Manticores...

Kendoka · Post by **Kendoka** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:56 pm

Regarding the upcoming GW Manticore: What happened with Quality Control?

Although I am thrilled over the massive "Storm of Magic" release I just cannot get past the fact that GW has produced yet another (actually two) sculpts to rival Nagash and Pumbagor for the "Worst Miniature Of All Time"-award.

The Chimera is "MacDonalds toy meets soft plastic Godzilla" and beyond critique.

The Manticore has some merit - but is nevertheless shockingly bad.
What happened with the approach Jes Goodwin took while sculpting the excellent Cold Ones (studying anatomy etc.)???

Some of my thoughts:

Compare the above with the excellent (although quite small) sculpt below - and see what could have been...
The head, mouth, teeth, horns, pose, claws etc. of the Raging Heroes Manticore is just superior - making the GW one look clumsy and as if sculpted in Play Dough.

Even if Jes was booked and had no time to draw concepts the 'net is full of Manticore concepts that could have worked:

faeli-n · Post by **faeli-n** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:13 pm

Paint job is pretty horrific too, but I understand that this is a Chaos Manticore, not a DE one...

To be honest it's the arms that really ruin it for me, but a few different angles might help (i.e. reveal that the tail is a bit longer).

Post by **Kinslayer** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:28 pm

"Give me a hug so I can lick your face"

I don't really like the pose (and sculpt, from what I have seen) of the DE dragon either.

Or the chimaira.

Or the cockatrice...

Eolelfslayer · Post by **Eolelfslayer** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:41 pm

Yup, i dont like the manticore (bad sculpt) and can barely tolerate the cockatrice (just a tad better). I dont mind the DE dragon, though, nor his rider.
The foot sorcerers are all pretty convincing (including the DE sorceress, actually), even if the tzeentchy sorceror looks far more like a demonic herald than a mortal.

Post by **Kinslayer** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:00 pm

EolElfslayer wrote:Yup, i dont like the manticore (bad sculpt) and can barely tolerate the cockatrice (just a tad better). I dont mind the DE dragon, though, nor his rider.
The foot sorcerers are all pretty convincing (including the DE sorceress, actually), even if the tzeentchy sorceror looks far more like a demonic herald than a mortal.

Yes, I quite like the sorcerer models too. With the Tzeentch one looking like a herald, I guess that was the point, so it can be used as either or.

Kython · Post by **Kython** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:11 pm

This thing bears even less resemblance to a manticore than the last one. Even the chimera looks more like a lion than the manticore. I'm glad I already have a manticore.
The human-sized models are all fine with me, but if GW insist on releasing an expansion that focuses on monsters, they should really make some good models to go with it, not like these ones which look half done, as if they had too little time in the design process and just threw something together, without looking if the finished product met their standards.
Unfortunately, there will be a lot more people who praise the new minis, so that people who are dissatisfied will go unheard, and GW will feel they can get away with sub-standard releases, as they have in the past; like when they were too lazy to write a new high elf army book and just wrote 8th on the old one.

Blacklotus · Post by **Blacklotus** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Raging heroes wins

Saintofm · Post by **Saintofm** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:37 pm

I think I'll stick with the old one, thank you. I want a monster, not a kitty cat

Enkiel · Post by **Enkiel** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:49 pm

so, its the whole story of complaining about a model before seeing it in the flesh? how often has this happened so far?

And just like any other time, people will change their mind once they get it in their hand.

as for that other Manticore WIP product, i dont know, do you really wanna pay even more just to get some kind of hulk-meet-lion-meet-pegasus kinda beef, that has so many detail that you can just dip it and be done with it?

I'd personally wait to at least get my hand on it before trashing it like that.

Blacklotus · Post by **Blacklotus** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:41 pm

post some pics for me when u get one

Kuanor · Post by **Kuanor** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:47 pm

Normally I would agree with you, and this is what I would say to people who already criticize the dragon. But in this case, what do you imagine could happen when you “get your hand on it” so that the model suddenly starts looking somehow good and just a little less terrible?

I have no idea.

Enkiel · Post by **Enkiel** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:05 am

Kuanor wrote:Normally I would agree with you, and this is what I would say to people who already criticize the dragon. But in this case, what do you imagine could happen when you “get your hand on it” so that the model suddenly starts looking somehow good and just a little less terrible?

I have no idea.

you're basing your judgement of a model on a single photo.

That's what happened with the minotaurs, that's what happened with the Razorgor (the first two that came to mind when thinking about flaming before seeing the product).

Once you have the minotaur in your hand, you can really see the model's great possibility, and that actually, its another case of heavy metal going too far.

Once we get to see that manticore in different angle, and with better coloring (lets face it, its a pretty weird rainbow right now), i'm sure opinions will change.

Kuanor · Post by **Kuanor** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:11 am

Sure there is more potential than we see in the picture above.
The thing is, it needs a lot more and I really cannot imagine where it could hide. And normally I have no problem imagining a model coloured differently.

Blacklotus · Post by **Blacklotus** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:13 am

Funny u bash the Raging Heroes without holding it. Then give a speech about the GW one. Which side r u on man...

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:48 am

It was made by a different sculptor thus his own take on things. I think Jes is still working on the SoB figs. Simple solution, you don't like it then don't buy it. I still prefer the old Manticore anyway it to be honest it's not so dated really.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:16 pm

Yup, manticores are such a bad choice right now that it's a moot point. But yes, other than the Cockatrice, which was sculpted by the godlike A Hedstrom ( who also sculpted our executioners), the plastic monsters are not at all to my liking... even the dragon.

Eolelfslayer · Post by **Eolelfslayer** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:31 pm

Hello all,
had a second look to the black dragon, and i confirm i do like it. Even the two riders look fair enough, with the dreadlord closely resembling the bada$$ we see on our army book cover. Cockatrice is kind of half decent, though it could have been much better. Manticore is, imho, a no-no.
All foot models are ok, with the necromancer and sorceress being better.
Did'nt get the chance to look at the chimera, anyone got links?

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:39 pm

The Manticore is a CHaos Manticore, so I think it is fine -- except for those hands/paws that ruin the sculpt.

Jmr · Post by **Jmr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:36 pm

I'd just like to point out that this picture has been photoshopped for some reason. The arms are obviously fake. Just look at the fingers on it's paws. They're exactly the same (notice the nails).

If you look at the same model in this picture: http://www.envisageweb.co.uk/DSC_3.jpg , you can see that the model has different paws. They're partly blocked, but you can tell they're painted blackish.

Not sure what whoever did this photoshop was trying to achieve...

Edit: They also did something with it's right wing...

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:34 pm

JMR wrote:I'd just like to point out that this picture has been photoshopped for some reason. The arms are obviously fake. Just look at the fingers on it's paws. They're exactly the same (notice the nails).

You are absolutely right!

In the big picture, although paws can't be seen, the forearms are clearly painted black. This pic is a FAKE.

Kajchi · Post by **Kajchi** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:00 pm

I think he took the arm from the other manticore pictured and recoloured it. Maybe it was just an attempt to get a picture of a manticore that wasn't obscured by any models? He still screwed around with the bottom finger and the other arm though.

Kuanor · Post by **Kuanor** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:52 pm

It’s not a “FAKE”, it’s a try to show a complete manticore because on the original photo it is not.

However the skulls belong on the staff, not on the wing.

Kendoka · Post by **Kendoka** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:45 pm

[quote="Kuanor"]It’s not a “FAKE”, it’s a try to show a complete manticore because on the original photo it is not. ;)
However the skulls belong o the staff, not zu the wing.[/quote]

Yes.
I did the best I could (during the few minutes I spent) to remove distracting foreground objects and recreate a complete mini from two partial images.
I did a quick and dirty PS job - and did not even try to make it look real.
Obviously there are things on my pic (like the pose of the second paw) that is not exactly correct - but the fact remains: The mini is poor (although the Chimera is *a lot worse*).

... and I did not clone the skulls away as I felt no GW mini is complete without them ;)

Cailil · Post by **Cailil** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:14 pm

I'm not a fan of this new Chaos Manticore (or the chimera) but I'm much less of a fan of the internet drama about it. Sure it may not the best (and looks from all the photos to be amongst the worst) of Trish's work but 'nuff said. Your points are well made and the raging heroes Manticore looks good (muc prefer it myself TBH).

If you want to spend all this time and effort on the topic of SoM Manticores why not go with finding more alternatives?!
There are a number of decent to very good conversions of Manticores using the IOB griffon, some friendlier looking ones using HE Lions and Dark Pegasus wings; and then there's the DE's very own Manticore (who although sufferring from the 'hug-me' arms) can look good with the right paintjob and a little imagination with GS http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=36184&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=200 http://khorneguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/hellebron-and-her-manticore.html. There's also the clawed fiend from the Dark Eldar range that with some conversion would look perfect for a chaos manticore. I know converting can be time consuming and sometimes expensive but personally it's one of the main reasons I'm involved with the hobby. That said I don't know anyone who'd actually *play* a manticore these days.

Kendoka · Post by **Kendoka** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:43 pm

>cailil:
>... a number of decent to very good conversions of Manticores...

Have yet to see a "very good" one.
Most are in the "looking bad but enough Manticore-ish to justify count-as".

> IOB griffon

Only the hind part (excluding tail) may be used as a manti. Not much to work with...

> HE Lions and Dark Pegasus wings

They are OK at best. I have made a few myself (WIP):

> DE's very own Manticore

You mean GWs old one. It is showing its age - but has some good parts.

> clawed fiend

Sorry, but I see no way that creature could become a manti.