March Monthly - Battle Plan Challenge

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:08 am

Yup, I used it once in a tournament for the lols, I killed a Blood Thirster like that haha.

Sweeping death · Post by **Sweeping death** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:07 am

What an interesting topic!

Although only a lesser noble at the court of the Witch King, Lord Barashkar rises to the challenge too.

Analysis:

Given conditions:

The fixed list has two big blocks of very aggressive infantry, plus an offensive build for the lv. 4, with Amulet and Black Dragon Egg, which really pushes the army to an offensive style, making sitting back and shooting/long range magic not really an option.

That is however not the best option against HE, one of the possible opponents.

Also, both possible enemy lists will feature big infantry blocks.

Consequence:

The army lacks manouvre units to protect its big fighting blocks and dictate combats, it needs something to deal with superior but fragile asf HE infantry, something against big undead blocks, something against ethereals and the lv. 4 lore can be short ranged. Also, it still needs at least 116 pts of core.

Solution:

Based on that rationale and the given specific restrictions, I´d take the following list:

Characters
SS (lv4) on foot, general 360 pts
Black Amulet, Black Dragon Egg
Lore of Dark Magic
Death Hag, Cauldron of blood 200 pts
BSB 25 pts
Sorc (lvl2) on dark Pegasus 235 pts
Pendant of Khaeleth, Tome of Furion
Lore of Fire

Core
30 Corsairs, add hwpn, fc,, SSS 350 pts
24 Xbows, shields, fc 284 pts
5 Harpies
5 Dark Riders, rxb, mus 117
5 Harpies (55)
5 Harpies (55)
Core valid pts 634 pts

Special
40 Execs, fc, Banner of Swiftness 525 pts
COC
COC
6 Shades, ahw 102
5 Shades, ahw 85

Rare
War Hydra
War Hydra 175

Total (fixed) 2384 pts 2998 pts

Considering that both combat blocks are already pretty good and have COB support and that the army won´t have too much shooting to deal with HE, I´d try to maximize nasty templates as means to deal with the big blocks.

That means another Hydra and Dark Magic for Black Horror. The lv. 4 goes in the Corsairs and gets into hth, relying on the amulet to survive and BDEgg for either HE template destruction, undead CR generation for crumbling or hth use against characters.

Dark Magic is also good against ethereals with its magic missiles and Word of Pain is good support for the combat blocks. The lv 2 goes with Fire and stays with the 24 rxb. Flaming Sword synergizes well with the rxb and Fireball against squishy HE and ethereals.

As core requirement, the DR fill the minimum necessary, while at the same time giving a needed manouvre unit.

Harpies are always excellent and most needed to protect the big blocks, so two more small units.

Finally, the 2 small shade units give more shooting againts HE, threaten RBTs and can be sacrificed if needed.

As general tactic, I´d use a refused flank with the rxb, DR and shades/harpies on one side, while getting close fast on centre/other flank with 2 combat blocks, 2 Hydras and 2 COCs under harpy screen and with COB and short range Dark Magic support for shock and breakthrough.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:18 pm

Looks like this challenge thing is forgotten/abandoned by the creator..

Sweeping death · Post by **Sweeping death** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:57 pm

Yea, sadly.

I think this kind of topic would generate some very interesting ideas and debates. And the whole thing of having to adapt to the preset list was a good challenge and forced one to think about setups and units you wouldn´t necessarely use in your common lists.

Alas

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:10 pm

I dont see why we should just give up on it if everyone is in agreement that it is a good idea. All we need is someone with a bit of tine to complete the following:

2) On March 20 (or around that date), I will select one of the list submitted. With it, I will simulate a battle and give a snapshot of it (Battle Chronicler). From the list selected and the snapshot, you the warlords are asked to suggest a plan for a full turn (movement, magic, shooting and melee).

So we need someone that can use some version of Battle Chronicler or similar. Im assuming that is what the program is called that illustrates a battle field as Dangerous Beans has done with his army list?, put together a Vampire Counts or High Elf (maybe roll a dice or flip a coin or something on what one?) and then pick they army they want to try out (if anyone would like to pick one of the lists submitted then go right ahead. It would probably be easier than having a completely seperate vote for the list).

From there we can continue with the hidden deployment and start off with turn one.

I would volunteer myself but I have no idea how to use any of the battle field maps, unless we are happy with a poorer quality version using some of my high quality Microsoft Paint skills, in which case I can sort a list and battle field out.

Post by **Calisson** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:16 am

Grabuge was active from Feb 14 to Mar 09.
I PMed him on Apr 08 but he did not open his mailbox.
It seems obvious that he had overestimated the time he would spend here.
As he has a very active business RL, no wonder.

The most difficult part of the battle challenge is to get a motivated animator available.
Devils reject, if you're eager to take on the task, I'm sure that Grabuge would be relieved that his good idea keeps flourishing - and every other poster in this thread will praise you.
I'm sure Paint will be sufficient.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:24 am

Bit of a shame that he hasn't been back.

If its okay with everyone then I will go right ahead and take over here (at least until Grabuge returns) so give me a couple of days to find a little bit of time and I'll put together an enemy list and draw up a randomly generated table (and yea, it will be a wonderful Paint version

).

If anyone wants to nominate a list that has been submitted for me to consider as the one to use go right ahead! I will take this into account for when I pick one. Please give a reason too, other than "because this list is my list" haha.

For now I think I will forget about the monthly aspect of this thread and just see how long it happens to play out. If it takes longer than a month then so be it.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:38 pm

Take the time to download Battle Chronicler (doesn't take long at all) and take a bit of time to figure out the basics of it. It is a very very nice program for simulating a Warhammer Fantasy battle like the ones you see in White Dwarf Battle reports. In fact, I swear that's what they use lol.

Not saying this to be fussy, only suggesting it because it is so user friendly. Does take a while to figure out though, but I never regretted taking the time to learn to use it, even if it's just the basic functions.

Either way, thanks for taking over it and keeping it alive!

Sweeping death · Post by **Sweeping death** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:02 am

"Either way, thanks for taking over it and keeping it alive! Smile"

2x

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:21 am

Thanks for the positive comments guys. I have downloaded Battle Chronicler and had a bit of a play around. For the first attempt at this I thought I would put up the map with the enemy units set up already and we can all have a bit of a go at how we would go about setting up our models. I have to be honest here and say that I did over look the section in one of the firsts posts saying:

Player: Conservative (seldom take risks)
Creative (takes rarely seen combo)
Preference for infantry based lists

So the list that I have got with me may not go along with this as much as it should sorry guys. But with that been the only part that I think I missed, here we go!

With limited knowledge of the opponent you can see that they have set up a High Elf force with the following models:

Prince on a Steed
Level 4 Arch Mage
BSB on a Steed
Level 2 Mage
40 spears in 8 ranks of 5. Full command
2x14 archers musician
2 Lion Chariots
15 Phoenix Guard. Full command
10 Dragon Princes. Full command
10 Swordmasters. banner musician
3 Great Eagles

But without access to any more information than this it will be a mystery to you as to what magic items, banners and other surprises may await you.

So lets have a look at what has been set up before you:

The terrain was all randomly generated with the large hill on the right been a regular hill and the smaller hill on the left becoming an Anvil of Vaul. Flaming Magical attacks for everyone within 6 inches! The hills are gentle slopes with no trace of a cliff face. The forests and stone walls have not been pre-decided and so the element of risk may still be with them. The building in the centre of the table is 2 storeys high, has an entrance facing towards each set up zone and you are more than welcome to shoot out of any side with any ranged unit you may have make it inside.The Dark Elf set up zone is within the bottom row of squares, 24 inches away from the enemy.

All we need now is an army to use! so here's the list we will be using:

Lv4 w/ Amulet & BDE (Dark Magic) general

CoB BSB
Lv2 on DP w/ PoK & ToF (Metal)

Assassin w/ Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine, Black Lotus and AHW (goes in Executioner unit - preferable, can also go into Corsairs)

30 Corsairs w/ AHW, FC & SSS. (6x5) or (7x4+2)
24 xBows w/ Sh & FC (12x2) then (6x4 when combat starts)
30 SM w/ Sh, FC & Banner of Discipline (6x5)
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

40 Executioners w/ FC & BoS (10x4)
CoC
CoC

Hydra

I found all of the lists put forward interesting for various reasons but thought I would pick the one put forward by Meteor. So there is 13 units (including characters) for you guys to play around with and put forward your tactical ideas for both set up and battle plan. After a bit I will put up the complete High Elf list and see how that changes any ones plans.

I'll be happy to answer any questions people may have as best as I can, or if I have overlooked anything feel free to point that out too.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:05 pm

I thought that list looked familiar lol. Man HE...the army I dislike facing off against since they negate our high I, WS and make our hatred ability look second rate

Well without further ado, I'll have a crack at deployment for the selected list.

The Analysis
Looking at their setup, I will use one of my old methods in 8th ed, the typical refused flank deployment. Their army is mainly placed on the right, that's their strongest side, charging forward down that flank, or even up the middle, especially the middle, is disastrous and definitely make us lose, no matter the list.

The Basic Idea - how to take advantage of the terrain and their deployment
So what I'm getting at is, we deploy all on the left, and not beyond the third square. They've made the mistake of spreading wide, the middle has a two level building, and our left has the most cover (ie forests). It is the safest side to march down, and the most difficult side for them to shoot us at.

Basically, the plan is we will use 3000pts of units to crush SM and Archers on the left, now they're down (x-pts) and probably trying to rush their right flank in to reinforce or counter us. By then, we will reform and get ready to crush their smaller army with our 3000pts army.

Dark Elf don't fight fair, and this is proof!

Oh and a side note. The reason I would personally deploy all on one flank is to render one unit of their archers redundant. Deploying out of their shooting range, and still can march down to their deployment zone, they'll either have to reposition (thereby pulling his line out of order) or stay there to hog that hill and twiddle their thumbs until we're done on the left and marching down their right side.

The Deployment

The xBows
I would deploy the xBows 12x2, half in the third square's forest, the other half poking out, maybe a bit past the halfway line. Angled facing their right flank.

Spearelves
The Spears will deploy next to the xBows, they have two purposes until the left flank is crushed. To provide a walking body to absorb shots from the archers on the right flank if they somehow get into range. And basically a flank support unit against incoming chariots etc. The enemy middle deployed units will undoubtedly cause some problems to our mass left flank swarm. So the spears will work in conjunction with the Hydra and Chariots to counter this threat.

Harpies
They probably want to be near the middle of the deployment zone too, because they'll mainly need to redirect and slow down enemy units coming in from the right and middle side of the board.

The rest of the stuff
Somewhere in that space on the left flank, Corsairs and Executioners want room to run down the field as fast as possible. The sooner they get into combat, the less shooting and magic we'll suffer, not to mention the less chance for the enemy to counter charge us.

Well, something like that ^^

P.s i do apologise for the lack of detail near the end, kind of started drifting off when my friends dragged me into a game of LoL. So i'll try and expand on it a bit more tomorrow. But at least the general idea is listed down.

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:11 pm

BRILLIANT! I'm so happy to see that this thread has not dissolved: I have sadly been on a hiatus once again (I'm afraid its just how I roll :lol:

) and have been having random jobs and no gaming/forum browsing/writing time so apologies to all involved.

Before I read Meteor's thread and respond in kind to the newly responsible Devil's Reject (good job and thank you!

) and best wishes to Grabuge (hope you return soon buddy!), I'll be putting some consideration into my tactics - though I might be VERY slow at replying - if at all as I am currently attending an INTENSIVE course to learn to teach english to foreign students, which is very taxing time/energy wise.

OK enough explaining/creating excuses

I wanted to raise another (hopefully constructive) point which I feel could be good for this thread: I think it might be interesting to constructively critique one anothers list choices - perhaps as a conclusion to the whole piece: obviously nothing personal (thats not constructive) and by trying not to go off on tangents, but I think having feedback is always a good thing and can help round out perspectives. Though please correct me if you think otherwise!

Right, I must now to return to Vilebrier - the outer walls are underattack by a pack of Manticore that I am keen to entrap and add to my menagerie...

edit: am I right in thinking that the arch mage and mage are placed within the units next to them? Or are they shouting "GETCHA FREE VPs HERE!". For future reference Dark Reject, if you select the unit you wish to place inside another and then select 'ATTACHED' then a drop down menu should appear with the names of the other units in the army: select one and it'll be placed there. You should then (whilst holding CTRL) be able to place the 'model' where ever you wish within the unit - eg. front rank, one model in from the flank (though you have to guess where this would be as you drag and move where the 'model' is placed). If you use Chronicler for Batreps then it will mean that this 'model' moves and remain in the exact same relation inside the unit - regardless of wheeling (its frontage wheels with the unit too) etc. Clever stuff eh?! There's also an expansion pack (free) with loads of extra terrain!

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:29 am

P.s i do apologise for the lack of detail near the end, kind of started drifting off when my friends dragged me into a game of LoL. So i'll try and expand on it a bit more tomorrow. But at least the general idea is listed down.

I'll be putting some consideration into my tactics - though I might be VERY slow at replying

Take your time, I dont see any need to rush this. Better that it is kept going than die just because people are not replying the moment that someone else posts.

I think it might be interesting to constructively critique one anothers list choices - perhaps as a conclusion to the whole piece: obviously nothing personal (thats not constructive)

I ment to include something like that. I think it should come before the list is chosen next time (seems like the right time to do it). But if anyone wants to make any comments on any lists (not just the one I chose to use for this scenario) then go right ahead.

As for the Mage and Arch Mage, I did not put them in to units. They may jump into units in turns to come but for now they asked me if I could give them a little more freedom (that and I got frustrated trying to line them up with the units themselves haha). I did manage to line the BSB and General up inside the Dragon Princes pretty easily, even if I did have to do it by increasing the unit size then covering a couple of the spaces up with the heroes haha. Thanks for the tip on how to get them into the units properly though!

Sweeping death · Post by **Sweeping death** » Sat May 05, 2012 1:20 pm

I do agree with Meteor on the refused flank tactic, with enphasis on our left flank, where the enemy is weaker and has his archmage!

However, in a normal game, we wouldn´t have the advantage of having the opponent deploying all his stuff first and than be able to simply respond to it, so I´m not sure this should be handled here.

To the specifics, I´d put the rxb with lv. 2 metal sorc. in the rightmost wood, facing the Dragon Princes. This protects them from the archer shooting and from the DP charge, while having searing doom and mass rxb fire threatening the DP.

On that flank, I´d also keep a unit of harpies behind the woods to redirect/slow down the DPs later.

Both our chariots go centrally, as they are a threat to asf HE blocks, together with the Spears as defensive anvil to protect the advancing shock units on our left. COB and the other harpies behind them.

The Hydra goes in the central wood, protected against bow fire and ready to race forward far away from the DPs.

Corsairs and Excutioners go centre-left of the building, which they´l use later to cover their right flank. The Execs could later occupy the building. They strike last anyway and in the building the enemy spears don´t have ranks/SCR and should the DP come to the centre it makes it more difficult for them.

I have been thinking of having the Execs on the right instead, to attack the DPs once they advance against the rxbs. That would mean a more balanced deployment (no refused flank) though.

So, from left to right:

Hy, Cor + lv 4, Execs, Sp, COC, COC, rxb + lv.2
COB Hp Hp

Hydra, Corsairs and Lv. 4 should easily deal with SM, archers and lv4. Execs, Spears and COCs occupy/hold centre-left. rxb + lv 2 weaken DPs. Harpies slow them down. After our left flank overwhelms the enemy, it swings round to the centre using the building as pivot/cover.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:27 am

Not really too sure where to take this thread so if anyone has any ideas please put them forward haha, trying to keep this thread alive.

Seems like the general idea is to focus on collapsing the left flank and working around from there. I'll post the High Elf army list and see if this changes any ones plans of attack. Sorry for those that don't know what the magic items do but I've got a feeling a fair few of you will either have the High Elf book or have a general idea.

Here's the list:

Prince on barded Steed,AoC,RGoH ,Dawnstone, GW, High magic Shield of saphery 281

AM L4 Light Forlaiths Robe Silver wand,Loremaster's cloak spells 0,2,4,5,6 360

BSB barded Steed,Armour of slivered steel,Potion of foolhardiness.GW 184

L2 Mage seerstaff High shield Flames of Phoenix 165

40 spears in 8 ranks of 5: FC Lion Standard 410

2x14 archers: musician 346

2 Lion Chariots 280

15 Phoenix Guard: FC BoSorcery 305

10 Dragon Princes: FC 350

10 Swordmasters banner musician 168

3 Great Eagles 150

Might or might not change peoples ideas, never know.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:45 am

It's probably dead lol. The idea was brilliant, but I think people probably had lost interest in it by now sadly

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu May 31, 2012 6:55 am

Hmm, yea probably right. Bit too much for everyone I think. Owell, nothing wrong with smaller things like this somewhere along the line so I'll put some thought into it. Might go steal some ideas from the ogre site, they always had pretty decent threads going on while I was there a few years ago.