Raiding lustria just an excuse to finish the revision?

[Lord arenus]

Is it just me who thinks that the DE attacking Lustria is just an excuse for gav thorpe to give us the new magic items that we desperatly need? After all he said in the revision that he only wanted to have things changed which were really desperate eg executioners armour and did'nt want to make too many changes because it would be confusioning. It will be interesting to see at the end of SOC whether the items we gain are similar to the ones we wanted in the revision! If gav is desperate to give us items to balence the DE out more then it means that even if we only do so so in the campaign we will still get plenty of stuff!

[/\\//\]

Well yes this is an opportunity to give us some new items but then this is the case for any race. I doubt we will get any items if we do badly in the campaign.

[Mtucache]

That is kind of a different way to think of it, but it does seem plausible.

This whole "attacking Lustria" thing hasn't sat right with me since I first read it.....I just can't figure out how we can get what we want and still have it fit into the fluff and make sense.

Firstly, let me apologize for any feelings I hurt here, this isnt' meant as an argument to take away from the fun of this campaign, only a probe into why we are going to end up doing what we will. I don't want to crap on anyone's Cornflakes here, I just have some questions about how this all came together.

As I see it, the entire point of the "DE invading Lustria" plan is to add some much needed magic items to our list. But what exactly are we looking to find there?

Looking at it fluffwise: Any magic items there are probably already being used by the Lizardmen (they're not so dumb as to overlook powerful magic items right under their nose). So along comes this big group of Dark Elves who just start ran-sacking villages and temples willy-nilly looking for some all-powerful swords and talismans? That seems like a pretty silly plan to me. If the Lizards already know where the magic items are, let them find them and bring them to us, we can trade for them easier than we can ransack random areas looking for who-knows-what. Maybe they'd like some High Elf slaves, and maybe they'd be willing to trade some cool magic items to us if we play nice and keep our Arks over towards Ulthuan instead. So this doesn't fit into the Dark Elf mentality too well, but then again, neither does sending armies anywhere other then Ulthuan.

Looking at it gamewise: The main players in the battle are pretty well defined, as well as any immediate allies they may have. Chaos is going to attack the Empire. Orcs/Goblins and Bretonnians join the fray. Wood Elves go after the Beastmen in Drakwald. High Elves and Dwarves begrudgingly honor their duties and help the Empire out as well.
- That leaves the rest of us on the sidelines (Skaven, TK, VC, DE, Lizardmen). So, GW has to come up with some sort of action for us to get involved in. VC is kind of evil, so they'll probably end up getting lumped into the attack on the Empire (even if they don't want to). Dark Elves would typically go after the High Elves, but the HE will be far too busy helping defend the Empire to be defending themselves (and there's no way GW could let the HE kingdom fall). Skaven and Lizardmen basically get screwed, because thier fluff doesn't really define any primary enemies or on-going allegiances, at least any that would get them into the main battle at Middenhiem. So, what else can GW do except pair us up against each other for some toe-to-toe slugfests.....? The Dark Elves get conveniently paired up with the Lizardmen because we have the ability to transport an army to their lands, and we just happen to need some magic items, which they just happen to have a reputation for hoarding.

The whole thing just seems a little contrived to me. I'd really rather be involved in the main battle at Middenhiem (with or against Chaos). I'm sure this will be an option for us as well, but it seems like the main DE battle will be with Lizardmen, which is sort of unprecedented in either history.

Anybody have any more information as to how this pairing came together? And more importantly, how the Lizardmen are reacting to our apparently new-found aggression towards them?

[Hari]

Dark elves raiding party always strike the coast of lustria in the fluff;

Btw someone has lost the point it isn’t a “DE invasion of Lustria” but, has i had heard of it, is a raid of the Cult of Pleasure led by Morathi to gain some powerful artifact of great value for Slaanesh, who is a bitter enemy of the Slaan.

The point is that all the people are toomuch looking at new magic items from the slaan pyramids, to see that the reward at these actions can also be granted by Slaanesh, and every fellow follower of Khaine must take whatever action is necessary to stop him to gain power in our society.

[Jhaelrnya]

Any magic items there are probably already being used by the Lizardmen (they're not so dumb as to overlook powerful magic items right under their nose).

I thought they were the ones that controlled Albion originally, and the Old Ones were the ones to put up the Mists. And the GoP etc came from there, meaning they do not always USE the items they have. Just a theory.
Plus, I figure GW doesn't look as far into the resons for stuff as we do. They just say "ok, we have to do this, so lets make them do this...". Can be aggrivating sometimes (most of the time).

[Underway]

Too the original post. Yes, it is quite possible that GW wants to help the DE get more magic items to address the imbalances in our magic list. It is possible that Gav (who was denied allowing magic item changes in the revision by his boss) is finding a sneaky way of getting us these items.

@MTUCache: The fluff reasons for the invasion of Lustria is essentially this. Morathi will be leading an army to gain artifacts that may help in the reclamation of ulthuan. That is what she has told Malekith. Really what she is doing is resurecting the Cult of Pleasure and probably carving out her own little empire. Malekith probably knows all about it and is using Morathi for his own ends (like he always seems too ). The war in Ulthuan will still rage, chaos warbands will still attack the watchtowers and life will continue as normal. The who invasion of Lustria thing is essentially starting as a side show to normal Dark Elf behaviour with the potential to blossum into something so much more over the course of the campaign.

So to conclude, it fits the fluff entirely (especially if you read the Lizardmen book as it talks about numerous conflicts with the Dark Elves including a Lizardmen raid on Karond Kar to recover artifacts confiscated by us).

Lizardmen BTW will be fighting in the Old World against Chaos. They will magically transport armies there to help the Conclave of Light. The Dark Elf invasion of Lustria is really just a side show that can remove the influence of the Lizzies in the Old World.

VC will be fighting AGAINST chaos. They really don't want their cattle (humans) to turn into spawn so they will take the fight to Archaon, (not to mention the obvious Von Carstein defence of Sylvania, and the Blood Dragon need to seek out the most powerful opponents to fight)

Skaven will be on the side of Chaos, as Throt the unclean will be building bigger and better monsters for them, and Clan Eshin will be trying to infultrate Middenheim from below.

TK no idea (but they will have a major part in the 2006 Return of Nagash campaign!)

As such most armies will be heavily involved in the fighting, with a few side stories. I hope this answers your questions and reduces your need to crap in peoples corkflakes regarding this subject.

[Sluggo]

Plus, I figure GW doesn't look as far into the resons for stuff as we do. They just say "ok, we have to do this, so lets make them do this...". Can be aggrivating sometimes (most of the time).

This is because the WH world isn't like a typical written fantasy world, where changes can be made solely on story or the whim of the author. Any "storyline" decision made in the WH universe has commercial and sales implications. Thus these sort of decisions can't be made willy-nilly, but have to be considered by company executives from a sales, production and cost standpoint.

Whereas WH fans like to sit around and think about cool directions in which the fluff could go, none of these musings ever involve the myriad commercial realities that GW has to consider when writing fluff. Remember, the fluff exists only to sell product, the product does not exist to serve the fluff. So like the GI Joe cartoons serving as a commercial for the toys, the same applies here.

Think of the most logical direction the fluff can take in terms of selling the most product and promoting the hobby, and you're thinking in the correct terms. Specific storyline coherence and dramatic creativity will always take a backseat.

[Megapimp]

That does not make it less stupid

The high elves are at a party in the empire, and now the DE got the biggest chance EVER to win against them in ulthuan...so what do we do? Go into a completly worthless jungle! Woohoo....

[Warbucks]

I figure we need to "earn" new items and they shouldn't be given to us. If Gav Thorpe thought for one minute about giving the Dark Elves new items, we may have been happy, but it just doesn't seem realistic in a warhammer way.

[Mtucache]

As such most armies will be heavily involved in the fighting, with a few side stories. I hope this answers your questions and reduces your need to crap in peoples corkflakes regarding this subject.

Alright, thanks for the info....obviously I haven't been able to keep a whole lot of attention focused on the rumor mill lately. The reasons/explanations you give are sound and do seem to make more sense than what I had originally thought. I guess I got a little carried away in the side-stories here, and forgot to keep in mind that any army can attack any other one when they want, and battles will not be forced down our throats (at least, we can hope so).

Hope you're not losing your appetite for your breakfast.

[/\\//\]

That does not make it less stupid

The high elves are at a party in the empire, and now the DE got the biggest chance EVER to win against them in ulthuan...so what do we do? Go into a completly worthless jungle! Woohoo....

No, the Ulthuan NAVY is going to the Old World to help the CoL, the citizen militia troops are all staying behind to defend against Malekith.

[Megapimp]

Yes, no navy to oppose us= easy landing

As I said, better chance then ever and their top wizard is away too

[Langmann]

I figure we need to "earn" new items and they shouldn't be given to us. If Gav Thorpe thought for one minute about giving the Dark Elves new items, we may have been happy, but it just doesn't seem realistic in a warhammer way.

I figure you should be happy Gav T actually cares.

This entire campaign, fighting lizards, or whatever, isn't so DE can get new items. DE have been fighting lizards for years. If you go to Warhammer World they have a huge model display of DE fighting Lizardmen...

If Gav T attached some new balanced items to the list, why complain? I just don't understand this way of thinking at all, it's a big waste of time. Seems like people need to complain about something almost for no reason at times.

Let's ransack those dirty lizard scroats and take all their powerful items as well. Seems like a good idea to me.

[/\\//\]

Yes, no navy to oppose us= easy landing

As I said, better chance then ever and their top wizard is away too

We never find the landing difficult; it's when we get on land that they suddenly pull off their amazing trick with them beating us back with basically Tyrion and Teclis alone .

[Underway]

If Gav T attached some new balanced items to the list, why complain? I just don't understand this way of thinking at all, it's a big waste of time. Seems like people need to complain about something almost for no reason at times.

Agreed. But then again not everyone has the close working relationship with Gav like you do Langmann. I know how hard he tried to get magic items into the revision, and i also know that he was shot down by those above him in the organization. Most people don't realize this. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I certainly hope that there will be new items with the CoP list. Whether they can only be used by the CoP or the regular list should be interesting to see. I am personally looking forward to any new magical banners that may be in the works.

[Morfeusz]

Perhaps I have misunderstood the article in WD about the revision, but I think Gav had stated there, that these are rough and ready changes, and they won't change until next warhammer edition...

[Dark Alliance]

The WD Revision article is an official amendment to the DE book.

[Criti]

I get a feeling that a fast one is going to get pulled on us. I think the DE WILL raid Lustria, but once we get whatever we're after, we'll turn our sights to Ulthuan. Tyrion and the HE will have no choice but to try and stop us, and the Lizardmen won't get the opportunity to chase down the DE, because I have a feeling the Skaven will pop up in Lustria (I don't know if anyone is familiar with Lizardmen fluff besides me, but the Skaven have attacked the Slann several times in the past).

[Geophrim]

Honestly, I think the thing to keep in mind is the mechanics of the Campaign (as we know them so far). As much as I hate being led around by the nose by GW, the campaign sounds like it's set up in the rules objective that we DE's "WIN" if we crush Lustria, and "LOSE", if we go against Chaos. Sad but true. We score no points except for pride (which is valuable, mind you, but not going to help you get the magic items that help us carve our way through the Scaven Army of Doom) by going off on our own tangent and, for example, kicking the living daylights out of Chaos. I think we all agree that DE's could use more help in the GW revision department for army balance, especially in receiving more magic items regardless of the source, and I for one am willing to eat my pride for a time to gain a little more balance in the DE army list; if nothing else so that more new WHF players will join DE, and not be frightened away from playing a "weak army". I suggest, for the sake of our race's general popularity, regardless of the rationale behind GW's moves, that we bite the bullet and attack the assigned target. Just think, another varient of the GoP? Hey, I'll run around Seattle NAKED FOR THAT!!!! LOL Maybe I'm a sell-out, but I'm sick of being assigned the label of "weakest" army.

[Langmann]

Just think, another varient of the GoP? Hey, I'll run around Seattle NAKED FOR THAT!!!! LOL

I'll ask Gav if he'll go for it and get back you.

[Geophrim]

Just think, another varient of the GoP? Hey, I'll run around Seattle NAKED FOR THAT!!!! LOL

I'll ask Gav if he'll go for it and get back you.

[quote]


All right! Maybe they'll take pictures for White Dwarf!

[Warbucks]

I figure we need to "earn" new items and they shouldn't be given to us. If Gav Thorpe thought for one minute about giving the Dark Elves new items, we may have been happy, but it just doesn't seem realistic in a warhammer way.

I figure you should be happy Gav T actually cares.

This entire campaign, fighting lizards, or whatever, isn't so DE can get new items. DE have been fighting lizards for years. If you go to Warhammer World they have a huge model display of DE fighting Lizardmen...

If Gav T attached some new balanced items to the list, why complain? I just don't understand this way of thinking at all, it's a big waste of time. Seems like people need to complain about something almost for no reason at times.

Let's ransack those dirty lizard scroats and take all their powerful items as well. Seems like a good idea to me.

I am glad my personal oppinion is taken with such acrimony.

Seems to me like you thought I was bad mouthing GT or something.

I (IN MY OPPINION) believe that just handing some new "balancing items" to the Dark Elves (THE ONLY ARMY I PLAY) is a bit absurd. I believe that offering us new magical items for a summer campaign will give us more motivation to get those new items that are rightfully ours.

Oh well, I had my say, but I think you misunderstood what I wrote or took it the wrong way.

[Langmann]

I figure we need to "earn" new items and they shouldn't be given to us. If Gav Thorpe thought for one minute about giving the Dark Elves new items, we may have been happy, but it just doesn't seem realistic in a warhammer way.

I figure you should be happy Gav T actually cares.

This entire campaign, fighting lizards, or whatever, isn't so DE can get new items. DE have been fighting lizards for years. If you go to Warhammer World they have a huge model display of DE fighting Lizardmen...

If Gav T attached some new balanced items to the list, why complain? I just don't understand this way of thinking at all, it's a big waste of time. Seems like people need to complain about something almost for no reason at times.

Let's ransack those dirty lizard scroats and take all their powerful items as well. Seems like a good idea to me.

I am glad my personal oppinion is taken with such acrimony.

Seems to me like you thought I was bad mouthing GT or something.

I (IN MY OPPINION) believe that just handing some new "balancing items" to the Dark Elves (THE ONLY ARMY I PLAY) is a bit absurd. I believe that offering us new magical items for a summer campaign will give us more motivation to get those new items that are rightfully ours.

Oh well, I had my say, but I think you misunderstood what I wrote or took it the wrong way.

If the DE army needs more magic items to be balanced or interesting we shouldn't have to fight a silly campaign to get them. What if we lose? We don't get the items or we still get the items anyway? What motivation is that?

IF Gav T is smart enough to sneak in some items using a fluff excuse we should all be happy and not complain. Sometimes a simple, "Thank you." is all that is necessary.

It's like reading the Bible, the Israelites would get pampered and they'd whine, "oh but it's not good enough". So God would give them more, and they'd whine more about how it just doesn't taste right, or isn't warm enough, or they can't touch it. Finally God got fed up and blasted them all over the planet.

[Orteo]

It's like reading the Bible, the Israelites would get pampered and they'd whine, "oh but it's not good enough". So God would give them more, and they'd whine more about how it just doesn't taste right, or isn't warm enough, or they can't touch it. Finally God got fed up and blasted them all over the planet.

That is an odd thing to say for a mod who has been deleting parts of threads that dealt with politics or religion. And though you either butchered what I'm thinking of or are thinking of something completely different, I see your point.

[Hari]

I think that the Druchii point of view shold be similar to that of VC: to transform other cattle-races in chaos spawn is no way a good thing!

Btw we shold use the SoC campaing to gain some thingh! But we must pay attention, another dark elves empire led by Morathi is an awful thingh!

I fear that the new magic items we gain in the campain, (or for the campaign), can be used only by the CoP list; on the other hands every new magic items that can be freely and widely used by our armies are welcome!