The Old World - Dark Elves Legacy Army List

[Bloodhawk]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/202 ... pdfs-here/
List looks good!

[Cthelthmoore]

It does indeed! Seems like people are praising cold one knights, which I've always loved the older aesthetic of.

[Clockwork]

Oh wow this is a nostalgia trip.

First thing to note is that this isn’t 8th ed. Armour, shooting and melee combat has all been toned down, so it’s difficult to calibrate what’s actually good. That said a few things jumped out at me:

Open order corsairs gives them the niche they need. May be worthwhile chaff alternatives to dark riders out of core.
Shooting is basically relegated to clearing chaff so I can’t see any value in repeater crossbows.
Cold ones with first charge (disrupting enemies to remove rank bonuses) is huge. Knights are very strong and also t4 2+! But pricey. Chariots are cheaper and can March now but lost their 3+ save.
Warlocks aren’t nearly as busted as 8th but are very cheap at a mere 116 points for a unit with a champ that can cast at +1 and select their spell and get a ward. That still seems good to me. I’d actually seriously look at the 10 to get +2 on the 2d6 s4 magic missile spell.
If you still want your witch elf ball of death with a cauldron you can. I never really cared for witches so skipped right over it.
Medusa on foot has some uses but not sure you’d take over the other chaff options. I don’t think the Medusa war shrine has much value to it.
I don’t get why sisters of slaughter are rare, they don’t seem much better than the other elite options.
Both black guard and executioners seem very very good, but will be competing with knights.
Black dragons are CRAZY good. S4 breath weapon with no save!
Hydra and kharibdyss seem weaker but also cheaper. Didn’t use this models before so hard to gauge.
Magic items are very very good. Pendant 4+ ward vs s5 and yes it works on dragons.
Murderous seems like the most pointless rule. Only works with a single non magical hand weapon, so not even witches. Basically medusas or maybe an assassin? Fine but why make it an awsr and write it in everywhere when only 2 units will actually use it.


I’m actually excited to give this a try and disappointed that I sold all my chariots, knights, corsairs and black guard.

[Giladis]

You can chose to use just the Hand Weapon if armed with another non-magical one. Also character with a lance will also use just the Hand Weapon in subsequent rounds if combat.

[Clockwork]

You can chose to use just the Hand Weapon if armed with another non-magical one. Also character with a lance will also use just the Hand Weapon in subsequent rounds if combat.

Seems pointless. Rr1 to wound will never be better than the other options. Most heroes will want a magic weapon or a great weapon over a Lance anyway.

[Bloodhawk]

You can chose to use just the Hand Weapon if armed with another non-magical one. Also character with a lance will also use just the Hand Weapon in subsequent rounds if combat.

Seems pointless. Rr1 to wound will never be better than the other options. Most heroes will want a magic weapon or a great weapon over a Lance anyway.

It's only useful for knights in next rounds after charging - they use hand weapons. Also for sorceress on DP, when charging chaff.

[Cthelthmoore]

Cold One Knights don't actually have this rule, the main reason for it being so likely a mistake is because of who gets it and how redundant it is for them. All the heroes get it (they won't ever use it since they want magic weapons or its quite possible that an additional hand weapon is better in all cases), executioners (their draich is a much better option), witch elves (the extra hand weapon is a better option) and the snake woman who I think can actually use it. Possibly more have it but I forget.

In any case, the skaven one is missing some skittering horde rule entirely and the Hippogriff pelt is apparently useless, along with some other stuff in the official lists that I'm again forgetting. Even if the lists turn out to be balanced, they did need more proofreading!

[Clockwork]

So it turns out dark riders have skirmishers and get scout

[Jeffleong13]

It’s been a long time since I got out the square bases, and I am looking forward to it. So glad they based this more on 6th than 8th.

[Angelizdark]

yeah it seems incomplete, but on the brightside, Beastmasters are cheap Lords!

[pathstrider22]

So it turns out dark riders have skirmishers and get scout

Though it's worth noting that Skirmishers that aren't on foot don't get the -1 to hit, so I think it's a choice whether to go Open Order or Skirmisher.

On Dark Riders: It seems to me that on top of the mobility benefits, they're a better place to get Repeater Crossbow shots compared to city guard given city guard have a minimum unit size of 10 and can't shoot in multiple ranks any more (unless you're very lucky to have a hill that is within 24" of the enemy).

[Clockwork]

yeah it seems incomplete, but on the brightside, Beastmasters are cheap Lords!

Beastmasters are a very cheap way to get a flying terror monster (manticore) and also to make a terror monster special. I think they are very good.

[The_Peacemaker]

I read the DE book when it came out. Then I went and read a few other books. Empire book is pretty bad, auto-include Steam Tank and Demigryphs - if you don't take these then the only option are knights & infantry but then you might as well play Brets. BUT, the Stank/Demigryph build is fun and works.

I'm reading through DE again and I'm loving it. It will be my main army since T9A DE book was badly designed.
Honestly every unit entry and upgrades looks viable. At the very least it can be played in fun games. ....Go look at Empire pistoliers and compare them to outriders and you'll see what a dead entry pistoliers is - not even viable to take in fun games.

Dread Elves in TOW will be a satisfying army to play. And since its "not supported", there is little risk of an army book coming out with new rules that are badly designed, or pay to win new models! Enjoyment for many years!!

[Clockwork]

I read the DE book when it came out. Then I went and read a few other books. Empire book is pretty bad, auto-include Steam Tank and Demigryphs - if you don't take these then the only option are knights & infantry but then you might as well play Brets. BUT, the Stank/Demigryph build is fun and works.

I'm reading through DE again and I'm loving it. It will be my main army since T9A DE book was badly designed.
Honestly every unit entry and upgrades looks viable. At the very least it can be played in fun games. ....Go look at Empire pistoliers and compare them to outriders and you'll see what a dead entry pistoliers is - not even viable to take in fun games.

Dread Elves in TOW will be a satisfying army to play. And since its "not supported", there is little risk of an army book coming out with new rules that are badly designed, or pay to win new models! Enjoyment for many years!!

Yeah I’m really excited, someone has done a bang up job. Somebody really hated 8th Ed warlocks though!

It’s not all perfect but most of those issues are due to the core game (specifically the general weakness of infantry).

If I didn’t already have a decent collection I wouldn’t know where to start! (Although I wish I had kept my corsairs, chariots and knights!!).

All thats missing is a place to discuss it with my fellow druchii. Ulthuan.net is still quite active with a lot of the old faces but I haven’t found somewhere dedicated just to dark elves.

[Daeron]

My thoughts on the Dark Elves.

Overall, I like the PDF and legacy support that the dark elves are given. At first glance, the rules feel appropriate and flavourful. The units look and feel as if they are in line with what you'd expect from Dark Elves. It is difficult for me, at this point anyhow, to assess the power or balance of the Dark Elves, since I haven't had enough games yet and not fought against many opponents.


Army composition

There are no big surprises here. Most of our options feel flavourful or in line with other armies. I'm a big fan of the 50% for all characters. It seem very flexible and kind towards smaller lists, and in turn it opens up hobby and narrative options.

I like that we can still get one Witch Elf unit in core with a Hag. That should be enough to build very flavourful Khainite lists.
Black Guard come with Lords, playing as a sort of body guard for the nobility.

Monster mash is still an option, and even facilitated. Lovely!
Warlocks get an additional limitation which is understandable after the 8th edition power trip.

Nobles

No big surprises. We lost the re-rolls on the hit, which is to be expected in this toned down edition. But we kept Strike First. This opens up the use of Great Weapons at initiative. It's certainly a viable option.
The Full Plate armour helps to compensate for the armour loss in mounts and the sea dragon cloak.

Sorceresses

A (very) few surprises:

• Our Hekarti's blessing is weaker than the High Elf equivelent, being single use.
• We lost a point of leadership from the Supreme Sorceress. This feels like a big change for me. I would occasionally get a Level 4 Sorceress as general in small games. This change hints that they are to be seen as support characters, not leaders.

A small note: we don't have access to necromancy. This isn't a big surprise but it echoes a change in the tone of the lore. The history of the Tomb Kings no longer mentions the role of a Dark Elf Sorceress in their discovery and exploration of Death magic and necromancy. Does this imply a lore change?

Beastmaster

The beastmaster is surprisingly good. He lacks a tad of armour, but otherwise seems to outclass the Master a tad for a mere 5 points.

I'll definitely prepare my beastmaster on manticore for this edition!

Death Hags

A stat line you would expect, with the exception of its leadership of 8. This will make witch elf units more subject to frenzy rolls.
She could play a role in a leadership bomb, or beef up the attack potential of the witch elves.

Assassins

Tricksy as always. I would check if they can combine their poison rules with magic weapons. The poisons don't work like "poison" but instead seem to confer special rules to the character itself, applying the buff to both melee and ranged weapons. I'll have to read up on the details here.

Mounts

The Dark Pegasus no longer grants +1 Toughness, which is a pity. Our Sorceresses will feel that one!

City Guard

Are exactly what you'd expect. They seem fairly priced but it's hard to guess how often they'll see use.
The Warriors are fairly generic.
The crossbows are nice. With a magic banner, it becomes possible to give them armour piercing which is a very valuable stat in this edition. In a wide frontage, they even have reasonably good defense capabilities.

Corsairs

They could be 1 point overcosted, but time will tell. With the change to sea dragon cloaks, they only have a 6+ armour save in combat.
On the other hand, they move through cover and have the open order.

It feels like they are a very good choice in specific scenarios. They are flavourful to say the least.

Initially I wished they were skirmishers, but perhaps the subtle benefits of open order aren't clear to me.

Black Guard

They feel very, very solid. My only fear is their cost. I am surprised to see them as regular infantry instead of heavy infantry, which I think would have served them. Drilled makes them even more expensive, but I expect this will allow some expert plays.

Executioners

They feel more tricky than the black guard. Their biggest benefit is strength and the occasional chance to cleave through armour, but in return they feel less reliable. They remain flavourful though!

Shades

They never failed me.. and it looks like they will be a terrific unit in this edition again!
Some interesting upgrades to experiment with, but I generally use them in such small units that they don't need those.

I'm hesitant to give them great weapons now, but with additional hand weapons and the current rules for skirmishes in combat, they can be excellent to clear chaff.

Daughters of Khaine

The Witch Elf is as you would expect, priced fairly.
The Sisters of Slaughter feel quite expensive for what is a very technical unit. Their special ability can play an interesting role in a leadership bomb. I would expect them to be very effective against other regular infantry, but they could fall short against tougher or more armoured opponents.

Harpies

They look alright as a small support unit. I wouldn't expect greatness from them in any other role.

Cold One Knights

They have grown expensive, but they do seem to pack a punch in return!
Their defensive stat line is a valuable commodity in this edition, and with an incredible charge strength, and the ability to disrupt the enemy, there will be tales of them smashing units in a single round.
Ld9 will keep some of the stupidity at bay.

I expect they will be a popular pick, perhaps with a sorceress or noble in the unit.

Dark Riders

Even fully upgraded they are well worth their points. 5+ save and repeater crossbows, yes please! Skirmishers makes them super flexible and handy in the charge. With enough range, they could reform on the charge to form a wide front and get as many attacks in as possible.

The fire and flee rule isn't all that expensive for an extra round of shooting.

I will undoubtedly be playing these a lot.

Warlocks

The Warlocks have been seriously toned down but they remain a peculiar unit. With S4 poison attacks they can just about deliver a surprise attack to light units. For their magic, "fickle" is the word you're looking for:

• Daemonic Familiars and Vortex of Chaos can be cast on 8+, but these feel a tad weak.
• The other spells look much better, including the very interesting magic missile "The Summoning" at a cast value of 9+. Unfortunately, their max level 2 means they have a 58% chance to cast that spell at best.

Cauldron of Blood

I don't really know what to make of it. On one hand, it no longer buffs a single unit passively. On the other hand it can provide a blanket buff to half an army through bound spells. Then again, these spells have only a 58% chance to succeed. Because it's a large target, it can become a missile magnet.

However, in all other aspects, it seems like a decent heavy chariot. A combined charge of this, with the witch elves, is quite likely to smash any but the most armoured units to bits.

While I don't expect this to be an auto-include, it still feels very flavourful and powerful.

Scourgerunner Chariots

On paper they are an ok-ish light chariot, but we will probably favour heavy duty units.
Still, these have situational uses. You can pick up to 3 chariots in a single unit. The combined charge power of that is pretty big.

It doesn't feel like it's worth it for its shooting either. The crossbows are nice, but other units provide that more efficiently.

The Harpoon feels fickle. It relies on a single multiwound attack, it has a limited range, and revieves a -2 on the hit when it moves. You'll be hitting on 4+ or worse most of the time. The High Beastmaster may join a chariot, but not replace the crew. The rules state that it must be the crew shooting the harpoon.

That said, if it can hit, it has the potential to be a danger against monsters, single characters and other chariots. And if nothing else is available, it could shoot warmachines.
Since such enemy monsters are often large targets, the chariots can hide behind a unit for protection. The unit shields them from being charged, while the large target rule allows the chariot to shoot over the unit.

I think it may take some experimentation, but I think other special choices will be more preferable.

Cold One Chariot

This feels like a very solid heavy chariot. Toughness, armour and offensive power are all good. It's the speed and stupidity that are the challenge

Bloodwrack Shrine

Similarly to the Bloodwrack Shrine, it will require some playtesting to see its value. It looks like a decent heavy chariot on paper, but because it's a large target it can become a missile magnet.

The strength of this unit seems to lie mostly in combat. The stony stare feels dicy and situational, but the other attacks seem decent.

It has one shooting attack, the pretrifying gaze. This feels like a gimmick, but keep it in mind. It might take an enemy by surprise, especially a Dwarven Gyrocopter, Steamtank or comparable tough target.

Black Dragon

They look amazing! Just try one!
They might just be one of the best dragons in the game. The insane toughness and wounds, the breath weapon, ... It's as if they plan to release a new dragon model.

Manticore

My biggest scare on this, is that it only gets T4. This makes it vulnerable to so many attacks. Ideally it should have had Toughness 5.
But other than that, it feels like such a fun monster to include.

The poisoned tail is a bit meh but everything else screams fun! I'm not sure it will be competitive, but it will be fun to field one of these, provided you can get it across the board before it gets shot down.

Also, with the High Beastmaster, it can have D3 extra attacks!

War Hydra

They look fun! 2+5 attacks from the beast, 2 more from the handlers, stomp. There's some decent offensive power, but it will need some assistance. The 5+ regen save is also a neat help.

Bloodwrack Medusa

I'm not sure where to put it. On one hand it's relatively fast, it has okay-ish fighting power and some gimmicks. But it doesn't have much protection. Then again, it's cheap.

It feels like a unit that will damn the enemy if they ignore it, or damn the enemy if they spend time focusing fire on it.

Kharibdyss

It doesn't have the regen of the hydra, which is a tremendous drawback. But... the quality of its attacks is slightly higher and stable.
It also can assist in a leadership bomb.

Reaper Bolt Thrower

They're back, and they are good. They have been toned down a tad, from 6 shots to d3+3. But overall they still look like decent support.

Magic items

• Executioner's Axe - the biggest drawback is the cost. It looks very powerful though, and can be combined with a shield... apparently.
• Sword of Ruin looks really wonderful if you can accept the cost. I expect it to be favoured in duels against other characters.
• Lifetaker - While not particularly powerful, if you keep in mind it will mostly hit on 2's, it can be convenient to clear some chaff or get a few wounds in to beef up the blood armour.
• Whip of Agony looks like a gimmick, but on a manticore it can be funny. Because it strikes first, it can lower the toughness of a target before the manticore attacks come in. Now it buffs your manticore!

Generally, I feel the weapons are expensive for what they deliver. They can be fun! But great weapons are so cost efficient that they might be preferable.

On to armour:

• Shield of Grond - Inverse +1 toughness. This can be handy for mounted characters, but it will require them to sacrifice the great weapon.
• Blood Armour - I think this is very interesting, especially for a character on foot with a great weapon. Since some attacks are likely to strike first, those wounds will beef up the character afterwards. Also Lifetaker fun!

Situational stuff in short, but fun!

Talismans

• Pendant of Khaeleth - Good stuff. 4+/5+ ward save. Neat.
• Pearl of Infinite Bleakness - I like this, but I think I'll need more games to fully appreciate the value of this.

Magic Standards

• Banner of Nagarythe - It feels too expensive for what it offers - but perhaps there's a trick? On a BSB, you get +2 static combat resolution. An infantry unit can push that to a total of +6. A Cold One Knight unit can easily push it to +4, maybe +5. This increases the chances dramatically to make the enemy retreat in good order, and give the Knights another charge.
• Standard of Slaughter - And there you have it. Ideal for Cold One Knights and more cost efficient than the BSB.
• Banner of Har Ganeth - There is no unit that does not want this. This will be almost an auto include.
• Cold-Blooded Banner - I like it. We have many "unstable" units, from stupidity, frenzy or some other rule. This can help to make that one check you really need to work. But it's a pity you have to declare usage before the test!

Enchanted items

• Black Dragon Egg - It's gross and we love it. It's not competitive, but it has lead to some hilarious moments at our tables and I'm happy to see it again! It can be terrific on a character on a peg, or on a steed. With the toughness, the character should be fine for a turn to be out of position for the breath attack.
• Hydra's Tooth - It feels like it needs something more to be effective. Maybe on an assassin with manbane? The short range makes it difficult to use, unless it's on a character that move about a lot like a dark steed or a character in a shade unit. I think lone characters will be investing their points in defense more.
• The Guiding Eye - Although I like this item, there aren't many incentives for big shooty units.

In short: it's all a little situational.

Arcane Items

• Black Staff - A very powerful item. Level 4 and this will give you a devastating caster.
• Focus Familiar - Don't leave home without a few. Casting a Black Horror in Turn 1 from the starting ground? Or a pillar of fire which you can direct in subsequent turns? Yes please! This will be popular.
• Tome of Furion - It's good but not necessary? If you have 10 points left, you'll probably get the focus familiar instead. On a level 2 sorceress it's nice, but you probably will end up choosing battle magic anyhow. On a level 4, it's okay if you want to minimize the risk of not getting that one spell you're dependent on.

Special Rules

• Cleaving blow is a cheap man's killing blow. It's sad that they took killing blow, but then they do let the executioners strike on initiative. So.. more easy to use I guess?
• Elven Reflexes is a nice extra. On the charge we should be unrivaled, but when holding against a charge, this might make all the difference.
• Hekarti's Blessing - well... I guess High Elves had to have a better one.
• Martial Prowess - I like these kinds of buffs, even though we should probably avoid needing it.
• Murderous - One of the most useless abilities in the game. It could function as a buff for the 2nd round for a character that uses a lance. But other than that, it won't see use.
• Sea Dragon Cloak - it pains me to see it has no use in combat. Especially for Corsairs. But it still remains desirable for characters.

[Clockwork]

My thoughts on the Dark Elves.

Great analysis Daeron. Some thoughts on your thoughts.

* I completely missed that Hekarti was OPG. I was taking Black Staff as a way to dodge miscast, but now I’ve swapped it to earthing rod and power scroll (with Familiar and Ruby Ring). This still gives you 2 attempts to force through a key spell.

* I really wanted to like the the high beastmaster as I did model for ninth age, and in fact had one in all of my early lists as a cheap flying terror causer (terror is very strong). Then I realised I was still assuming a +1 save for being mounted and that it could only get to 3+ vs ranged and that really put me off (technically you can give it dazzling helm for a 2+ ranged but then no pendant). I really struggle to see how it fits in now as completion for hero points will be fierce, and while the dragon is double the cost it’s so much better.

* Pegasus has counter charge which is great but then you realise you can’t take it for nobles anymore

* I really want to like corsairs this edition as open order seems the niche that they were missing, but the fundamental problem with corsairs is the same as any infantry: cavalry is so much stronger. Given that most infantry now caps out at +2 rank bonus, I’m struggling to find reasons not to just take dark rider core and indeed have been toying with the idea of a block of 10 with a banner solely to act as mobile “infantry.”

* Early indications are that knights are incredible strong. 5 models or as a bus with master BSb and level 4 daemonology. 2+ armour save is rare and powerful in old world. Stupidity is a handicap, but t4 2+ and high elven initiative should carry them through it (especially with daemonology buffs).

Stupidity also doesn’t prevent you shooting or casting magic missiles, so pack a life taker on your cold one BSb and a ruby ring on your cold one sorceress. Now you still get to contribute to the game even on a failed test and pack a stand and shoot too, which might be enough to put off charging units.

Now give the unit Har Ganeth banner. That’s a lot of s4 Ap1 attacks, enough to be a deterrent to any great weapon unit due to high initiative, while any s4 unit is likely to bounce off t4/2+. Now give them the razor standard also and we’re cooking with gas.

* Somebody at GW is really harbouring a grudge about 8th Ed warlocks. Lost an attack, a spell, a pip of ward save and made it to conditional. Wood elf sisters retain an unconditional 4++. Nonetheless they are cheap and picking the spell is advantageous (probably summoning, maybe daemonic vessel). You will prize them out of my cold dead hands.

* Kharibydss vs hydra still needs to be seen how the game plays out with shooting and artillery. I’m attracted to the kharibydss because a) abyssal howl is extremely powerful (initial indications are that combats are grind fests and you don’t get as many opportunities to completely wipe units by breaking them as in 8th, so stacking ld penalties is strong) b) it hits like a truck with great AP which the hydra lacks and c) WS5.

Hydra breath weapon is stonks though. But I don’t feel like the game is going to have a lot of infantry blocks, which the hydra excels at.

* Bolt throwers now suffer multiple shot penalty means you’re hitting on 4s all the time sometimes 5s. Shades seem to be almost always superior now for cheaper cost (and advantage of scouting and doubling as emergency chaff).

* Black dragon egg is really let down by the fact it only lasts until the end of your turn if it was end of round it would be very good.

[ClssicSupreme11]

Exciting news indeed for fans of Warhammer: The Old World! The release of the game, along with the promise of more stock and additional content like Made to Order releases for factions such as the Tomb Kings of Khemri and Kingdom of Bretonnia, indicates a vibrant future for the game. The mention of full Grand Army lists for the seven legacy factions from Warhammer Fantasy Battles is sure to entice existing players looking to dive back into the world of ranked combat.

It's encouraging to see the dedication to providing support and content for both new players and veterans alike. With the green tide looming on the horizon, it seems like there's plenty to look forward to in the World of Legend. The announcement reflects a commitment to keeping the game alive and thriving, ensuring that fans can continue to enjoy the rich lore and strategic gameplay that Warhammer is known for.