Unofficial 7th ed. Cult of Slaanesh list

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Weenth
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Unofficial 7th ed. Cult of Slaanesh list

Post by Weenth »

Hi to all! :) After long time of lurking I decided to bring some input to DE community ;)

MAIN IDEA:
- for me Cult of Slaanesh is a very fluffy idea and also much more appealing - both modelwise and gamewise - than ‘vanilla’ Dark Elves or Slaaneshi Chaos list (be it Daemons or Mortals). Since it looks like GW is going to leave it behind with the rest of SoC, I decided to make unofficial 7th ed. CoS Army List.

- In 6th ed. CoS was more competitive than basic DE list. Partially because of resemblance to 6th ed. Chaos (‘Sure, half of units is overcosted, but we have many to choose from, so the other half leaves us with enough decent choices’). Now 2 of ‘component armies’ got better, soon it will be all 3 of them. I wanted to make a list that will incorporate new rules - and also new options from DoC - without making CoS list overpowered.

- For obvious reasons this list is bound to change at least a little when WoC AB appears.


SOURCES:

Cult of Slaanesh pdf (CoS) - http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/d ... mylist.pdf

Mengil Manhide’s Manflayers (MM - DoW) - http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/d ... layers.pdf

7th ed Daemons of Chaos Army Book (DoC)

7th ed Dark Elves Army Book (DE AB)

6th ed Hordes of Chaos Army Book (HoC)

6th ed Hordes of Chaos additional special characters (HoC SC) - http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofch ... characters

I didn’t use Warriors of Chaos get-you-by list, as it solves little to none problems in CoS list and is rumoured to have little to do with final 7th ed. WoC list. Instead I did my own modifications, inspired by both g-y-b list and 7th ed WoC list rumours from Warseer.


ISSUES ADDRESSED WITH THE NEW LIST:

- general mainstreaming of unit rules (including Mengil’s Manflayers) with 7th ed Army Books.

- In 6th ed. Devotees of Slaanesh were a no-brainer compared to Daemonettes. In 7th Daemonettes got better, but adding Eternal Hatered to Devotees destroys the balance again. Hence 1 A less for Devotees. They still seem good for their price.

- In similar way, there was hardly any reason (except fluff) to take Marauders over DE Warriors and with 7th DE AB it is true even more. So in CoS list DE spearmen cost a little more, marauders less and can re-roll psychology tests, which is rumoured to be general army rule for 7th WoC.

- Warriors and Knights of Chaos were overcosted. Instead of reducing their basic cost, I decided to give them built-in Mark of Slaanesh. After all they don’t have the option not to buy it in CoS list, and effectively it gives them point reduction comparable to the one they got in g-y-b WoC list.

- Another problem were the Shades - in 6th ed DE AB they were basic scouts, so moving them to core and Dark Riders to special wasn’t problematic. It also helped giving the list more distinct feel - more of elite infantry army. Now 7th ed Shades have better stats and more equippement options so they don’t quite fit the core slot. But without them the army lacks any more mobile core unit and most of the core choices are fragile for their price. Hence furies in core, resembling the role of harpies in main DE list.

- New entries - the list includes Heralds & Fiends of Slaanesh which weren’t in HoC book. It also includes special characters other than Morathi - the Masque from DoC, as well as Dechala and Azazel from GW webpage.


QUESTIONS, DOUBTS & VARIANTS:

CHARACTERS
- I hope Dechala and Azazel will appear in 7th ed. WoC AB, till then I modified them slightly, as they seemed a little bit overcosted for what they did (also Dechala, rumored to be of High Elf origin, just begged for ASF ;) ). Not sure if including Azazel is a good idea, as there is no regular Daemon Prince entry in the list, but from fluff perspective they both seem ok.

- Anointed Daemonic Gifts list is much longer than in previous edition. I didn’t spot any nasty combos so far, but if there are any some gifts need to be removed.

- 6th ed. Steed of Slaanesh - Currently ommited totally. Maybe it should be included under new name as character mount option? Mayby for Anointed only?

UNITS
- Make furies 0-1 Special choice and move either Shades or Dark Riders to core.
Moving DR to core removes the ‘core infantry’ character of original CoS list.
Shades on the other hand in 7th ed are IMHO simply too good for a core unit.
So if either of these becomes core, they need to be restricted in some way. Dunno how: 0-1 core seems a bit daft and ‘doesn’t count toward minimum core’ AFAIK is only used for beast or underdog unit types in other AB - not quite fitting DR, Shades even less.

- Mengils’ Manflayers don’t seem to need price change. Eternal Hatered makes them better, but still they come out on par with similiary equipped new shades (manflayers have h.a. instead of l.a., poison and WS 4 instead of 5, while costing 1 point more). Although maybe they should be priced at 20 pts each?
Mengil himself is another thing. If simply treated as old DE Noble and now DE Master, he should cost more (18 pts if his crossbow-pistol=repeater handbow). But in last edition he seemed overcosted. I tried to split the main unit cost (287 for Mengil and 5 Manflayers) and it looks like this:
# Mengil w/ h.a., gw, crossbow pistol & dark venom = 96
# 5 Manflayers - 95
# Standard bearer & Musican 14+7 = 21
# Banner of Kalad (just -1/ -2 when over 12” to hit when shot effect, assuming scouting is included in basic manflayers price) = 75

High Elves (in 6th ed, don’t have 7th ed AB) pay 30 points for -1 to hit when shot effect. Even considering their cheaper magic items, additional 45 points for -1 to hit over 12” seems to much to me. In 7th ed. rules, without altering total cost and giving Mengil additional handbow, the banner comes out at around 55 pts, which seems right to me.

- Fiend of Slaanesh and Spawn of Slaanesh - aren’t they a bit too similiar? Maybe remove one of them from the list (probably Spawn)


As I don’t have much means in the way of playtesting this list (I play rarely and mainly against HE & WE) I’d be grateful to anyone who wants to try it out. Any other feedback is also welcome. :) Particulary is there someone with DoC AB, who might check if I didn’t make any mistakes, as I’m using notes from Warseer and my memory after reading DoC at my LGS. ;)
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Weenth
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Post by Weenth »

ARMY SPECIAL RULES

As in CoS, except:

- +1 to cast spells for sorceresses is no loger valid. Use normal 7th ed. DE rules (i.e. no dice limit & 0-spell allowing more power dice) instead.

- When referring to spell lore of Slaanesh, dark elf and mortal chaos spellcasters use lore of slaanesh from HoC. Daemonic spellcasters use daemon lore of slaanesh from DoC.

- Instead of HoC rules for Marks of the Dark Gods, use the following:
* For daemonic characters and units use approtiate rules from DoC.
* To DE & mortal chaos characters/units Mark of Slaanesh gives immunity to psychology. Cost - if needed - is given in approtiate entries.

Narcotic Fumes - works exactly like 6th ed. Soporific Musk (HoC). Name changed due to new rules for Soporific Musk

MAGIC ITEMS

- Magic items printed in CoS are no longer valid. Dark Elf magic items are the ones listed in DE AB.

- For reference:
Slaanesh magic items from HoC are:
Chaos (Slaanesh) Daemon Sword, Whip of Pleasure, The Beguiling Gem, Bindings of Slaanesh, Sceptre of Dominion, Pendant of Slaanesh, Rapturous Standard

Chaos Magic Items (available only to Aspiring Champion & mortal chaos units) from HoC are:
Berserker Sword, Rending Sword, Blade of Blood, Soul Cleaver, Chaos Runeshield, Aromur of Tortured Souls, Armour of Damnation, Bane Shield, Crimson Armour of Dargan, Crown of Everlasting Conquest, Amulet of Chaos, Gaze of the Gods, Book of Secrets, Chalice of Chaos, Helm of Many Eyes, Banner of Wrath.


ANOINTED DAEMONIC GIFTS
- Soulthrister (DoC)
- Tormentor (DoC) [*or is it called Temptator?]
- Soul Hunger (DoC)
- Enrapturing Gaze (DoC)
- Allure of Slaanesh (DoC)
- Siren Song (DoC)
- Soporific Musk (DoC)
- Torment Blade (DoC)

[*all above are KoS Daemonic Gifts from DoC, right?]

- Narcotic Fumes - rules/cost as Soporific Musk (HoC)
- Avatar of Slaanesh (CoS)
- Quickening Blood (CoS)
- Aura of Slaanesh - works as Allure of Slaanesh (CoS). Name changed due to new rules for Allure. [*AFAIK there is no Aura of Slaanesh special rule in DoC?]


[Below are only new/modified rules/costs/slot requirements. Other than this, rules from respective sources apply (for example: 2 RTB can be taken as 1 rare choice)]


LORDS

MORATHI (DE AB) - apply all modifications listed in CoS, except she is not the only special character that can be used.

AZAZEL - PRINCE OF DAMNATION (HoC SC) - 555 pts
Takes one lord slot
MV 8
Daemonic Gifts: Daemonblade (no AS), Tormentor[*name?]
Special Rules: Daemonic; Large Target; Terror; Always Strikes First; Fly; US 3

SUPREME SORCERESS (DE AB)
May take Mark of Slaanesh at +25 pts
If so, may ride a Steed of Slaanesh + 25 pts (DoC)

DRUCHII ANOINTED (CoS) - 250
Eternal Hatred (instead of: Hates High Elves)
Same shooting weapon options/costs as DE Dreadlord (DE AB), i.e. repeater crossbow (10 pts), repeater handbow (8 pts) or 2 repeater handbows (16 pts)
May ride a Cold One (30 pts), Dark Steed (18 pts), a Barder Chaos Steed (24 pts) or a Steed of Slaanesh (25 pts, DoC)
May choose gifts from Anointed Daemonic Gifts list, Dark Elf magic items and Slaanesh magic items (HoC) to a total of 100 pts.

0-1 KEEPER OF THE SECRETS (DoC)


HEROES

THE MASQUE (DoC)
Counts as Herald of Slaanesh, so if you field her, you cannot have a regular one.

DECHALA THE DENIED ONE (HoC SC)
Takes one hero slot
Special Rules: Mark of Slaanesh (ItP), Poison, Dances (HoC SS), Always Strikes First

MASTER (DE AB)
May not take Sea Dragon cloak.
May take Chaos armour at +10 pts.
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +20 pts
If so, may ride Steed of Slaanesh at +25 pts (DoC)

SORCERESS
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +20 pts
If so, may ride Steed of Slaanesh at +25 pts (DoC)

0-1 ASPIRING CHAMPION OF CHAOS (HoC)
May not be given the Army Battle Standard.
Must have the Mark of Slaanesh.

0-1 HERALD OF SLAANESH (DoC)
May not be given the Greater Icon of Chaos. [*right name?]
May not ride in Chariot

CORE UNITS

DARK ELF SPEARMEN (DE AB) - 7 pts
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +20 pts
Upgrade one Spearman to Muscian for +4 pts
Upgrade one Spearman to Standard Bearer for +8 pts
Upgrade one Spearman to Lordling for +8 pts

DARK ELF CROSSBOWMEN (DA AB)
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +20 pts

1+ DEVOTED OF SLAANESH (CoS)
Devoted - 1 basic A (2 with 2nd HW)
Mistress - 2 basic A (3 with 2nd HW)
Eternal Hatred (instead of: Hate High Elves)
Narcotic Fumes

MARAUDERS OF CHAOS (HoC) - 4 pts
Hardened Northfolk - May re-roll failed psychology tests
Upgrade one Marauder to Muscian for +4 pts
Upgrade one Marauder to Standard Bearer for +8 pts
Upgrade one Marauder to Cheftain for +8 pts

DAEMONETTES OF SLAANESH (DoC)

FURIES (DoC)
Do not count toward minimum core reqirements


SPECIAL UNITS

SHADES (DE AB)
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +10 pts

DARK RIDERS (DE AB)
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +10 pts

COLD ONE KNIGHTS (DE AB)
May take the Mark of Slaanesh at +20 pts

CHAOS WARRIORS OF SLAANESH
Rules&cost as Warriors of Chaos (HoC), except:
Mark of Slaanesh (no additional cost)
Cannot be upgraded to Chosen.

SEEKERS OF SLAANESH (DoC)

0-1 MENGIL MANHIDE’S MANFLAYERS (MM - DoW) - DoW Regiment of Renown
Eternal Hatered (instead of Hate High Elves)
Mengil himself carries two repeater handbows instead of repeater crossbow.



RARE UNITS

REPEATER BOLT THROWERS (DE AB)
May take the Mark of Slaanesh for +5 pts.

SPAWN OF SLAANESH
Rules&cost as Spawn of Chaos upgraded to Fiend of Slaanesh (HoC).

0-1 KNIGHTS OF SLAANESH
Take 2 rare slots
Rules&cost as Knights of Chaos (HoC), except:
Mark of Slaanesh (no additional cost)
Cannot be upgraded to Chosen.

FIEND OF SLAANESH (DoC)
Last edited by Weenth on Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Mordru
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Post by Mordru »

My .02 get rid of the manflayers or move them to rare. Get the shades back to core where they belong in the CoS list but deny them access to the 7th ed DE uberness. Add a special unit of "Pleasure Shades" with the 7th edition shade rules except they are always forced to take MoS.

This list would rock. Keep you fingers crossed maybe down the road GW will hook us up. In the meantime I will play my slannesh modelled dark elves with the new dark elf rules.
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Post by Phierlihy »

That's the problem with posts like this. Since it's not *official* you'll always get people who will say "no it should be like 'this'..." So if you ever win people will say it's because you used made up rules. Maybe you'll get really lucky and the Cult will find it's way into a future book. And if you can find someone who wants to play against a made-up army, I say good on ya. But for me, the Cult is dead.
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Post by Voodoomaster »

and also, the Hordes of Chaos book is no longer on sale, which means officially there is no Mortal Slaanesh Lore anymore, just the Daemon Lore.
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Post by Mr_piechee »

personally i think you should just use the Cult list exactly how it was and then replace the units with there new entries from the relevant books. then you at least know that the points are correct. then add backing the options in the cult list and adjust those points only, and then play with global rules to sort out things that are broken. if we can do this well i don't see why players can't keep using a cult list.
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Post by Prince daerlythe »

I must agree with Mr_PieChee here. We already have a CoS list. Let's stick with that.
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Post by Decker_cky »

Voodoomaster wrote:and also, the Hordes of Chaos book is no longer on sale, which means officially there is no Mortal Slaanesh Lore anymore, just the Daemon Lore.


Are Beasts of Chaos forgotten so easily? :(

I don't think you should have both types of fiends in the book. Choose one or the other, but both is too much.

Other tidbits....you should have to buy the mark of slaanesh still for the knights. No reason for it to be free.

You should change the HoC references to the WoC list, which is available online.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/armylist/1/
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Post by Amarel »

Don't worry Decker - as long as there's a herdstone there will be beasts :).

With regards to the CoS list, I plan on trying to use the new army book with a little bit of re-naming. Much of my old CoS list survives quite well with the new rules and just a little bit of renaming:

Witch Elves are Devoted
Death Hag is a Devotee of Slaanesh
Cauldron of Blood is a Summoning Tub / Bowl of Slaanesh Soup / Cauldron of Smut / Psychic Spawn of Slaanesh with controllers; etc, etc and so on.

And Admiral Squidface looks Slaaneshi enough to use as a leader (if required).

In fact, looking at my two lists all I'm really doing is changing the Characters setup - no Annointed and dropping a Sorc, to be replaced with a Hag on Cauldron, a Master and an Assassin - losing my Marauders and Spawn and replacing them with min Corsairs and CoK, and a Hydra (which I still need to work into the theme) - and swapping the Furies for Harpies.

That's not so bad.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Amarel wrote:Don't worry Decker - as long as there's a herdstone there will be beasts :)

Amen to that!

I really really like your version Weenth - seems a tab bit powerful but I wouldnt mind playtesting for you if you'd like - I'm away on holiday for 3 weeks as of thursday but when I'm back I'll try it out and let you know how it turns out.

Seems a little lame that the old chaos book is now redundent and replaced by the WD Mortal rules. I was very fond of that book - the models were (in my own humble opinion) just... well, they made me drool lol! :D and the lore of slaanesh in that book was just super sick!

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Post by Survivor »

Looks like you`ve put a lot of work into your list Weenth. I am a fan of the Slaanesh list and welcome your input. As everyone knows, GW have given up on our Cult. Well, just think of it as us going even further `underground` than usual but we shall of course live on and one day return!
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Post by Crawd »

I know it's unofficial and fanmade but I don't see the point of recreating the Cult of Slaanesh. I liked how YourMumRang suggested the Cult, a "count as" with the official rules (link: http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55397 )

I wouldn't accept anyone to use it against me because it's unofficial and not like you'll be able to play the list in GW events. If some people let you play it, grats for you but most people won't.

The Cult is dead, we have to move foward instead of living in the past.
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Post by Amarel »

Crawd wrote:The Cult is dead, we have to move foward instead of living in the past.

It's hardly dead, it's just lacking official rules in the current incarnation of the game. We're like the Wood Elves of 6th Ed :D.
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Post by Weenth »

@ Dangerous Beans - Glad you like the list, thanks for volunteering. ;) I’m particulary interested in testing out certain aspects of the list, will send you a PM about that.


@ Mordru - I like your idea of two kinds of shades. I’d rather change the name of the core ones (to keep consistency with DE AB), maybye “Shade Younglings” or simply “Scouts”? But as it doesn’t affect the actual rules, it’s fully down to personal preferences. ;) The only thing that worries me, is that's another unit in an army which already has 15 unit choices (for comparison: HE - 14, DE - 13, WE - 11, old HoC - 15, DoC - 13). Still, worth playtesting I guess.

As for Manflayers I can write them out, but it’s pointless, as they can be officialy taken in any DE (including CoS) army as special choice. Mainstreaming their rules was the only reason to include their decription. I guess its worth noting in the list, that they are DoW choice.

@ Mr_PieChee - I think I didn’t understand what exactly are you proposing to do with units described in CoS (Devoteed, Anointed). Should they be used as is (which means they are, together with Manflayers, the only DE without eternal hatered rule) or modified (if so, how?) ? Could you elabour on that?

As for entries from other books, the reasons why I changed them a little are two:

- one is rumoured (in case of all mortal chaos units) and confirmed in WoC g-y-b list (Warriors&Knights) price reduction in original sources.

- second: as GW designers said themselves on a couple occasions, point cost is - to some extent - army specific, as it’s affected by what other choices you have. In CoS list ‘raw’ costs would mean you would have choic beetwen DE spearmen and marauders, which cost 1 point less, for a loss of 1 M, I, Ld, Spear, Light Armour and Eternal Hatered. And also have twice as expensive cg, no magic standard option and larger bases. No brainer choice, resulting in usless entry in AL and I don’t see the way of sorting it out only with global army rules.


@ decker_cky - MoS for warriors/knights is not free, but included in their price. Unit of 11-12 warriors or 5 knights with MoS in WoC g-y-b list cost the same as same units from HoC without MoS. I wanted to give them same price reduction as in WoC and fixed pv is much cleaner that ‘cost xx points, must take MoS for xx pts’.

As for other references to WoC list, I decided not to for a couple of reasons:

- It is not possible to remove all HoC references. There is no spawn upgrade or original ‘soporific musk’ rules in WoC list. Also they don’t get to use Slaaneshi magic, so I would need to reefer to BoC. Add to that the largly reduced magic item list with some strange pricing (enchanted shield cheaper than regular shield for example), and Aspiring Champion 30 pts cheaper than in HoC and you’ve got more problems than solutions from such reference, to what still is a temporary get-you-by list.

Of course, as soon as new WoC AB appears I’ll change the references and rules/cost where needed.


@ phierlihy & crawd - ‘count as’ doesn’t make it for me (as a side note, I think it’s easier to make ‘count as’ CoS using WE rather than DE) and I don’t like ‘vanilla’ DE enough to play it (I think it’s balanced, but ‘beasts and cheapest of all elves’ idea doesn’t appeal to me)

Also, as others have pointed out, lacking official rules doesn’t mean dead. I’m not playing in tournaments and am lucky enough to have opponents, who will agree to play against unofficial list, as long as they know it’s balanced. I might continue with 6th ed. rules, but ignoring all 7th ed. AB just seems wrong. ;)

I guess I’m not the only one who has it this way, so even unofficial update to CoS list - be it my version or any other - is of big use. Especially if its widely accepted - which means not broken and playtested to prove so.
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Post by Druchii77 »

Unfortunately, I think you will be accused of weighting your army list as you are taking the best of each thing right now. I honestly agree with the idea of simply using it as is with the addition of new DE updates. Putting new DE with new DoC will catch you a lot of crap.
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Post by Amarel »

I think it’s easier to make ‘count as’ CoS using WE rather than DE)

As someone with a fair amount of experience playing with / as Wood Elves of Slaanesh (WEoS) I'm going to have to disagree with this. There were a few obvious match-ups but there was also a lot of squeezing of ideas to do when it came down to the nitty gritty. Sure the KoS (Treeman) and Devoted (Wardancers) were a great fit, but three Spawn (Treekin) running around side by side? Also the magic was a terrible match and the magic items often just didn't make much sense.

Not that it wasn't a great list to use whilst the new book was still a long way off, but the current DE list is simply easier to compare with.
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Post by Weenth »

druchii77 wrote:Unfortunately, I think you will be accused of weighting your army list as you are taking the best of each thing right now. I honestly agree with the idea of simply using it as is with the addition of new DE updates. Putting new DE with new DoC will catch you a lot of crap.

If by 'best of each' you point to new options in the list (Herald, Fiend, Special Characters) I think I'd agree they make the list stronger. In case of Fiend I guess removing Spawn (or the other way round) evens it out.
As for herald, now that I think of it, refusing him from taking chariot might be in line, as lack of chariots was one of the 6th ed list drawbacks compared to both DE and HoC.
Special Characters - for me they are a way of bringing fluff and fun rather than more power to the list. If it's power, then they are simply too good for their points, so it's a question of individual balance, not existance of option for me.

On the other hand, if you suggest using CoS list with only DE rules changed, and keeping 6th ed. version of Daemons and Mortals, I have to disagree.
Undisputably both new DE and DoC in general are better than in 6th ed. Still, it doesn't say much, as they both were quite weak then and updating only DE and leaving daemons in 6ed version simply means they usually won't be worth taking (15 pt, 2A, s4, t3, 5+ daemonic ward unit with regular formation, no cg options and incapable of including characters - they look poor compared to devotees and opponents like dryads can easily take on them, while staying cheaper).

The way I see it it's rather about not letting the mix overcome each army's weaknesess and become all-efficent. Luckly, Slaneshii part of DoC army is very DE-like: while fast, its fragile and usually S3, max 4.
The WoC part of the army partially helps with that fragilness, but gives up speed for that, still is expensive and - in case of KoC - requires all rare choices available in 2000 game). On the other hand the list ommits most DE heavy hitters, leaving only CoK and gw equipped shades (expensive - even as for DE, t3, AS5, striking last unit).

So I guess without Hydra, Manticore, Dragon, Cauldron of Blood support, Witch Hag, Black Guard and without DR in core this list should even out with 'vanilla' DE. It's probably a little better than pure slaanesh DoC list, but at the same time weaker than full-pantheon DoC.
At least that's the way I hope it is. Playing some CoS vs DE or vs DoC games should provide more light on it. So still waiting for more people willing to playtest this list. ;)



@ Amarel concerning WE 'count as' list - I guess you're right, particulary about magic. I realised my preference to WE over DE was based on that list having better match-ups for units important to me (Daemonetees, Seekers and KoS - as these are the only ones I'm going to use without major conversions. KoS in his FW incarnation of course ;) ).
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