable, especially in a less restricted environment like the ETC. My List is to fluffy and nice, but I like it this way because it´s pure Khaine. Nether the less loosing every game makes it frustrating... Also a problem is to get the whole army finished in time. You know my work and it would be no GeOrc army if there wouldn´t be awesome conversions, sculpts and paint jobs which shadows everything seen before. All these takes a lot of time even if I´m better and faster in my skills, especially in sculpturing than ever before.
I think I will be also earlier there so I try to join you and jedy for having some fun, beer and sharing some tips and tricks

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Ah, your temple of khaine. Sorry but I forgot all about that. Do you want to send me your list of figures, or better still start an army list thread and I will endeavour to help as much as I can with your tactics and composition.

[Georc]

@ DA,
I posted my list and ideas on the AL board. Looking forward to your feedback.
Kind Regards GeOrc

[Thanee]

So, in keeping with my slightly chaotic theme I was delighted when the new Marauder Horse were released. Perfect for Dark Rider conversions I thought. And so the story begins...

Yep, I also found the Marauder Horses to be quite good fit for Dark Elves (only the marks of chaos have to be removed).

I'm using Thallion Rider horses from Rackham for mine (posted the pictures of the horses a while ago, I find them very fitting for light cavalry).

Bye
Thanee

[Dark Alliance]

@ DA,
I posted my list and ideas on the AL board. Looking forward to your feedback.
Kind Regards GeOrc

Done.

So, in keeping with my slightly chaotic theme I was delighted when the new Marauder Horse were released. Perfect for Dark Rider conversions I thought. And so the story begins...

Yep, I also found the Marauder Horses to be quite good fit for Dark Elves (only the marks of chaos have to be removed).


I'm using Thallion Rider horses from Rackham for mine (posted the pictures of the horses a while ago, I find them very fitting for light cavalry).

Bye
Thanee

I used the Thalion for my Suprem Sorceress here:

[Dark Alliance]

@ GeOrc:

I'm doing some more work on the DR standard bearer. I have painted fine vertical lines along the fur to break up the appearance of the green stuff where I used too large a tool for the shaping. I have used paint to remove the curved effect at the top of each depression, and gone for a matted fur look.

It depicts a very well worn and dirty fur skin which I think has put a little more realism into the sculpt.

The next stage I could do with some advice on is the free hand work for the banner itself. It is the actual banner from the Marauder horse so is a long narrow banner.

I want to paint a skull. If you look at page 77 of the DE army book, I want to mimic the 4th skull from the right on the top row of shields. The dimensions of this are very suitable for the shape of this banner.

I'm happy with my banner background highlighting for now. My first question is should I finish the banner highlighting before I start the iconography? I think not but am in your hands.

My second question is how to best go about reproducing my chosen design?

Thanks buddy.

[Georc]

@ DA,
sounds very good. I often also correct my bad sculpturing work with a good paint job. Hope you put a pic here so that I can take a closer look.

So then lets talk about some freehand stuff.

I always paint the complete banner background first with all highlights and shadows. It´s better to finish it even if you have to do a lot corrections later. Especially when you have a complicated banner motiv it´s hard to paint the background in the end. So finish it fist and then do a clean freehand. In many cases there is only a little correction to get a sharp shape of the motiv.

Most important things on Freehands is to start rough and then to add more and more detail. Also the rough shape started small and then you add more and more volume to lines, areas until these have the size you need. Ok let me search for some pics to describe what I said:

Step one:

a rough sketch: http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/AST01.jpg

Step two:

adding more volume to areas and add details. All this was done with less thinned paints to get a quick result. I think the thinning degree was 1:2 not more. The first blendings were done with a thinning degree of 1:4.

http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/AST02.jpg

Step three:

Adding more highlights and shadows. Also paint the background against the freehand. That´s very important it´s like ebb and flow, you paint your pic against the background and then the background against the pic. The last thing is that what most ppl didn´t do and that´s why their freehands look grubby and fuzzy. This method helps you to sharp your motif and get a good offset.

http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/AST03.jpg


Step four:

Care four a good incorporation of your motiv. A lonely big symbol like a skull looks often attached and less like it is woven into the banner itself. That´s what a frame is four and further applications like small runes which helps to fill the space. I learned that comlicated banners look often more natural than lonely symbols. Taking a look on historical banners approve that.

Here the front side which ofers a lot of details and eyecatchers and so catch a much longer look

http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/AST04.jpg

Here the backside with a lonley symbol which has a completly different effect:

http://www.dunkelelfen-georc.de/Bilder/Public/AST05.jpg

But this is also a matter of taste, but I think a frame is the minimum what should be added then working with symbols instead of complex pictures.


I hope this helps you. Let me know when there are questions left.

Kind Regards GeOrc

[Dark Alliance]

Ok I understand. Again, a very informative answer and the pictures help a lot.

I have never thought before about starting the background off smaller than the size I am looking for. It makes perfect sense of course! That is the first fundamental error I have been making.

The second mistake I have made in the past, and the next really relevant piece of advice you have given is regarding the frame. I don't like complicated banners myself but the inclusion of a frame onto this particular model will work wonders. I can see it in my minds eye now.

Watch this space. I will work on it over the next few days.

Thanks again.

[Thanee]

I used the Thalion for my Suprem Sorceress here: ...

Nice.


I'm also planning to use the new mounted Sorceress on a Dark Pegasus (using the Pegasus from the older 4th? 5th? Edition Morathi model, which I like a lot). I have actually cut the legs from the Cold One that comes with her (destroying the CO in the process), because they are just such a perfect fit (only needs a bit of greenstuff now), and changed the dagger-hand to one holding a crossbow (Lifetaker).

Right now, I'm unsure, whether I'm going to build her like that, however (I don't find myself using Pegasus-mounted Sorceresses enough), and have used the upper body part on the new Morathi Pegasus (without-wings) as a Lifetaker-Sorceress-on-Dark-Steed. That looks very nice, too. Ahh... decisions, decisions.

Bye
Thanee

[Dark Alliance]

That lifetaker girlie sounds nice. I need to make one myself. I sold my last ds mounted Sorceress on ebay.

Ah the benefits of hindsight...more work to do now!

[Thanee]

Here's a picture (it's rather blurry (cellphone camera), but should give an idea). The body is glued on temporary, needs some greenstuff to have it tilted backwards a bit further (but only once I decided what to do with it ).



Bye
Thanee

[Dark Alliance]

Be good to see it finished.

[Lonely shade]

I approve DA. My only advice (to give this post some actual value) is add more character to the horse. I find horses with speckles, patches, etc. make them look more realistic and alot more kick-ass. I expect to do the same thing conversion as soon as I finish assembling and painting the half army I recently bought because of the new edition (on second thought, this may be awhile...). And completely off topic, but I noticed you have almost 9000 posts, and thats ALOT.

- Lonely

[Dark Alliance]

That is just the first horse. My intention is to make each horse look different anyway, whilst trying to maintain the intent of dark steeds.

Although my army fluff indicates how the army has had to resupply from local sources during its long time in the Chaos Wastes, I believe they would try to find steeds that at least try to resemble their normal mounts.

Thanks for the comments and input though.

[Dark Alliance]

The dragon from above. C & C welcome guys (especially GeOrc )



Close up of the scales. Started these using GeOrc's recommendation for highlighting from the bottom.



Close up of the head work. As the Lord is carrying Caledor's Bane the tip of his lance will match the blended colours of the dragon tongue.



The rider, and the start of the iconography on the saddle blamkets.



Work still to do obviously, but I thought I would get some mid-way critique. Lots of base work still needed before anyone asks.

[Whereswaldo82]

Hey dark,
I really lov this look of this dragon. Finally a black dragon that isn't you know PURPLE. I love the scale colors and the extra skulls and trophies on the dragon itself. Was extrememly curious how you painted your wings b/c I think that is one of the better wing looks for a dragon that I have seen and really want to know how you did it.

[Layne]

Goodnissss, flippers. What is it, some kind of Sea Dragon?

[Dark Alliance]

Thanks. The wings are sprayed matt black before painting the arms and skeletal features with charadon granite from GW's Foundation range.

I then used scorched brown to paint a fairly broad line along the edge of each membrane area where they join the skeletal arms. I also painted a little scorched brown into the cuts in the wings, especially along the rear edges of the membranes.

Next stage is to blend in some bestial brown to lighten the scorched brown areas. I was looking to achieve a kind of dirty, worn feel.

The next stage is the most critical imo. I used Dehneb Stone, another Foundation paint, and with a roughly 60/40 mix of water to paint I used a fine brush and with a drawing brush stroke I drew lines in each membrane. The direction of the brush stroke was from the front of the wing to the back.

Once this was dry I thickened up the areas of the membrane where I figured it would be more dense as the light would not be able to penetrate the wing so readily.

Once dry, the underside was washed with a single coat of Badab Black from GW's range of washes. The upper side was given 2 coats with the same wash.

I may yet darken it down some more. I'm waiting to hear what GeOrc thinks...

[Georc]

Hi DA,
I saw it and will answer you detailed tomarrow.

Kind Regards GeOrc