Maintaining the Druchii population?

[Thran]

Given that the Dark Elves are just as zealously keen on killing their own as well as other races, how the hell do they keep the population going? I'm not entirely sure that Elves reproduce all that quickly, given that they are supposed to be a declining race.

[Kinslayer]

the elves do not reproduce quickly, no. However the druchii are not as zealously keen on killing their own as you make out, there is a fair amount of infighting within family households and the druchii seek out power, but that just means the strong survive and thrive where the weak do not. That leaves the druchii with a very very good array of warriors in their army as only the most strong, smart and battle-ready druchii will make it to fully adulthood as far as i am aware. Sure there was a civil war between Naggaroth and Hag Graef but then almost all races fight inwardly at some point. Take chaos, all 4 gods plot against eachother as well as their common enemies.

[Mr. anderson]

Sure there was a civil war between Naggaroth and Hag Graef

Oh oh... how's that going to work... Hag Graef fighting against the entirety of Naggaroth? The fact that Hag Graef itself is part of Naggaroth makes the whole thing even more confusing

As to your question: there seems to be some kind of guide embedded in human genes (and considering that elves are somewhat similar to humans I'd expect them to be the same) that after an epidemic or even a big war, there are more births, especially more men are born. Don't ask me why that happens, but it has been recorded that it happens. I assume that because of the death rate in Naggaroth, the birth rate goes up just the same.
Also I think that the killing and infighting in the Darkblade novels are somewhat exaggerated - so much bloodshed cannot be sustained over an extended period of time, there is simply no way that any society could survive that. Of course there is the usual backstabbing going on, but at the same time, outright open conflicts and bloody battles between the cities of Naggaroth are rare, I think because most of the energy of the Kingdom is directed towards slave raids, the defence of their borders against chaos and of course, most importantly, the attempt to regain Ulthuan. There is not much time left for infighting and bloodshed...

HUZZAH!

[Konrad von richtmark]

Elven demographic development is simply something GW has botched, as is all too evident from the BL novel Defenders of Ulthuan. Population decline is just something that's happening, none of the main characters even know why.

And then there's the whole question, if the Asur population is declining on its own, how come the Druchii population isn't driving itself to extinction? They have the same biology as the Asur, they lose population from the wars with the Asur just the same, and they have a much higher tendency towards lethal infighting. Heck, Death Night alone should have a visible demographic impact.

[Kinslayer]

@Mr Anderson - i meant to say Naggarond and yes the civil fighting in the darkblade novels is really exagerated.

[Calisson]

Have a look to the frequency of wars.
How often did a recorded war killed 10% of the elven population?
Once a century?
Compare to medieval Europe and ask the same question.
There you see that elven and human demography is not comparable.
You realize that Elven life is so long that they have a time scale tremendously extended compared to ours and demograpics are not aprehended in the same way.

In Elven society, where old people never die, you never make any sufficient room for the youth.
So it is necessary to have, in peace time, a very strong birth control.
When the population declines, however, you releash the birth rate until the population is back to previous numbers, then you resume birth control because there is probably no way to support too high a population.

If elven are declining, it must be because they have trouble to adapt to fast-evolving world. They are struck into their past and cannot think of the future as an opportunity, but as a better time when the past will be restored.

But I am confident that they can have quickly several children, let's say 3 or 4 children when they are very young (less than 50), then they stop having children (but their offspring do have their own children as well so the population increases steadily) and they start living their destiny (and can get killed without endangering the race).

[Elipsis]

While there is a lot of invading, infighting and sacrificing, the Elves also live longer than humans, so there won't be losses from old age and disease
Even so Death Night i feel is a bit over exaggerated, i don't feel house prices in hag graef are that much, considering you get murderers ENDORSED by the government killing you. If i was there i would consider that week a good one to take the family on holiday and go raid Lustria!

[The griefbringer]

Given that the Dark Elves are just as zealously keen on killing their own as well as other races, how the hell do they keep the population going?

Okay, I'm just gonna jump out here and give the most obvious answer:

They do it. A lot.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to simply consider that the social mores and taboos that keep the Asur and (maybe) Asrai populations in check are simply disregarded by the Druchii. Most of them likely have numerous sexual partners, probably do not practice any kind of birth control, and clearly have no qualms about siring numerous children.

Sure, they are slow birthing, but slow birthing only refers to the time involved for one elven male and one elven female to produce a viable offspring. It says nothing about the frequency with which that process is initiated.

[Kinslayer]

While there is a lot of invading, infighting and sacrificing, the Elves also live longer than humans, so there won't be losses from old age and disease

that is a very good point, not to mention elves are a lot less suceptable to chaos and disease, which in the warhammer world is one of the biggest killers amongst humans.

Im guessing here but all the elves, dark wood and high, in the warhammer world could equal about the number of humans in the empire?

[Gustav]

Griefbringer i saw it the same way as you combined with old age and diseas not killing them off.

The best way to look at it would probably be old age and disease are replaced by the infighting. Plus i always thought the dark elves employed mostly precision strikes against their enemys so if they wanted someone dead they kill him not usually his entire house, minimising the casualties. but i may be wrong. And most of the infighting owuld be between family members ect. so they would want to preserve what they gain from victory by not killing everything.

And yes i also agree deathnight is over the top.

Heartrender have to agree with all elves equaling number of humans in empire.

[Calisson]

Let's state it otherwise:
Dark elves killing each other is an event often seen, but what does "often" mean for an elf? once every 100 years?

[Kinslayer]

good point Calisson, though perhaps not as rare as that. The assassinations which go on by command of the witch king are frequent, but they help him maintain his powerful iron grip over the druchii. And it is that which units them in times of war and raiding, so they dont actually fight amongst themself as much as you may think. Malus just got a bit too big headed and tried attacking the capital, he should have been assassinated.

[Deejayvee]

The in-fighting probably only really happens at the top of the command chain, anyway. A spearmen, for example, would not be stabbing the guy next to him because that would annoy someone higher up in the command chain (a noble or dreadlord, presumably). That noble wouldn't care for the stabbed spearman particularly, but would have considered him a tool to be used. If someone destroyed your hammer for no good reason, you won't be emotinal over it but you're still going to be annoyed because you can't use that tool anymore.

[Bounce]

Whilst there may be a lot of wars and fighting going on between Druchii and other races in most battles the actual death rate is relatively low. You might send 10,000 Dark Elf Warriors forth to do battle but even if you lose probably 6,000-7000 will come back after retreating or just running off. Battles to the death would be seldom seen in the warhammer world.

Consider while playing warhammer that every time a unit flees it will live to fight another day and we can see that the Druchii population perhaps doesn't plummet that much as to make them extinct.

[Eldacar]

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to simply consider that the social mores and taboos that keep the Asur and (maybe) Asrai populations in check are simply disregarded by the Druchii.

High Elves are anything but "prudes", so to speak. It's rare for an Asur to not have more than one sexual partner.

[Mordru]

The decline of the Asur is more a result of their disengagement from the world over the course of centuries not from their physical or emotional decline. Very like the Melniboneans in Elric's time. They grew complacent and did not wish to adapt to the rise of mankind. The Asur are like many great empires in fiction and history torn by political upheaval from the inside and beset by new threats to their holdings away from the homeland. A general social malaise sometimes occurs.

Druchii on the otherhand are driven my the societal belief in their superiority, their need to dominate and revenge/justice against their cousins that have done them greivous wrong. Druchii are motivated to not only maintain their population but to expand their ability to dominate and conquer other peoples. This social reality coupled with the previous long lived factors discussed in this thread and there gender neutral approach to participatin in martial ascpects of the culture means there is no shortage of druchii and it is unlikely that a decline will develop.

[Thran]

Whilst there may be a lot of wars and fighting going on between Druchii and other races in most battles the actual death rate is relatively low. You might send 10,000 Dark Elf Warriors forth to do battle but even if you lose probably 6,000-7000 will come back after retreating or just running off. Battles to the death would be seldom seen in the warhammer world.

Consider while playing warhammer that every time a unit flees it will live to fight another day and we can see that the Druchii population perhaps doesn't plummet that much as to make them extinct.

I'm not really thinking about battlefield losses, but rather the customs and rituals mentioned in DE fluff which tend to border on the self-destructive.

[Khel]

Sure, there's murder within Naggaroth. But their is also a police force (so to speak). Druchii don't murder people willy nilly, they are secretive about it, they hide the bodies. Murder may be a common occurrence, but it doesn't mean it actually affects the well being and the total population of Naggaroth.

[Fingol darkwater]

Not to mention- murder is against the law in Naggaroth.

[Vonkrieglitz]

Population decline is a problem on Ulthuan, not on Naggaroth. Dark Elves reproduce rather quickly, and there is no saying that High Elves wouldn't either. The problem seems to be higher rates of infertile males and females in High Elven society, which could be due to a myriad of things. There has never been any mention in any fluff I am aware of that the Dark Elves are declining in population like the HE. If anything, it always seems to promote the idea that Naggaroth is growing while Ulthuan is declining, leading to the eventual and inevitable victory of the DE, and by extent Chaos in the Warhammer World.

[Zakharra]

Not to mention- murder is against the law in Naggaroth.

Unless you work for the Witch-King. Then it's just justice.

Although killing High Elves in raids outside of Naggaroth is just for sport and profit. Murder depends who's doing the killing and who's being killed.

[Calibisto]

The in-fighting probably only really happens at the top of the command chain, anyway.

Good point.

Also the Dark Elves look differently towards their children then us. As said before they reproduce more often with different partners and with little emotional ties to their partner or children. Should one child die the thought is that it just wasn't strong enough. Genepool cleansing so to speak. No one mourns for a dead child because they (will) have more children.

Like most I also think that DeathNight casualties are exaggerated. All people who live there will have secured their houses pretty well. The victims are the hapless straggler caught after dark, the occasional guard, that kind of thing. If someone dies on DeathNight that person was just too stupid to be outside on a time like this. Again: genepool cleansing.

[Paw]

Aye elves may not reproduce much but due to Dark elves... desires they are never solely bound to one elf. i mean look at warrior regiments some of them are made entirely of a lords extended family and the amount of warrior regiments each city has is huge.

[Gibious]

Top of the chain always backstabbing each other for political power

Bottom of the chain ending up on an alter surrounded by naked witches but alas also end up dead

Many training styles involves to the death combat

Not to forget that even though murder is against the law, looking at somone of a higher rank grants him a bylaw

And then again those who get into battle get lead by some 11year old who only play DE because he likes super strong units that can go toe to toe with chaos??


But on the plus side, we are incredible slavers. And due to our great slavery system we get a lot of spare time...

[Kuanor]

Since Gav's FAQ we have an answer on what he thought while writing the contradictory fluff now discussed in this thread:

Q:

Dju

Hi Gav (and hamster),

I’m not a native English speaker, so please forgive my mistakes. I used to work for Games Workshop France’s translation Studio (I am now translating BL novels, sadly, none of yours yet). I worked on the French version of the previous Dark Elves army book, and the thing that amazed me was the sheer violence of that society. Druchii, being Elves in the first place, are supposed to have a long life span, but how can they even reach the age of manhood (elfhood?), with all the wars (both internal and against the outer world), sacrifices, festivals of violence, celebrations of Khaine and so on ? With the “streets running red with blood” every two weeks? You can’t have so many slaves to play with, so how are they not all dead already?

Thanks a lot, Julien.

Gav:

This is where the difference between setting and story comes into its own. The Dark Elves and their society are an image, created to convey a particular group of emotions and thoughts. As an image they are free from any logic, their nature sustained purely by the needs of narrative determinism and internal consistency. Consistency is not the same as logic, and if one explores the image in too much depth then it will fall apart, just as if one examines a painting one brush stroke at a time one misses the whole painting. Now, this creates a limit on the amount of detail and story that can be injected into any given race or army or event, other than within its own context. The Dark Elves society works (for want of a better term) because that is what the image requires. If one attempts to justify the exact mechanics of this process it threatens to obscure the image. If one explains away one part of the image, it simply invites further question and analysis that the image is not designed to sustain, so that the image is eventually rendered down into the mundane.

This is a tightrope that must be walked by all creators, so that the image still makes ‘sense’ enough to maintain a certain level of believability. Where such questions arise, it is often the case that the image is not strong enough on its own merits to ward away the inquiries. An image that maintains its purity and strength exists for itself and does not require further explanation.

Is it truly possible for a society to exist in the state described for the Dark Elves? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely not. The fact is, it is unimportant whether or not Dark Elves really would need to be butchers and bakers and candlestick makers. What attracts us is the notion that they don’t have these things. This is often described as the Rule of Cool, usually in some kind of derogatory fashion. It is in fact nothing more or less than poetic or literary license to imagine what such a society might look like, rather than to work out the complex mechanics required for it to exist in reality. That is the beauty of fantasy!

... So obviously nothing...