I feel the tide is turning and not in my favor. I have had a VERY good run of victories in fantasy (14 wins in a row!) but I am coming up against ever increasing lists of nastiness. It is only a matter of time until i lose (i drew at the weekend, although it was a 3k vs 3.5k combined force of Orcs/Empire).
My regular opponent has started bringing a set list that is really starting to bug me, and the real pain in all of it is Gorbad.
For those who don't have a O&G book, Gorbad is a LD10 General that also counts as BSB, has an 18" inspiring presence, removes the cap on number of big un's being taken and, if that's not enough, more or less removes the animosity rolls of O&GS (they can still fail, but it always will result in them charging in a worst case scenario).
My opponent basically uses a thick line of Orc Big Un's (40 man, 10x4), and hide Gorbad behind them. This pretty much means that his entire battle line is immune to panic! Coupled with an Arachnarok which seems to have gotten harder all of a sudden when facing me, and two doom divers who, despite being hidden at the very back of the field, seem to be able to reduce my cavalry and chariots into mulch very quickly.
So, how would people deal with this?
My initial reaction would be to POK a Lord on Peg, give him heartseeker and a potion of strength and kill Gorbad. But his proximity means he will simply walk the guy into a big unit of Orc's and refuse any challenge i issue.
My other tactic was to give a level 4 mage with Sac dagger and big unit of spearmen Death magic so that i can try and kill him! The biggest problem that i see with this is that he can hide behind a unit/cover and i'll never be able to see the bugger!
Other than that, has anyone got any real good tactics to deal with Arachnarok's? My shooting seems to have dropped recently and even my stubborn witch elves with an assassin (poisoned attacks being my key idea here) seemed to prove no match for it (not even holding a single turn, but i was unlucky with my rolls).
Righty-ho! Sorry for the long post but i think it is important you understand the context my opponent uses this special character: not as a combat monster or a leader, but instead just to turn an unruly army that is unreliable into a force that is generally more disciplined that anything else!
Regards
D
Gorbad, Spiders and Big 'Un's! A combination made in hell!
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Dante valentine
- Cold One Knight
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Gorbad, Spiders and Big 'Un's! A combination made in hell!
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
seems gorbad needs to meat some reaper bolth throwers
take 1 or 2 and blow him of his high horse, he's tougness 5 with 3 wounds and a 3+? as , and thats it, then charge with terrorcausers, like hydra's, maybe lokhir fellheart in a big unit of corsairs, with a shadowmage held back to reduce those big un's to the fighting capacity of high elves (insult not litteraly, that would be scary) and just clean house
remember a terrorcausing unit also causes fear, so if he makes his terrortest when you charge he needs to make fear test, on a ld 7 i believe from orcs, ld 6 from goblins and ld 5 from night goblins
this also means, that, when night goblins flee, their fanatics are destroyed.
happy times at the shooting range
take 1 or 2 and blow him of his high horse, he's tougness 5 with 3 wounds and a 3+? as , and thats it, then charge with terrorcausers, like hydra's, maybe lokhir fellheart in a big unit of corsairs, with a shadowmage held back to reduce those big un's to the fighting capacity of high elves (insult not litteraly, that would be scary) and just clean house
remember a terrorcausing unit also causes fear, so if he makes his terrortest when you charge he needs to make fear test, on a ld 7 i believe from orcs, ld 6 from goblins and ld 5 from night goblins
this also means, that, when night goblins flee, their fanatics are destroyed.
happy times at the shooting range
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Dark reaper
- Highborn
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Reapers won't work because he's hiding gorbad behind the units in front of him.
My best advice would be to take a big block of executioners, with cauldron behind them and a Death Hag BSB on the edge (aligned as 40 - 10x4) and thrust these straight up into the face of his big uns. You'll be hitting on 3s (2s if you can cast enchanted blades of aiban on them) and then killing on 2s. Buff them with a 5+ ward save for protection against doom divers on the way over, and then with an extra attack each in combat. 41 hatred attacks at WS5 and S6 should chew straight through the big uns unit and out the other side (most of the unit will be dead, so he won't get many attacks back and he won't get steadfast either). It's possible your death hag may die in the process, but by that time your work will have been done (she'll let the execs strike in initiative order, meaning they go first). Give the unit the standard of +1 movement, to get them into combat (and out of the way of warmachine fire) as quickly as possible...
I play against O&G quite often and have found execs by far and away the best way of dealing with their T4 light/medium armour.
My best advice would be to take a big block of executioners, with cauldron behind them and a Death Hag BSB on the edge (aligned as 40 - 10x4) and thrust these straight up into the face of his big uns. You'll be hitting on 3s (2s if you can cast enchanted blades of aiban on them) and then killing on 2s. Buff them with a 5+ ward save for protection against doom divers on the way over, and then with an extra attack each in combat. 41 hatred attacks at WS5 and S6 should chew straight through the big uns unit and out the other side (most of the unit will be dead, so he won't get many attacks back and he won't get steadfast either). It's possible your death hag may die in the process, but by that time your work will have been done (she'll let the execs strike in initiative order, meaning they go first). Give the unit the standard of +1 movement, to get them into combat (and out of the way of warmachine fire) as quickly as possible...
I play against O&G quite often and have found execs by far and away the best way of dealing with their T4 light/medium armour.
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Dante valentine
- Cold One Knight
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@ Flash 29 - Bolt throwers aren't going to help me with Gorbad and his LD is going to be 10 on his Goblin etc (with reroll) because of Gorbad, this being my problem!
@ Dark Reaper - A variety if i'm honest. Savage are nasty but i would rather face one of these than two units of normal ones. Either way they can chew through anything BUT Buffed executioners.
@ Red - I do like the idea of a big unit of executioners. Last game i managed to Okkam Mindrazor my 50 man unit of Spearmen who suddenly turned into a carnage machine! (Stab Stab Stab).
Keep the idea's coming. My biggest problem still remains Gorbad - he remains too tough to kill with light, fast units (harpies & DR's), too fast to catch with infantry units (bloody mount!) and too potent with his benefits just to ignore. Any unit i face up against i am pretty confident i can beat one way or another, its just so annoying that the Goblins/Wolf Riders/etc on the flanks, who would normally be out of range of the General OR BSB are in range of both, thus making them utterly unconcerned with shooting. Which is obviously a bugger cos they are so cheap they can be used in big enough numbers to be VERY effective.
I need to kill him..... or smash his model into pieces to make me feel better!
D
@ Dark Reaper - A variety if i'm honest. Savage are nasty but i would rather face one of these than two units of normal ones. Either way they can chew through anything BUT Buffed executioners.
@ Red - I do like the idea of a big unit of executioners. Last game i managed to Okkam Mindrazor my 50 man unit of Spearmen who suddenly turned into a carnage machine! (Stab Stab Stab).
Keep the idea's coming. My biggest problem still remains Gorbad - he remains too tough to kill with light, fast units (harpies & DR's), too fast to catch with infantry units (bloody mount!) and too potent with his benefits just to ignore. Any unit i face up against i am pretty confident i can beat one way or another, its just so annoying that the Goblins/Wolf Riders/etc on the flanks, who would normally be out of range of the General OR BSB are in range of both, thus making them utterly unconcerned with shooting. Which is obviously a bugger cos they are so cheap they can be used in big enough numbers to be VERY effective.
I need to kill him..... or smash his model into pieces to make me feel better!
D
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
Indeed - in fact you could run the execs as 36 (12x3) because orcs are 25mm bases: would let you get a few more attacks in before he strikes back.
IIRC in the 7th ed army book Gorbad loses his 18" radius once he loses a wound and it drops to 6" instead (or was that axed in the new army book?). If so, you only need to do one wound to him before his power becomes infinitely worse.
Shooting versus O&G is not a good way to go. S3 vs T4 with low points costs = wasteful. Even with the mightily spammed RxB/Withering combo, you are relying on magic going your way in order to do any damage, and that's not a good idea at all.
Fighting is what Dark Elves do best. We may muck around a bit with magic and shooting, but those are more woody/high elfy things to do. We like to fight, and when tooled up right we do it well. Orcs and goblins - who have relatively little shooting - give you a rare chance to really go to town on your fighting units. For example, consider taking some or all of the below:
36 Execs in 12x3 (mmmm, S6)
36 Witches in 12x3 (poison is a god send against low armour, high toughness foes)
18 CoKs in 6x3 (Pain, pure pain - just make sure you get the charge!)
Cauldron of Blood (makes everything else so much better)
Don't bother with corsairs (S3 with no poison isn't worth it vs O&G). Divide your core evenly between RxBs (thin out those fast cavalry a bit), Dark Riders (you really should win against his fast cavalry with Dark Riders, they are still arguably the best fast cav in the game), and blocks of warriors (12x5 gives a nice big steadfast unit for holding against any really really chunky horde units of orcs).
Hydras are def over rated versus O&G. Basic problem is that S5 versus T4 isn't anywhere near as tasty as S5 versus T3. Black Orcs and Big uns will be wounding it on 4s on the first turn of combat too, with -2 to your armour save. That means he's hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, you have a 6+ save and then a 4+ regne save. Not that great when you get whopped by masses of them. Same issue with chariots.
IIRC in the 7th ed army book Gorbad loses his 18" radius once he loses a wound and it drops to 6" instead (or was that axed in the new army book?). If so, you only need to do one wound to him before his power becomes infinitely worse.
Shooting versus O&G is not a good way to go. S3 vs T4 with low points costs = wasteful. Even with the mightily spammed RxB/Withering combo, you are relying on magic going your way in order to do any damage, and that's not a good idea at all.
Fighting is what Dark Elves do best. We may muck around a bit with magic and shooting, but those are more woody/high elfy things to do. We like to fight, and when tooled up right we do it well. Orcs and goblins - who have relatively little shooting - give you a rare chance to really go to town on your fighting units. For example, consider taking some or all of the below:
36 Execs in 12x3 (mmmm, S6)
36 Witches in 12x3 (poison is a god send against low armour, high toughness foes)
18 CoKs in 6x3 (Pain, pure pain - just make sure you get the charge!)
Cauldron of Blood (makes everything else so much better)
Don't bother with corsairs (S3 with no poison isn't worth it vs O&G). Divide your core evenly between RxBs (thin out those fast cavalry a bit), Dark Riders (you really should win against his fast cavalry with Dark Riders, they are still arguably the best fast cav in the game), and blocks of warriors (12x5 gives a nice big steadfast unit for holding against any really really chunky horde units of orcs).
Hydras are def over rated versus O&G. Basic problem is that S5 versus T4 isn't anywhere near as tasty as S5 versus T3. Black Orcs and Big uns will be wounding it on 4s on the first turn of combat too, with -2 to your armour save. That means he's hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, you have a 6+ save and then a 4+ regne save. Not that great when you get whopped by masses of them. Same issue with chariots.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
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Try a Supreme Sorceress with Death Magic, POK on a Dark Peggy. She can run rings around Gorbad and single him out. If the Doomdivers are too much of a problem, give her a focus familiar as well; that way she should be able to get cover from at least one of them.
If Dark Riders/Shades/Harpies aren't hard enough to take Gorbad, use them against your other problem child, the Doomdivers. They should be able to take them down qucikly. Then your combat blocks will be free to close the range while DR/Shades whittle off individual models, helping remove ranks a little quicker.
If Dark Riders/Shades/Harpies aren't hard enough to take Gorbad, use them against your other problem child, the Doomdivers. They should be able to take them down qucikly. Then your combat blocks will be free to close the range while DR/Shades whittle off individual models, helping remove ranks a little quicker.
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Lord tsunami
- Malekith's Best Friend
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gorbad is very fragile. he has a 3+ armour save and that is it. it is true that you cant kill him with stuff like harpies, but even a chillwind will be dangerous to him. or you can use death magic and just snipe him even if he hides in a unit. the big uns wont be too scary with -1S and T either...
Executioners are very powerful indeed, but if he is using savage orc big uns with extra hand weapons, you will have to face 51 attacks on the first turn (at least). that would kill 21 of your executioners before they get to strike back (assuming no buffs on any one), meaning that 40 is too small. i would bump that to 50, or just go a different approach (sine deathstar battles are boring. you bring 50, then he brings 60 then you bring 60 and so on... dull)
EDIT: i saw you recommended a death hag bsb, allowing the executioners to strike first. this will change things, but you would still lose at a big chunk of the unit in the first engagement. also, 40 executioners plus a bsb would cost ~600 ponts? his unit is much much cheaper than that.
Witches might be a viable option. a horde of witches would dish out 51 (61 with cauldron) and they would kill over 20 orcs in the first round, before the orcs got to strike back. all of a sudden he has only 2 ranks remaining, and you should break him on the first turn, using a ~450 point unit of witches rather than a ~600 point unit of executioners.
The orc player in my group always plays gorbad and tbh, its not too tough. he just becomes more like a WoC player than a regular orc player. A good purple sun will decimate the deathstar unit and it can even kill gorbad (unless he is in a cavalry unit). His Ld10 does NOT make all of his nits unbreakable. if you deny steadfast (by killing alot or orcs and charging with multile units) they will run just like every one else. The big un "deathstar" isnt really any different from any other deathstar in the game. just find the ventilation tunnel and use the force
ps. doom divers are laughable tbh. be glad he isnt using catapults, and stop bringing silly things like cavalry
Executioners are very powerful indeed, but if he is using savage orc big uns with extra hand weapons, you will have to face 51 attacks on the first turn (at least). that would kill 21 of your executioners before they get to strike back (assuming no buffs on any one), meaning that 40 is too small. i would bump that to 50, or just go a different approach (sine deathstar battles are boring. you bring 50, then he brings 60 then you bring 60 and so on... dull)
EDIT: i saw you recommended a death hag bsb, allowing the executioners to strike first. this will change things, but you would still lose at a big chunk of the unit in the first engagement. also, 40 executioners plus a bsb would cost ~600 ponts? his unit is much much cheaper than that.
Witches might be a viable option. a horde of witches would dish out 51 (61 with cauldron) and they would kill over 20 orcs in the first round, before the orcs got to strike back. all of a sudden he has only 2 ranks remaining, and you should break him on the first turn, using a ~450 point unit of witches rather than a ~600 point unit of executioners.
The orc player in my group always plays gorbad and tbh, its not too tough. he just becomes more like a WoC player than a regular orc player. A good purple sun will decimate the deathstar unit and it can even kill gorbad (unless he is in a cavalry unit). His Ld10 does NOT make all of his nits unbreakable. if you deny steadfast (by killing alot or orcs and charging with multile units) they will run just like every one else. The big un "deathstar" isnt really any different from any other deathstar in the game. just find the ventilation tunnel and use the force
ps. doom divers are laughable tbh. be glad he isnt using catapults, and stop bringing silly things like cavalry
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My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
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Dante valentine
- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
- Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
Its the accuracy of doom divers that i really don't like! And the fact it's not that you can reduce the scatter but move the final position of the impact, meaning it can shoot around corners!
Gorbad isn't tough himself (although he's not too bad at chopping up Knights and the like), and i have no problem's breaking his big units by and large, its just his massive inspiring presence/bsb/animosity bonus' that make him real annyoying.
Oh and finally I have found that while Hydra's are not very good at breaking big units of Orc's in melee, stopping a few inch short and using two full wound hydra breath weapons can be incredibly effective.
I'm thinking of changing my Lore to Death, Using Spirit Leech on the spider and employing DR as Medium Cavalry on the flanks (so that i don't really have to worry about Wolf Riders etc). Am also thinking that maybe concentrating everything i have on one unit, hitting it with my Cavalry with my Lord (with POK - i don't like it but hey, he has made me do this!), breaking through, then challenging Gorbad. The overall CR should break him and, even if i don't catch him, i'll be able to chase him off the board.
Thanks!
Kindest Regards
D
Gorbad isn't tough himself (although he's not too bad at chopping up Knights and the like), and i have no problem's breaking his big units by and large, its just his massive inspiring presence/bsb/animosity bonus' that make him real annyoying.
Oh and finally I have found that while Hydra's are not very good at breaking big units of Orc's in melee, stopping a few inch short and using two full wound hydra breath weapons can be incredibly effective.
I'm thinking of changing my Lore to Death, Using Spirit Leech on the spider and employing DR as Medium Cavalry on the flanks (so that i don't really have to worry about Wolf Riders etc). Am also thinking that maybe concentrating everything i have on one unit, hitting it with my Cavalry with my Lord (with POK - i don't like it but hey, he has made me do this!), breaking through, then challenging Gorbad. The overall CR should break him and, even if i don't catch him, i'll be able to chase him off the board.
Thanks!
Kindest Regards
D
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
